Thoughrs on the new Canon 5Ds & 5Dr

[TheDrift-]

Kind of torn on this...

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0348597696/nifty-fifty-canon-eos-5ds-5ds-r-first-impressions-review

Was looking to upgrade this year, Think i Still may go for the 5dmk3. I was mainly looking for better AF and ISO range.

 

[VirtualRain]

Kind of torn on this...

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0348597696/nifty-fifty-canon-eos-5ds-5ds-r-first-impressions-review

Was looking to upgrade this year, Think i Still may go for the 5dmk3. I was mainly looking for better AF and ISO range.

I have the 5D3 and it's plenty of resolution for me. I don't need more so these new cameras are not for me. They are essentially just new sensors in an existing 5D3 body.

The 5D3 has great AF and high ISO performance, but I find the Dynamic Range limiting. I'm hoping a 5D4 rumoured for later this year will up the game in this area.

 

[someoldguy]

Yup , it's a pretty big jump .I was toying with updating my 5D2 , figuring the next incarnation of the 5D would be around 35 MP or so . Now , I don't know . Probably the best thing is to wait until production versions are in the hands of the 'masses' for 6-9 months or so and then make a decision .

 

[Meister]

I was just about to make a thread like this.

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Yup , it's a pretty big jump .I was toying with updating my 5D2 , figuring the next incarnation of the 5D would be around 35 MP or so . Now , I don't know . Probably the best thing is to wait until production versions are in the hands of the 'masses' for 6-9 months or so and then make a decision .

The 5ds(r) are not the successors of the 5d III.
I am honestly not sure who Canon is trying to target with those two dslrs.

 

[VirtualRain]

I was just about to make a thread like this.

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The 5ds(r) are not the successors of the 5d III.

I am honestly not sure who Canon is trying to target with those two dslrs.

They're for photographers that print big... Studio and landscape. This is medium format territory. They are not for the average event, travel, wedding or enthusiast photographer.

 

[Apple fanboy]

There's always the D5 rumours if your interested as well!

http://nikonrumors.com/2015/02/05/first-nikon-d5-rumors.aspx/

 

[Meister]

They're for photographers that print big... Studio and landscape. This is medium format territory. They are not for the average event, travel, wedding or enthusiast photographer.

People that print massive big, don't want a MF camera and don't want to simply stitch.
Now that's what I call a niche market.

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There's always the D5 rumours if your interested as well!

http://nikonrumors.com/2015/02/05/first-nikon-d5-rumors.aspx/

I really dislike the D5 form factor, but that at least is a camera that makes a lot of sense for some folks.

 

[Apple fanboy]

People that print massive big, don't want a MF camera and don't want to simply stitch.
Now that's what I call a niche market.

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I really dislike the D5 form factor, but that at least is a camera that makes a lot of sense for some folks.

Same here tbh. Fine if your in a studio, but not something I want to lug around all day tbh.

 

[OreoCookie]

A 50 megapixel camera, that reminds me of the megapixel race for compact digital cameras a few years back. I really have my doubts about this, you really need, top notch glass (and no, just because it says L, it's not necessarily good enough), and probably also a tripod. I even find 35 megapixels borderline.

 

[BeamWalker]

By the time the 5Ds hits the market, Sony will probably have released 5 new A7 cameras.

 

[The Bad Guy]

For my studio work, these things would be just great. But at the price they are, I'd want to take them outside the studio occasionally and that ISO limitation just isn't up to par.

 

[MCH-1138]

A 50 megapixel camera, that reminds me of the megapixel race for compact digital cameras a few years back. I really have my doubts about this, you really need, top notch glass (and no, just because it says L, it's not necessarily good enough), and probably also a tripod. I even find 35 megapixels borderline.

I don't disagree, but isn't a 50MP full-frame essentially the same (or close to the same) pixel density as a 20MP Canon crop-sensor (much the same way as the 36.3MP D810 has about the same pixel density as a 16.2MP D7000)? So there are already crop-sensor bodies out there that require a similar level of resolving power. (Of course, with a crop sensor, you only have to worry about the center of the image.)

 

[paolo-]

People that print massive big, don't want a MF camera and don't want to simply stitch.
Now that's what I call a niche market.

Well, I guess it's the camera to get for anyone who'd rather get more detail at the expense of low light performance and speed. For those primarily doing studio/controlled work, it seems like a no-brainer to spend the extra 400$ to get the 5Ds over the 5Dmk3. - Product, food, portrait, fashion, architecture, landscape...

But I still find it an odd camera. At 50Mpx, only very nice glass will be sharp at 100%. It's not a practical camera like the D800 was, it's really a specialty camera. But it does fit in a larger Canon strategy: need speed, get a 1D or a 7D, need resolution get a 5Ds/r, needs are all round/video, get the 5D or 6D - and hopefully you'll want more than one body in your kit.

 

[yjchua95]

I was just about to make a thread like this.

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The 5ds(r) are not the successors of the 5d III.
I am honestly not sure who Canon is trying to target with those two dslrs.

Probably towards the people who jumped towards the D800 and D800E.

I dunno, I'm a part time cinematographer and a full time software dev, so most of the EOS line doesn't interest me, except the EOS Cinema line.

18MP on my EOS-1Dc is already enough for me, but I'd like to see how the dynamic range in the 5DS R stacks up against it, I'm not that crazy about the resolution.

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Well, I guess it's the camera to get for anyone who'd rather get more detail at the expense of low light performance and speed. For those primarily doing studio/controlled work, it seems like a no-brainer to spend the extra 400$ to get the 5Ds over the 5Dmk3. - Product, food, portrait, fashion, architecture, landscape...

But I still find it an odd camera. At 50Mpx, only very nice glass will be sharp at 100%. It's not a practical camera like the D800 was, it's really a specialty camera. But it does fit in a larger Canon strategy: need speed, get a 1D or a 7D, need resolution get a 5Ds/r, needs are all round/video, get the 5D or 6D - and hopefully you'll want more than one body in your kit.

Canon has plenty of nice glass (most of the L-series).

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People that print massive big, don't want a MF camera and don't want to simply stitch.
Now that's what I call a niche market.

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I really dislike the D5 form factor, but that at least is a camera that makes a lot of sense for some folks.

I actually love the 5D form factor, and I agree with you on the Canon EOS 1D/Nikon D4 shape, with a portrait grip. The 1D form factor is really cumbersome and heavy (and I carry a 1Dc with me quite often when on cinematography assignments).

If only Canon could make a 5D with 4K @ 30fps or more...

 

[paolo-]

[/COLOR]

Canon has plenty of nice glass (most of the L-series).

50Mpx will give more detail out of any lens. But I think we'll be getting diminishing returns on many.

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5ds/

The first image is gorgeous with the 70-200 2.8L but the second one with the 24-70 f/4 L is really not that great. Sure it's not the 24-70 2.8L and I think most of the L lineup will hold up well but the lenses that aren't super sharp on the current bodies will be disappointing on the s/r like some of the slow zooms and maybe the 50mm 1.2 (especially next to the sigma)

 

[OreoCookie]

I don't disagree, but isn't a 50MP full-frame essentially the same (or close to the same) pixel density as a 20MP Canon crop-sensor (much the same way as the 36.3MP D810 has about the same pixel density as a 16.2MP D7000)? So there are already crop-sensor bodies out there that require a similar level of resolving power. (Of course, with a crop sensor, you only have to worry about the center of the image.)

Just have a look how many lenses are good enough to get optimal image quality on a Nikon D810, that should give you an idea what kind of lenses are needed for Canon's 50 megapixel monster. And it's not Canon's inability to produce great glass, it's just that when most of these lenses were designed, I doubt the engineers knew that they had to be good enough for a 50 megapixel sensor. And don't forget about the autofocus system, more resolution also means it's that much more difficult to focus with the required accuracy.

Even if all of these technical problems are solved, how many people can really make use of that resolution. I'd say it's a niche of a niche.

 

[Meister]

Well, I guess it's the camera to get for anyone who'd rather get more detail at the expense of low light performance and speed. For those primarily doing studio/controlled work, it seems like a no-brainer to spend the extra 400$ to get the 5Ds over the 5Dmk3. - Product, food, portrait, fashion, architecture, landscape...

Maybe I am a bit thick, but what good do 50mp do for studio photography?
Yes, you got a nice detailed image then, but what for?
12mp is already plenty enough for a magazine cover.
And what kind of printer would print that large?

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Canon has plenty of nice glass (most of the L-series).

Not for a 50mp, they don't.
You need glass that can resolve that much detail.

 

[VirtualRain]

Maybe I am a bit thick, but what good do 50mp do for studio photography?
Yes, you got a nice detailed image then, but what for?
12mp is already plenty enough for a magazine cover.
And what kind of printer would print that large?

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Not for a 50mp, they don't.
You need glass that can resolve that much detail.

A 24x36 poster at 300dpi will require 77Mp.

Medium format digital cameras have been around for years that have offered 40-80Mp resolution. They have cost anywhere from $10K-$50K. With Canon clearly entering MF territory at a fraction of the price, it's going to cause some consternation for companies like Hasselblad.

And from what I've read, the biggest issue with pixel densities like this, is not the resolving power of the glass, it's keeping the camera absolutely still for the duration of the photo. You pretty much need to shoot these cameras with mirror lockup on a tripod in calm winds to have any chance of getting a critically sharp shot... perhaps a bit of exaggeration, but you get the point

 

[Meister]

And from what I've read, the biggest issue with pixel densities like this, is not the resolving power of the glass, it's keeping the camera absolutely still for the duration of the photo. You pretty much need to shoot these cameras with mirror lockup on a tripod in calm winds to have any chance of getting a critically sharp shot... perhaps a bit of exaggeration, but you get the point

That's what they write, but glass is an issue with a camera like that.
If you set up a shot like you are describing you might as well just stitch.
That's what Peter Lik does a lot and if it works for him...

 

[TheDrift-]

Thoughrs on the new Canon 5Ds & 5Dr

A 24x36 poster at 300dpi will require 77Mp.

Medium format digital cameras have been around for years that have offered 40-80Mp resolution. They have cost anywhere from $10K-$50K. With Canon clearly entering MF territory at a fraction of the price, it's going to cause some consternation for companies like Hasselblad.

And from what I've read, the biggest issue with pixel densities like this, is not the resolving power of the glass, it's keeping the camera absolutely still for the duration of the photo. You pretty much need to shoot these cameras with mirror lockup on a tripod in calm winds to have any chance of getting a critically sharp shot... perhaps a bit of exaggeration, but you get the point

I heard they have been working on ways to reduce mirror slap, eg the mirror is now on a motor so they can decelerate it rather than it hit full force.

I don't like with the 5d3 I am paying for a lot of video stuff I don't want.

I understand the af is slightly different in the new bodies something to do with the chip rather than af points. 1fps difference between the two is not a big deal to me, but that ISO seems as tho they deliberately limited it so not to compete with with their other models.

I was wondering how viable it would be to NR the pictures, then down Rez?

I am also pretty tempted to stick with my trusty 5d2 until the 5d4 comes out,

 

[sarge]

If you've ever tried to stitch together shots of a moving crowd you'll appreciate just how limiting the pano-stitching technique can be.

All my streetwork the last few years has been pano-stiched and this limitation I've imposed upon myself is a bit of a challenge that I'd rather not have to contend with. I've taken many shots that I otherwise would have considered successful but was unable to salvage them into a single unifited image. Although I should probably take advantage of the higher ISOs and high burst rate on the MarkIII, I prefer to work with lower ISOs to get as clean an image as possible. I'm printing these rather large and i want them to have presence when viewed up close. Working indoors is a lot more problematic because I still need to work with apertures in the 4.0 to 5.6 range to get the DOF I need. Admittedly though this use can be considered well within the niche market. Then again the Mamiya 7 was a niche camera that was every fine art photographers secret weapon ( medium format...I thought you were shooting 4x5)! Nothing could beat the Mamiya for portability, resolution and cost -the whole system could be had for less then the cost of the 5DS body. Still I'm happy to get 50mp w/o spending $25K. I'll take the blur from the mirror slap over the blur from panning quickly at slow shutter speeds any day.

This image was taken at in the ballroom of Hercules at Versailles, It is a stitch of 4 vertical panned images handheld. The hall contains some of the largest paintings in all of Europe at 4.5 meters by 9.7 meters so the market demand for super sized images goes back to at least 1724

 

[VirtualRain]

I heard they have been working on ways to reduce mirror slap, eg the mirror is now on a motor so they can decelerate it rather than it hit full force.

I don't like with the 5d3 I am paying for a lot of video stuff I don't want.

I understand the af is slightly different in the new bodies something to do with the chip rather than af points. 1fps difference between the two is not a big deal to me, but that ISO seems as tho they deliberately limited it so not to compete with with their other models.

I was wondering how viable it would be to NR the pictures, then down Rez?

I am also pretty tempted to stick with my trusty 5d2 until the 5d4 comes out,

I read the same thing about controlling mirror slap. Cool stuff.

Even though the ISO seems limited on the 5Ds it might actually be very clean and noise free at the upper limit of 12800... And then as you say, simply down sampling it will clean it up further.

However, the 5Ds is a specialized tool... unless you actually plan to print images at large size that can take full advantage of that resolution, I think you're probably better off waiting to see what the 5DIV has in store or picking up a 5D3 now for cheap. It makes me cry to see how low the prices have become.

 

[MCAsan]

So these product 50MP images. Nice but you can get a larger image with a M43 camera.

The Olympus E-M5 II will produce 40MP jpg and 64MP raw files....for seriously less money. The hitch is the target needs to be still as these large files are created by merging several shots inside the camera. And when you don't need high resolution images, you can use the E-M5 II's 2x EOV to do nice distance work also.

 

[torana355]

Maybe I am a bit thick, but what good do 50mp do for studio photography?
Yes, you got a nice detailed image then, but what for?
12mp is already plenty enough for a magazine cover.
And what kind of printer would print that large?

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Not for a 50mp, they don't.
You need glass that can resolve that much detail.

I work in the printing industry and specialise in Point of Sale and wide format. Trust me when i say we print even larger then a 50mp camera can produce.

 

[fcortese]

They're for photographers that print big... Studio and landscape. This is medium format territory. They are not for the average event, travel, wedding or enthusiast photographer.

People that print massive big, don't want a MF camera and don't want to simply stitch.
Now that's what I call a niche market.


I agree with both of you. If you don't want to pay 20K for a medium format camera then you can pay a little less than 4K for these new cameras. The new Canons will be something some landscape photographers will look at. They will also have built-in 1.3x and 1.6x capability which will mean you won't need to expand your lens inventory to longer range lenses if you have say a 70-200 lens. All that happens is that your RAW file decreases to a little under 20MP for the 1.6x shot. So some might find this a tipping factor in shelling out the money. I for one am very happy with my 5D3. When and if it ever comes the time when I am looking to up grade, who knows how farther mirrorless full frames will progress.