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Shirasaki

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 16, 2015
16,249
11,745
I already spent 2 weeks into this thing, but I now learn the pretty freaking hard way how immobile Time Machine backup is compared to some other alternatives.

Time Machine backup uses a nested folder structure to store all of those files, and create symbolic links for incremental backups, at least that's what I know. What I don't know is how problematic this mechanism is when trying to move an old backup to a new hard drive.

Either it is the issue of Monterey, or there's something horribly wrong with my backup, copying those folders to a new hard drive first takes 4 hours to figure out which file to copy (nearly 4 million items), then another 18 to 24 hours trying to copy those files. My original backup was on High Sierra, which was arguably far simpler and easier to deal with. But Monterey does something different. Right after I make the backup of my MacBook Pro under Monterey, the preparation takes 8 hours or longer rather than 4 hours. What's worse, Monterey seems to think there's way more than what it should've had. If I leave it untouched for a day, the next time I check my backup somehow has 20 million items inside in 2.73TB despite only having 4 million files in 190GB when reading it off of Windows.

And that's not all. The copying portion takes equally a ridiculous amount of time assuming the counting part is done at all. My longest run of this backup copy takes 36 HOURS and still going! It has somehow copied 8TB of data despite my hard drive only has 2TB in capacity. The hard drive becomes so warm it's almost feeling hot at this point. 47C I think.

I also use Acronis for my Windows PC backup in the past 3 or so years, with no issue at all. The good part is it uses a proprietary image format that makes migrating backups super easy: only one large file to deal with, or several smaller ones depending on how the backup setting goes. This whole Time Machine disastrous experience makes me wonder why I am stuck to it at all. A backup solution that does not count for hard drive failure is a failed solution because hard drives will not last forever, be it spinning drives or SSD. Maybe a folder-based solution is the easiest one to implement, but now here shows one of its glaring weaknesses: no portability.

I am still keeping the content of said Time Machine backup somewhere, but I will not trust its ability to reliably backup my Mac anymore. Time for an alternative solution. It saved my life in the past and I thank for that. But it is no longer sufficient for my needs, even though I am forced to give up system integration (the animation looks pretty cool ngl).
 

nathansz

macrumors 68000
Jul 24, 2017
1,611
1,839
I already spent 2 weeks into this thing, but I now learn the pretty freaking hard way how immobile Time Machine backup is compared to some other alternatives.

Time Machine backup uses a nested folder structure to store all of those files, and create symbolic links for incremental backups, at least that's what I know. What I don't know is how problematic this mechanism is when trying to move an old backup to a new hard drive.

Either it is the issue of Monterey, or there's something horribly wrong with my backup, copying those folders to a new hard drive first takes 4 hours to figure out which file to copy (nearly 4 million items), then another 18 to 24 hours trying to copy those files. My original backup was on High Sierra, which was arguably far simpler and easier to deal with. But Monterey does something different. Right after I make the backup of my MacBook Pro under Monterey, the preparation takes 8 hours or longer rather than 4 hours. What's worse, Monterey seems to think there's way more than what it should've had. If I leave it untouched for a day, the next time I check my backup somehow has 20 million items inside in 2.73TB despite only having 4 million files in 190GB when reading it off of Windows.

And that's not all. The copying portion takes equally a ridiculous amount of time assuming the counting part is done at all. My longest run of this backup copy takes 36 HOURS and still going! It has somehow copied 8TB of data despite my hard drive only has 2TB in capacity. The hard drive becomes so warm it's almost feeling hot at this point. 47C I think.

I also use Acronis for my Windows PC backup in the past 3 or so years, with no issue at all. The good part is it uses a proprietary image format that makes migrating backups super easy: only one large file to deal with, or several smaller ones depending on how the backup setting goes. This whole Time Machine disastrous experience makes me wonder why I am stuck to it at all. A backup solution that does not count for hard drive failure is a failed solution because hard drives will not last forever, be it spinning drives or SSD. Maybe a folder-based solution is the easiest one to implement, but now here shows one of its glaring weaknesses: no portability.

I am still keeping the content of said Time Machine backup somewhere, but I will not trust its ability to reliably backup my Mac anymore. Time for an alternative solution. It saved my life in the past and I thank for that. But it is no longer sufficient for my needs, even though I am forced to give up system integration (the animation looks pretty cool ngl).

i think time machine nested folder system has always been unnecessarily complicated and not good for portability but monterey has also done something different

i tried to move a system from a volume that had been on monterey back to big sur and migration assistant couldn’t figure it out trying once during instal and once post instal

either way the “new” big sur instal thought everything was sorted but the system and file structure were both mangled. even very old files were reported as having been created in the future. some files made it over and some didn’t

i had nothing important there that i didn’t have multiple other places anyway but i was surprised how bad it all was

i feel like there was a good few years where time machine was actually pretty reliable and also portable so i became pretty complacent. i suppose we may have to go back to do everything manually again
 
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Shirasaki

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 16, 2015
16,249
11,745
i feel like there was a good few years where time machine was actually pretty reliable and also portable
Yeah. It seems that until High Sierra, Time Machine backup is still pretty portable, based on my personal experience. But no longer since then.
 

Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
6,234
7,271
Seattle
I have always started over with backups when I move to a new TM drive. I just put the old drive away labeled by date and keep it as a secondary backup and then let the new drive start fresh.
 
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Soba

macrumors 6502
May 28, 2003
451
701
Rochester, NY
Yeah. It seems that until High Sierra, Time Machine backup is still pretty portable, based on my personal experience. But no longer since then.
When moving to a new drive, I've always used a drive cloning utility since copying was problematic and I didn't trust it. SuperDuper is no longer recommended for cloning Time Machine drives, but it does still seem to work for me just fine.

However, there were big changes to Time Machine starting in Big Sur; the old approach where Time Machine used many hard-linked folders was eliminated and Big Sur introduced file system snapshots. This is much less prone to breakage and is also much faster when backing up. It also now uses APFS-formatted drives and a special container on the drive, instead of HFS+. (One side effect is you can no longer store any files aside from your Time Machine backups on the drive.)

Your existing backups cannot be converted to the new format. Also, Big Sur backups cannot be accessed from Catalina or earlier. If you upgrade from Catalina or earlier to Big Sur, it will continue using your existing Time Machine drive in the old format (which I don't recommend).

If you have installed Big Sur or later, I recommend putting away your old Time Machine drive for safekeeping (or copying things off and then reformatting the drive as APFS, if you can set aside weeks of your life to do so, as I'm doing right now…) and just plugging in a new hard drive to start fresh. The experience is quite a bit better.

Like you, Time Machine has served me well over the years, but it always struck me as a very fragile kludge. Hopefully we've moved past that.
 
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Shirasaki

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 16, 2015
16,249
11,745
When moving to a new drive, I've always used a drive cloning utility since copying was problematic and I didn't trust it. SuperDuper is no longer recommended for cloning Time Machine drives, but it does still seem to work for me just fine.

However, there were big changes to Time Machine starting in Big Sur; the old approach where Time Machine used many hard-linked folders was eliminated and Big Sur introduced file system snapshots. This is much less prone to breakage and is also much faster when backing up. It also now uses APFS-formatted drives and a special container on the drive, instead of HFS+. (One side effect is you can no longer store any files aside from your Time Machine backups on the drive.)

Your existing backups cannot be converted to the new format. Also, Big Sur backups cannot be accessed from Catalina or earlier. If you upgrade from Catalina or earlier to Big Sur, it will continue using your existing Time Machine drive in the old format (which I don't recommend).

If you have installed Big Sur or later, I recommend putting away your old Time Machine drive for safekeeping (or copying things off and then reformatting the drive as APFS, if you can set aside weeks of your life to do so, as I'm doing right now…) and just plugging in a new hard drive to start fresh. The experience is quite a bit better.

Like you, Time Machine has served me well over the years, but it always struck me as a very fragile kludge. Hopefully we've moved past that.
I have decided to move on to an image based backup solution, which, carbon clone copier sadly, does not work that way. I forgot to image the drive before moving to a new one. Now My old time machine backup isn’t even working well anymore, which is just unfortunate. Also, Turns out it is kind of a huge mistake to just start backing up my MacBook Pro running big sur alongside an old backup running High Sierra. Oh well.

So far I can only find Acronis backup solution offers image based backup. But they have gone to subscription model, and perpetual license can only be sold through third party resellers. Tough life. Do you have any other recommendations for image based backup solutions?
 

Soba

macrumors 6502
May 28, 2003
451
701
Rochester, NY
Do you have any other recommendations for image based backup solutions?

Unfortunately, no. I don't use anything like this for backup. I suggest creating a new thread (perhaps in the "Mac Basics" section) asking this question and I'm sure someone will have a good answer.

One of the reasons I continue to use Time Machine despite its problems is because I have not found many other options that I like for backup software. I have a lot of data to back up these days and my storage continues to grow, so I might go back to removable media such as tape like I used a long time ago!
 

usagora

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2017
4,869
4,456
I have always started over with backups when I move to a new TM drive. I just put the old drive away labeled by date and keep it as a secondary backup and then let the new drive start fresh.

Exactly. So much simpler.

@Shirasaki Why not just do this in the future? Or just buy one of those HDD docks that let you clone drives, like this:

 
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