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Thoughts on 15" and 17" displays and brightness enhancing filters

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PDE

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 16, 2005
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the 17" MBP display doesn't seem as bright to me as the 15" but I'm quite happy with that since viewing angles are better and brightness doesn't shift as much. I have a feeling that it's the brightness enhancing filter that makes the 15" so controversial by directing all the brightness toward the middle and front of the display so that any movement of the user to the sides or up/down immediately distorts the image in one way or another. The 17", on the other hand doesn't do that to the same degree. It doesn't hav a great viewing angle, but it's perfectly acceptable in my book. Unlike the 15" I had which I couldn't find a optimum viewing angle when placed on my lap or on a desk near the edge when I was sitting close, the 17 doesn't get in my way, and I'm usually able to view the display at optimum angle, despite the limited hinge tilt. I also just noticed that the 17" display surface feels softer than the 15" more like what I used to see in the powerbooks. When you touch it with little pressure there is immediate distortion, whereas with the 15" you needed more pressure and it seemed harder - the filter?

I don't know much about brightness enhancing filters, but judging by the quality of the the two displays and their relative brightness I suspect that the filter is one of the main culprits in producing 'grain' and poor viewing angles. Anybody with more knowledge?
 
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Outside75

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2006
37
0
Interesting.
It was reported couple of times that the MBP display problem is related to the coating or this brightness enhancing filter.. Viewing angles on my MCB C2D 15'' are just terrible.. the constant need of moving my head aroud to get a decent, even view is simply killing me.

My question is - how exactly this screen is build? Is it possible to change the coating without changing the whole screen? Are this things separate?
 
P

PDE

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 16, 2005
2,484
18
Outside75 said:
My thoughts exactly... I never use 100% brightnes. Do you now how MBP screen is build?
Click to expand...


I seem to remember reading somewhere a long time ago that the film is just attached to the surface, but I could be wrong. who knows, the problem might be that the display manufacturer is purchasing low quality films from somebody or perhaps this is just the nature of all BEFs?

Given how my 17" looks (no grain, matte and not as huge shifts in brightness when moving my head), I don't think it's the anti-reflective coating that causes the grain and viewing angles. And since you can see that the grain is still when you move a white surface it would indicate the layer that is causing trouble is further toward the surface. it's either the anitreflective coating or the BEF...
 
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Outside75

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2006
37
0
pixelbright2.png


Anti-reflective LCD screens have an anti-reflective polarizer coating or overlay that are usually glossy. Anti-reflective screens provide sharper images, better contrast and richer colors.

An added benefit of anti-reflective LCD screens is a wider viewing angle. This is either a pro or a con, depending on your preferences. Some would prefer to be able to view their laptop or monitor screens from only a right angle, so their privacy is protected when using the computer in public places. However, for multimedia viewing (such as DVDs and presentations), a wide viewing angle would be needed.
Click to expand...

I wonder what they used in MBPs - we dont have "wider viewing angle"- thats for sure..

I found this on maccnn forum:
BOTH the matte and glossy displays have the grain/sparkle effect. It's the same LCD Panel - one has the glossy coating while the other doesn't.

The problem is that the anti-reflective coating that the LCD maker is using is causing this undesirable effect. For some bizarre reason, they included this anti-reflective coating under the 'glossy' coating of the glossy display as well (totally defeating the purpose if you ask me). Lots of manufacturers do this to try to reduce the glare even on the glossy displays - not sure why since a pro user needs to request or special order the glossy version knowing full well it's going to be reflective.

Compare a new MB and a new 15" MBP when both displays are off. The MB looks like a black mirror, where the MBP has slightly less glare - this is due to that lovely layer that produces eye-straining sparkle/grain. Personally, I'd prefer more glare and a smooth and crisp display.

Sure, the glossy display isn't as bad or as obvious as the matte one (when it comes to the grain sparkle), but it's there (at least on all the ones I've seen). Just open up Safari w/Google on a MB and notice how whiter and smoother it looks versus the current 15" Pro (I've not seen the 17" models yet).
Click to expand...

So what exactly is the reason of so bad viewing angles? The type of antireflective coating?
 
P

PDE

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 16, 2005
2,484
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Outside75 said:
pixelbright2.png




I wonder what they used in MBPs - we dont have "wider viewing angle"- thats for sure..

I found this on maccnn forum:


So what exactly is the reason of so bad viewing angles? The type of antireflective coating?
Click to expand...


Well, that's it. The macbook doesn't seem to have a brightness enhancing film and nor does the 17", or it's a weaker one. They all have anti-reflective coating i think. Both the macbook and 17" are slightly less bright than the 15" which, together with better viewing angles, would indicate that they don't have BEFs, or that they are using better quality/lower strength ones? I'm definitely not an expert, but it just seems like the problem is with the way the brightness is manipulated artificially. even when the display looks ok, there's something 'off' with it that I haven't noticed with other displays, including the macbook and MBP 17".
 
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ProMod

macrumors 6502a
Dec 29, 2005
566
51
I think all this stems from the fact that people see brightness and think it is a better display.

Studies have repeatedly shown that no matter the actual picture quality, people perceive the brightest display as the best one, such as when buying TVs. Hence the reason all the TVs in a store are on "torch" mode, with the brightness all the way up. I guess Apple jumped on this bandwagon, but should have known better, especially on their pro line, which should not be targeted toward the average consumer (but I think Apple wanted to).
 
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glhiii

macrumors 6502
Nov 4, 2006
287
142
Brightness, viewing angle

I had a 17" last-generation PBK, and found the screen to dim. My new C2D 17" MBP is much brighter and, for me, much more usable. I'd rather have a brighter screen than one with a wider viewing angle. I think that the MBP screens must take much less power than the Cinema displays, which are plugged in. If you think about it, the screen will be brighter with less power if the viewing angle is less, since the light can all be concentrated in a narrower angle. It's a trade-off -- brightness vs. viewing angle. Obviously, you can't please everyone -- Apple has made its own choice, and I'm happy with it, though I can see why others might not be. Too bad you can't adjust it (brightness vs. viewing angle).
 
P

PDE

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 16, 2005
2,484
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glhiii said:
I had a 17" last-generation PBK, and found the screen to dim. My new C2D 17" MBP is much brighter and, for me, much more usable. I'd rather have a brighter screen than one with a wider viewing angle. I think that the MBP screens must take much less power than the Cinema displays, which are plugged in. If you think about it, the screen will be brighter with less power if the viewing angle is less, since the light can all be concentrated in a narrower angle. It's a trade-off -- brightness vs. viewing angle. Obviously, you can't please everyone -- Apple has made its own choice, and I'm happy with it, though I can see why others might not be. Too bad you can't adjust it (brightness vs. viewing angle).
Click to expand...

You're happy with it because the 17" is pretty good compared to the 15"....
 
iW00t

iW00t

macrumors 68040
Nov 7, 2006
3,286
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Defenders of Apple Guild
glhiii said:
I had a 17" last-generation PBK, and found the screen to dim. My new C2D 17" MBP is much brighter and, for me, much more usable. I'd rather have a brighter screen than one with a wider viewing angle. I think that the MBP screens must take much less power than the Cinema displays, which are plugged in. If you think about it, the screen will be brighter with less power if the viewing angle is less, since the light can all be concentrated in a narrower angle. It's a trade-off -- brightness vs. viewing angle. Obviously, you can't please everyone -- Apple has made its own choice, and I'm happy with it, though I can see why others might not be. Too bad you can't adjust it (brightness vs. viewing angle).
Click to expand...

Get a 15" and try saying the same...
 
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puddle27

macrumors member
Nov 27, 2006
31
0
i don't think the problem is only to do with this brightness enhancer you all are talkign about. I am returning my MBP 17" for a refund and gong to wait a couple months and hopefully the issue will be resolved by then. the uneven illumination isn't very uniform, meaning it's not due to a viewing angle. i have a bright spot going down the center slightly to the right. a darker spot in the upper right hand corner and the lower right hand corner. a bright spot running horizontally down the bottom of the screen and right above it is a dark spot running horizontally across the screen. so, there's something up...is it software? hardware of the display itself (my guess)? or some kind of filter? i don't know and there have been some different theories here.

Does Apple know about this? do peole think they are working to resolve this? I surely hope so. i am sending in for a refund but hope to repurchase in a couple of months. APPLE! FIX THE PROBLEM!!!

if not, i may settle for an iMac though i really want a laptop. as a graphic/video artist, this display (pseudo)quality is unacceptable!

so the problem is not an easy fix n my opinon and they rushed these Core 2 Duo computers for the holiday season. i was looking at the display on a 17" PC laptop that is like 4 years old, and it's much better...perfect for a laptop.
 
iW00t

iW00t

macrumors 68040
Nov 7, 2006
3,286
0
Defenders of Apple Guild
I know this sounds corny, but I suggest everyone who is bothered by this to drop by Apple's website and send them feedback through the Macbook Pro feedback form.
 
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Outside75

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2006
37
0
http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-12-12/#6221

MacBook Pro Core 2 Duo Production Stopped: An Update - Lionel - 11:54:42 - Comments

Following our previous news, leading to numerous reports sent to us by users waiting for their MBP, we have collected additional information from our sources; and we think to have tracked most of the story down.
The main problem is linked to a quality issue with "Matte" LCD panels. It would affect both 15" and 17" models, and a large part of the production lot 9C62 (17") and 9C56 (15") of LCD panel are defective even if it does not involve all panels.
Currently, large distributors are advising Apple resellers to promote glossy LCD panel-based MBP, as it is already the case on the Apple Store. Only glossy-based display notebook can be shipped on time for Christmas.
There is also a problem concerning a BTO : 120GB HD 7200 rpm; current stock is running low and Apple is waiting for additional supply.
Most users having either a matte LCD display-based MBP or chosen the 120GB BTO have probably received an email from Apple informing them about a delay for shipping their order (at least one week). The priority orders are shipping, so manufacturing of MBP is running again, but the current stock of matte display will be insufficient to ensure production of all purchased MBP with this feature for Christmas time.
Click to expand...

slightly confused here... if its true - what about terrible glossy screens?
 
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Outside75

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2006
37
0
iW00t said:
I know this sounds corny, but I suggest everyone who is bothered by this to drop by Apple's website and send them feedback through the Macbook Pro feedback form.
Click to expand...

Done.. but are you sure that it will have any effects?

The other thing is - is it possible to change the MBP C2D Display? Can I just complain to Apple and ask for fitting a new LCD? Does enyone did anything like this before?
 
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Outside75

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2006
37
0
Looks like mistake.. Its just a rumor - but there is a loads of users who are unhappy with their displays so hopefully someone in Apple will notice it. What I dont understand why rumor says that only matte screens are affected? I have a glossy one and things like viewing angles are worst that on crappy Dell display Im using at work. Is there any kind of explanation apart from Apple trying to use cheap displays? Im annoyed and really hope that there will be something "official" soon...
anyway - even if this rumor is not true - its good to know that there are fed up users who are trying to do something about their issues.
 
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Outside75

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2006
37
0
Did you notice that Apple ppl deleted long thread about quality of MBP displays on Apple forum?
 
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