Time Machine disaster

[Speed38]

Gear:
2020 iMac, 500 GB SSD, 27” monitor, macOS 14.5
OWC Dual Dock with two Seagate HDD drives for a duo TM backup

Problem:
• I have a .Numbers spreadsheet titled Medicare_UMR payments.numbers into which I have been entering data since about 2012. Last time I made an entry was probably 90 days ago.
• The spreadsheet was located in iCloud Drive/Numbers.
• Today, it was not there so, using Find Any File, I searched for it using these parameters: Find items on all disks where [Name]
[contains] Medicare_UMR payments.numbers
• The files it found showed Creation Dates of 1/30/2020 and a Modification Date of 10/18/22.

When I opened one of those Numbers files and checked for Previous Versions there were none. It returned [No previous versions available/Error retrieving versions from Time Machine.

Am I truly dead in the water here? Are all my entries into that document for the last two years gone?

Would welcome any suggestions.

 

[Bigwaff]

The spreadsheet was located in iCloud Drive/Numbers.

You may want to try Cirrus app. It might help you discover the issue and recover your file.

Cirrus & Bailiff

Cirrus – takes control of iCloud, investigates and diagnoses its problems Updated! Cirrus has four main functions. It can download and evict (from local storage) items stored in iCloud so tha…

eclecticlight.co

Also, lots of info here on iCloud - the good and the bad.

Search Results for “icloud” – The Eclectic Light Company

Macs, painting, and more

eclecticlight.co

 

[Speed38]

A question for you, please.

I downloaded and ran Cirrus. Bailiff will not run on Sonoma.

Cirrus showed most but not all the folders in my iCloud Drive. Cirrus does not show the folders for Pages, Numbers, or Keynote. The spreadsheet for which I am looking was in the Numbers folder.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Time Machine should backup iCloud Drive unless you checked "optimize Mac storage." Then, it's a "maybe." From other clues you've shared, I'm guessing you have checked that option.

Instead of searching for the file by name as you describe, did you open iCloud Drive and then use Time Machine like it is supposed to be used... which is "Browse Time Machine" backups? That should present the "back in time" (stack of) windows, so you can start working your way backwards in time to try to locate the file you seek.

In general, I don't trust any cloud for important files, so I don't have much sense of how well TM does or does not work with iCloud Drive. If you do manage to get the file back, I suggest NOT maintaining it on iCloud but instead getting it on your local drive where TM will definitely maintain backups of it. Or if you need it on iCloud Drive, save it to a SECOND (local) folder too, so that (local) drive backups will definitely back it up.

Hopefully, your backup drive is a BIG one and it managed to backup that file at some point when it was either stored on your local drive or when it was considered "local" by the "optimize Mac storage" setting (if checked). Did you ever have a situation where you needed to work on it offline and thus put a copy somewhere (that could have been backed up)?

Do you perhaps collaborate on that file with anyone else? Maybe you can recover the copy they might still have and then get it back up to date?

In storing it in iCloud Drive, would it perhaps still be open on an iDevice (iDevices apps are often open in the background if not explicitly closed)... or perhaps open on another Mac you might own? Did you ever have to take it somewhere and perhaps put it on an external drive, USB stick or similar? If so, any of those options might help you get a version of it back if you can't get anywhere with TM/iCloud.

One more tip: if you do recover such an important file, get yourself a SECOND backup drive, so that your backup system is not dependent on a single drive. Having as little as 2 such TM drives in regular rotation dramatically increases your chances of recovery... especially if one of them is stored offsite and then regularly rotated with the one onsite so that offsite one is reasonably up to date. Easy losses like Fire/Flood/Theft will likely get both your Mac and your backup drive in the same event. But one more drive stored offsite is the ultimate recovery option against those common scenarios.

I hope you recover your file.

 

[Speed38]

Let me address the points you raised one by one, but first: serendipitously, a few weeks ago and since I had an empty HDD to hand, on the advice of others I downloaded Super Duper and did a backup. When I went to that backup and searched for my spreadsheet, I found it. It now resides in my Home folder.


• I have not checked Optimize TM.


• Yes, I went to [Browse TM Backups] in the manner you cited.


• The TM is a dual backup: I have two 1TB HDDs in an OWC dual dock dedicated to TM backups


• I did not collaborate with anyone else on that file.


On Bigwaff’s suggestion, I downloaded and ran the free Cirrus.app. It is very interesting to note that when I did so and opened the Cirrus file browser, it displayed every folder I had placed in iCloud Drive except every folder that displayed an icon: Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Shortcuts, Preview, and TextEdit; all these folders were not present in the browser seemingly indicating that TM does not back them up.

I’d be interested in Bigwaff’s take on that.

 

[diego.caraballo]

Gear:
2020 iMac, 500 GB SSD, 27” monitor, macOS 14.5
OWC Dual Dock with two Seagate HDD drives for a duo TM backup

Problem:
• I have a .Numbers spreadsheet titled Medicare_UMR payments.numbers into which I have been entering data since about 2012. Last time I made an entry was probably 90 days ago.
• The spreadsheet was located in iCloud Drive/Numbers.
• Today, it was not there so, using Find Any File, I searched for it using these parameters: Find items on all disks where [Name]
[contains] Medicare_UMR payments.numbers
• The files it found showed Creation Dates of 1/30/2020 and a Modification Date of 10/18/22.

When I opened one of those Numbers files and checked for Previous Versions there were none. It returned [No previous versions available/Error retrieving versions from Time Machine.

Am I truly dead in the water here? Are all my entries into that document for the last two years gone?

Would welcome any suggestions.

Did you try recover the file on iCloud?

Recover deleted files on iCloud.com

Recover iCloud Drive or iWork files you deleted in the last 30 days on iCloud.com or on your iPhone, iPad, Mac, or Windows device.

support.apple.com

 

[Fishrrman]

OP wrote:
"Let me address the points you raised one by one, but first: serendipitously, a few weeks ago and since I had an empty HDD to hand, on the advice of others I downloaded Super Duper and did a backup. When I went to that backup and searched for my spreadsheet, I found it."

Another Fishrrman "when is he going to get tired of posting this?™" reply:

Folks, here is ONE MORE EXAMPLE of why you shouldn't use time machine and SHOULD use either CarbonCopyCloner or SuperDuper.

OP: you don't need those tm backups. You've already seen how "useful" they are.

Take those two HDD's, and convert them over to SD backups.
Then, keep one "off-site" (not in the same building as the computer).
Keep the other near (in the dock is ok).

With my backups:
- my off-site backup is kept in the car (it's an SSD, kept in a sealed bag with a dessicant to absorb moisture, has survived winters and summers).
- my "close by" backup is kept in a USB3/SATA dock (like yours)
- I also have a third backup in a fire-resistant box down in the basement

One other thing:
I've read that "dual" SATA docking stations can sometimes have problems with the Mac, due to their control chips/boards. YMMV

 

[Mr_Brightside_@]

It's less helpful because for some reason they deleted it, but somebody on Reddit had a similar issue recently:

https://www.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/1dnpu22

It seems these files are not going into Time Machine. Whether or not that's intentional, I don't know. I would follow @diego.caraballo's suggestion and try iCloud data recovery. Contact Apple if that's not successful on your own.

OP wrote:
"Let me address the points you raised one by one, but first: serendipitously, a few weeks ago and since I had an empty HDD to hand, on the advice of others I downloaded Super Duper and did a backup. When I went to that backup and searched for my spreadsheet, I found it."

Another Fishrrman "when is he going to get tired of posting this?™" reply:

Folks, here is ONE MORE EXAMPLE of why you shouldn't use time machine and SHOULD use either CarbonCopyCloner or SuperDuper.

OP: you don't need those tm backups. You've already seen how "useful" they are.

Take those two HDD's, and convert them over to SD backups.
Then, keep one "off-site" (not in the same building as the computer).
Keep the other near (in the dock is ok).

With my backups:
- my off-site backup is kept in the car (it's an SSD, kept in a sealed bag with a dessicant to absorb moisture, has survived winters and summers).
- my "close by" backup is kept in a USB3/SATA dock (like yours)
- I also have a third backup in a fire-resistant box down in the basement

One other thing:
I've read that "dual" SATA docking stations can sometimes have problems with the Mac, due to their control chips/boards. YMMV

This is not helpful.

 

[Speed38]

Did you try recover the file on iCloud?

View attachment 2398281

Recover deleted files on iCloud.com

Recover iCloud Drive or iWork files you deleted in the last 30 days on iCloud.com or on your iPhone, iPad, Mac, or Windows device.

support.apple.com

Thank you for showing me that; I was not aware of those choices at iCloud.com and I see they could be very useful in the future. However, the spreadsheet for which I was looking was not among the recently deleted items displayed.

 

[Mr_Brightside_@]

How about just open recents in Numbers?

 

[Speed38]

Take those two HDD's, and convert them over to SD backups.
Then, keep one "off-site" (not in the same building as the computer).
Keep the other near (in the dock is ok).

One other thing:
I've read that "dual" SATA docking stations can sometimes have problems with the Mac, due to their control chips/boards. YMMV

I previously used Carbon Copy Cloner but when Apple switched to APFS it became so confusing to use that I stopped updating and using it.

Is SD capable of doing what TM does? I.e., allow me to go back weeks or months to find a version of a file which has been changed many times since it's creation? If so, is it fairly straightforward to do? As I said, I gave up CCC because it became too damned complicated.

So far, btw, have had no problems with that OWC dual-dock drive.

Since I have your attention, if you did not use a dual-dock drive and attached two external hard drives to your Mac via a powered USB hub, would that work? I.e., could you set up SD or TM to back up first to one then to the next?

 

[Speed38]

How about just open recents in Numbers?

One of the first things I tried: no joy there.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

• The TM is a dual backup: I have two 1TB HDDs in an OWC dual dock dedicated to TM backups

I'm glad you recovered your important file. To followup with advice offered in the prior post: RETHINK this as 2 TM drives in one enclosure- while better than 1 drive- is still virtually no solid protection from very real fire/flood/theft risks. Why? You basically have your main files and all backups at the same location. If that location burns down, is flooded, or thieves break in and take your tech, you lose all.

Add another drive, store one TM backup offsite and rotate it regularly with your current backup. Until you have a backup offsite, you are not very well protected.

And if TM is no longer your preferred option, same advice applies to CCC or SuperDuper. Until one recent backup is offsite, you are not very well protected. The recent OFFSITE backup is the most important link in this chain.

Some people argue that the offsite backup can be "the cloud" and that is better than no offsite. I'm a believer if fully controlling my data, so I prefer to store my own data "the old fashioned way" regularly swapping drives when I make monthly visits to my bank (safe deposit box).

Since I have your attention, if you did not use a dual-dock drive and attached two external hard drives to your Mac via a powered USB hub, would that work? I.e., could you set up SD or TM to back up first to one then to the next?

Yes, if you have TWO separate TM drives hooked up- as I do (too)- TM hourly backups become every other hour to EACH drive... meaning Drive A gets the next hourly backup then B the one after that, then back to A again. You don't have to think about it, nor do anything special. It "just works" and then you have 2 local backups.

If you want this dual backups, perhaps that OWC can be set up as JBOD so that each disc is independent of the other. If so, you can do this dual disc backup with what you already have. I've used OWC enclosures for many years and they usually have an option to set up drives like that. If so, you're all set with a simple change.

However, you still need a THIRD (in this scenario) to store offsite... and regularly rotate or refresh a backup and then get it back offsite again.


You had a near catastrophe this time. Take good action here and you won't have to worry about this again.

 

[Speed38]

You had a near catastrophe this time. Take good action here and you won't have to worry about this again.

Amen to that and in the process I must say I learned a great deal about TM and will know even more after I read the eclecticlightcompany posts on that subject.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Note I much appreciate Fishrrmans suggestions along these lines too. However, I have long-term experience with TM and generally no problems at all: basically dual backups every other hour of my main Macs with one recently backed up disc offsite and regularly rotating. I'll also use a bit of cloud when traveling just as an "offsite" temporary backup of newly created files until I can get back and make them "local" and thus backed up in 3 places again.

And I'm no Apple fan here. I freely post praise & pans about Apple as I see them as a consumer (first). In my long-term experience, TM works just fine. The name of the game that has made it be like that is MULTIPLE drives with one always offsite.

I have used SuperDuper and CCC too and they are fine. I simply don't see them as better- just alternatives. I recall one backup thread having someone doing a mixture of TM and SD backups to more than a few drives. More backups is better than fewer, so if one has the storage, more power to them.

ONE MORE TIP: For incremental backup systems like TM, much greater backup space is better than minimums. You mention 1TB drives and that's likely too little. The general rule of thumb is 3-4X the total storage of all Macs in the household you want backed up. So if you have- say- 2TB total on your main Mac, that would be 6-8TB for each backup disc. If you have a desktop with 2TB and a laptop with 1TB, that would be 9-12TB or more per backup disc. Why?

Because the OTHER HALF of the TM benefit is how far you can step back in time. When a TM disc fills, the oldest versions of backed up files are deleted to make room for new backups. If you have substantial space, you have substantial history.

Imagine a scenario of that Numbers spreadsheet getting corrupted in a way that you don't notice immediately. TM or similar would backup corrupted version after corrupted version while deleting pre-corruption versions to make space for new backups. Then you catch the corruption (or big section of accidentally-deleted rows). In 1TB of backups, you might not be able to step back far enough to get the last "whole" version. But if you have the 3X-4X storage in place, you should be able to travel quite far back in time.

Many people seek out the minimum disc sizes for TM backups- often space that matches the space on their main Macs storage. It's better to get at least 3X-4X the total storage of ALL Macs to be backed up. That delivers the OTHER key benefit of TM in a much more solid way.

I hope this helps you and future readers of this thread too.

 

[Speed38]

One thing for certain and that is when these 1TB HDDs die, I will get 2TB HDDs as my Macintosh HD is 500 GB. That will give me 4X the capacity of the only HD I am backing up.

 

[Bigwaff]

I’d be interested in Bigwaff’s take on that.

When in Cirrus browser view and you are browsing "com~apple~CloudDocs" (iCloud Drive), at the bottom you should see an entry "up one folder". If you double-click, you get the listing of the parent "folder". Listed will be an entry named "com~apple~Numbers". Your document should be in that "folder" (at least based on your description). Whether it is the latest version of your document, I cannot say.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

OP that multiplication is on total storage. So if you supplement that 500GB with an external drive that you also want to be able to recover, add the 2 together and then multiply by at least 3-4X.

500GB can be plenty for some people but barely enough for others. As soon as you lean on an external, think of it as part of the system unless it never holds anything important if lost.

Also note that 2TB vs. say 5 or 6TB might be only $20-$40 or so. Even more storage buys you more history to browse. I see 10TB bare drive for $100 right now on Amazon.

 

[Speed38]

When in Cirrus browser view and you are browsing "com~apple~CloudDocs" (iCloud Drive), at the bottom you should see an entry "up one folder". If you double-click, you get the listing of the parent "folder". Listed will be an entry named "com~apple~Numbers". Your document should be in that "folder" (at least based on your description). Whether it is the latest version of your document, I cannot say.

Aha! I see. The copy of my spreadsheet I found there was the one from 2022, not the one that included some 2024 entries plus all the 2023 entries.

 

[KaliYoni]

One thing for certain and that is when these 1TB HDDs die, I will get 2TB HDDs as my Macintosh HD is 500 GB. That will give me 4X the capacity of the only HD I am backing up.

Now that you're thinking about the future, it might also be a good time to think about the kinds of data you need to backup and protect (for example: business vs personal and replaceable vs irreplaceable) and your risk tolerance.

My main computer stores a lot of files that I want to keep both secure and private. A lot of it is not easily duplicated or replaced. Consequently, I prefer to spend my time and money on preventive measures in order to avoid, as much as possible, having to go into crisis mode if (when) something bad happens.

So, I maintain backups using Time Machine and Carbon Copy Cloner, each on its own drive. The Time Machine drive is always connected. The CCC drive is disconnected most of the time. I do a CCC backup about once a week or before installing an OS update.

I do this for redundancy and to increase the chances of having a clean version of my entire setup in the event of a catastrophic failure or a security breach.

Your needs, of course, are your needs so don't worry too much about following advice from message boards if something doesn't feel right to you. Nobody here knows your situation better than you do!

 

[iMac2019]

Some thoughts on backups / restores.
We usually think that having backups or activating TM is enough.
The short answer is : no, it's not enough.

Previous posts have already given some insight ; what happens if the backup is lost, unreadable or corrupted?
What about if your machine has silently been infected by a virus and your files damaged or encrypted, as all your "trusted' TB backups?
Or simply a fatal power surge killing all sensitives electronic devices connected to the main (the 2020 imac + usb TM backup connected to it)

Unless you regularly test the recovery procedure, you're in the dark.

And it doesn't depend on the solution/software used, TM CCC SD iCloud or whatelse
(Especially since all we are doing is adding untested lines of code on top of untested lines of code - macOS).
Here examples of DRP : https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/i/7.3?topic=system-example-disaster-recovery-plan

How To Create an Effective Disaster Recovery Plan | The ITeam

Our professionals at The ITeam have created an extensive article on how to create an effective disaster recovery plan in 5 simple steps.

theiteam.ca

It may not rain today or tomorrow, but when it does, you’ll be glad you have an umbrella

 

[Speed38]

For the record, all the important data we could ill afford to lose is on my wife's MacBook pro and in addition to TM backups, she uses BackBlaze.

 

[HDFan]

Folks, here is ONE MORE EXAMPLE of why you shouldn't use time machine and SHOULD use either CarbonCopyCloner or SuperDuper.

TM is fine and has its advantages. Just don't use more than 1 in your 3-2-1 backup strategy.

two external hard drives to your Mac via a powered USB hub, would that work? I.e., could you set up SD or TM to back up first to one then to the next?

Yes. Although a bit safer to have disks on totally independent hardware. Haven't heard of a hub corrupting multiple attached disks but there is always a first time.

For the record, all the important data we could ill afford to lose is on my wife's MacBook pro and in addition to TM backups, she uses BackBlaze.

Good start on a 3-2.1 backup strategy.

 

[iMac2019]

As a simple solution, I suggest "versioning" important user's files that are regularly updated.
This way, if you delete (human error) or lose the file, you can always retrieve the previous one(s) archived.
Create a daily copy of Medicare_UMR payments.numbers and other important files adding the date at the end
Medicare_UMR payments.numbers.${DATE} where DATE=YYYY-MM-DD ; resulting in as many files as archived dates.

I don't trust any cloud solution for backup either, I prefer local storage;
what security and confidentiality can the service provider guarantee?

I've been TM long term user, and confirm TM is an excellent product, and never had the slightest problem with it.

I also have two others offline backups (common USB HDD drive) regularely updated.
The most recent backup is offsite at a relative house, while the previous one is in the basement.
You don't even need to have two identical / capacity USB Drives; as long as they are bigger than the current used storage space.

These two backups are cloned from the production env. (like a snapshot of the current system data + OS at a specific date)

Method:
1 - Create an USB macOS Installer https://www.macworld.com/article/671308/how-to-create-a-bootable-usb-macos-installer.html
2- Stick in the USB drive (backup)
3- Install macOS onto the USB drive (backup)
4- Reboot on it (with only freshly macOS installed)
5- restore data by Apple Assistant (from internal drive)
6- Check if everything as been restored (quick check beetween space usage internal drive and USB backup drive)
(Check the gallery image Photo, mail, etc ...)
7- Paste a label with macOS version and current date on it.
8- Store it.

If you can, the ideal is to regularly test your offline backup on a friend's imac; just plug it in and boot from it up.

Personally, I don't see the point of using 3rd party cloning software; Everything you need is already included in the operating system.

I have to say that this simple strategy is rather robust, since at the moment we're keeping data that's been stored for over 30+ years.

 

[Boyd01]

As a simple solution, I suggest "versioning" important user's files that are regularly updated.

This is indeed a very simple and effective solution that I practice religiously! For example, I created a filemaker database named "accts" about 30 years ago to manage all my personal finances. I was using a PowerBook Duo 210 and Mac IIcx as my primary computers at the time! I simply append a number and increment it each time I make ANY change.

Also do this with all my other important files, it's become second nature to me. I have folders named "old" wherever there are important files, and I just drag all these numbered copies there. Every so often, I do housecleaning and delete the older files.

This has really saved my butt more than once. But I also use Time Machine backups to a shared network volume, regular Carbon Copy backups to dedicated external SSD's and Backblaze. I started with an Apple ][ in 1978, got my first Mac in 1985. I still have files going back that far and wouldn't want to lose any of them.