To Intel, or not to Intel (iMac edition)

[synicalx1]

Howdy all,

I am once again asking for your purchasing support - my old-ish Windows desktop is now worth more on eBay than it cost me to build it in the first place thanks to the insane prices of GPU's recently. So I'm strongly considering selling it and going full-time Mac by getting a desktop.

Previously I have toyed with an M1 Mini and decided to return it after a week or so testing; gaming performance was very very average (which I fully expected TBH). So essentially I'm ruling out anything M1-based for graphical performance reasons. So now I'm looking at the current Intel i7 27" iMac since I was also considering upgrading my monitor at the same time and the iMac has a very very nice screen on it in addition to the option to configure it with a reasonably performant GPU, and also upgrade the RAM without paying the Apple Tax.

My use cases other than browsing/email etc is gaming (at 1440p, since that's half of 5k so scaling etc will play nicely) and very light development work so by far the most important spec on any new computer for me is the GPU. I know that the current gen 27" iMac with a 5700 or 5700XT will be good, but at the same time I'm concerned about Apple and app developers dropping support for Intel sooner than I'd like - I was a PPC user through the PPC->Intel transition and have been bitten by this before.

My only concern with waiting for the potential new iMacs is if the new ones only have Apple Silicon there's a *chance* I will be shortchanged on GPU performance relative to a 5700XT and simultaneously lose the ability to buy the Intel/AMD iMacs. eGPU's don't seem like an option for AS Macs so if the GPU performance is sub-par then I'm kind of stuck. Also having to pay Apple's prices for extra RAM would bother me a lot since I'd like to have at least 16GB ideally 32GB.

So with that context, my question is; if you were in my shoes which risk would you rather take - Intel being Old Yeller'ed, or Apple Silicon potentially not having enough beans for my use case?

 

[duanepatrick]

I will go M1 in my case if those two are the only option. Apple will still support intel-based macs but considering the trend, they will phase it out in the long run (this is my only reason lols).

But if am considering a gaming device, I will go for a Windows PC. Or if you can wait, there are rumors about the M2 chip which is a lot better and they say that Apple will release it at the end of the year.

Edit: Oh my. It's an iMac. M1 iMacs are not very good IMHO. If you do not have an option other than iMac, go for intel iMac.

 

[satcomer]

Depends! I don’t know your budget but just consider the new M1 is IMHO will keep you current as more and more big programs are going to new processes for M1+ future! Besides the laptop run time is much greater on M1 platforms!

 

[pmiles]

Howdy all,

I am once again asking for your purchasing support - my old-ish Windows desktop is now worth more on eBay than it cost me to build it in the first place thanks to the insane prices of GPU's recently. So I'm strongly considering selling it and going full-time Mac by getting a desktop.

Previously I have toyed with an M1 Mini and decided to return it after a week or so testing; gaming performance was very very average (which I fully expected TBH). So essentially I'm ruling out anything M1-based for graphical performance reasons. So now I'm looking at the current Intel i7 27" iMac since I was also considering upgrading my monitor at the same time and the iMac has a very very nice screen on it in addition to the option to configure it with a reasonably performant GPU, and also upgrade the RAM without paying the Apple Tax.

My use cases other than browsing/email etc is gaming (at 1440p, since that's half of 5k so scaling etc will play nicely) and very light development work so by far the most important spec on any new computer for me is the GPU. I know that the current gen 27" iMac with a 5700 or 5700XT will be good, but at the same time I'm concerned about Apple and app developers dropping support for Intel sooner than I'd like - I was a PPC user through the PPC->Intel transition and have been bitten by this before.

My only concern with waiting for the potential new iMacs is if the new ones only have Apple Silicon there's a *chance* I will be shortchanged on GPU performance relative to a 5700XT and simultaneously lose the ability to buy the Intel/AMD iMacs. eGPU's don't seem like an option for AS Macs so if the GPU performance is sub-par then I'm kind of stuck. Also having to pay Apple's prices for extra RAM would bother me a lot since I'd like to have at least 16GB ideally 32GB.

So with that context, my question is; if you were in my shoes which risk would you rather take - Intel being Old Yeller'ed, or Apple Silicon potentially not having enough beans for my use case?

Why are you even looking to return to the Mac platform? Certainly not for gaming, unless you intend to use bootcamp... and even with that, it's a far cry from what you could be doing on any PC out there.

It sounds like you dipped your toe back into the Mac ecosystem and then promptly pulled it right back out. If the new M1's didn't get you all giddy inside, the INTEL based Macs certainly aren't going to be an improvement.

Here's the deal. INTEL is going away. You're going to be forced into Big Sur and will likely never see the light of day beyond Monterey. So it really is a dead end platform on the INTEL side. Like basically right now. Unless you like operating in the past, buying an INTEL machine would be a mistake.

Your best option would be to wait for the next generation ARM processors to be revealed and to see just how Apple intends to deal with more pro level architecture. Right now, that is the big unknown. And I doubt we will even know the answer to that question this year.

 

[ignatius345]

If you're not having a burning need for that iMac, I'd wait through at least the fall to see if they come through with a larger "iMac Pro" or whatever they're going to call the successor to the 5K iMac. It's bound to have an upgrade from the M1 (M1X is the current rumor, I think) and I would be surprised if it wasn't 32" @ 5K or even greater.

 

[awsom82]

I'm on the same decision, right now.

XDR + M1 MacMini or iMac 2020 full spec.
The only reason for iMac it can run windows natively (yes, the games!!).

 

[synicalx1]

Cheers for the replies all - some very good points to think about!

So I guess to clarify my use case a little more; I play a few games, all of which run natively on Mac and some of which run on Apple Silicon natively - they all ran like garbage on the M1 even the AS native ones. I also have a side project that I have started developing an iOS app for but I don't want to keep doing that on my work MBP - so I want my own Mac to take care of that. I also need a new monitor and in my country a decent 5K monitor is about half the price of an i7 iMac. I also strongly dislike Windows and now I'm in a position to be able to get a Mac "cheap" by selling my desktop - so I basically solve all my problems with one device.

I'm quite familiar with Macs having used them for ~20 years, I just haven't owned an Apple desktop for a little while due to dropping some coin on a gaming PC for the first time ever ~18 months ago. All of my non-desktop devices are all Apple so going one step further into the ecosystem doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

I'm not super concerned about Apple dropping Intel devices all together, I don't personally believe that's a likely scenario any time in the next few years. If you think about their market saturation (presumably 100's of millions out there), the average lifespan of a computer, the fact that they're still selling Intel devices, and the amount of scrutiny Apple is under by various regulatory bodies/governments at the moment - I think they would be committing repetitional suicide by flat out dropping Intel support any time soon. Even back in the PPC days they still kept updating the old PPC Mac's for years after they stopped selling them and that was with a significantly smaller customer base. Also I'd be intending to keep this device for ~2 years so it's longevity beyond that isn't super relevant to me personally (other than it's resale value).

Having said that, I've got FOMO in two different directions now;

1. I wait for the ARM iMacs and miss the opportunity to get an Intel, only to find they don't suit my requirements and/or are substantially more expensive. In terms of performance I'd want something faster than an i7+5700XT by at least 15-20% for the same price.
2. I get an Intel iMac right now, and the ARMs come out sooner than expected and significantly exceed my requirements for the same money.

It feels like I'm getting into coin-flip territory here....

 

[Luis Ortega]

So with that context, my question is; if you were in my shoes which risk would you rather take - Intel being Old Yeller'ed, or Apple Silicon potentially not having enough beans for my use case?

I think you’re right on both counts.
apple are already starting to drop features available to intel macs in monterey and the initial m1 chip isn’t really powerful enough to run pro applications well.
If you can, wait for the introduction of the next apple chip to decide.

 

[duanepatrick]

Good luck with whatever direction you will take. Just don't regret it at the end lols.

 

[JCCL]

If just requirement is gaming, I would just write off a Mac completely. It's just not a strong platform for it, and I doubt that is changing anytime soon. Despite rumors and wishful thinking, I don't think Apple is doing anything to attract AAA game developers to any of their platforms.

 

[awsom82]

I would just write off a Mac completely.

I disagree, you cant configure a PC cheaper than a 5K iMac screen, GPU -- all in one complete solution, is the jam. only 5700XT 8GB currently sold for crazy $1300

 

[JCCL]

I disagree, you cant configure a PC cheaper than a 5K iMac screen, GPU -- all in one complete solution, is the jam. only 5700XT 8GB currently sold for crazy $1300

Might be, if you put Boot Camp and Windows on it.

 

[synicalx1]

You both raise very good points - Mac isn't great for gaming but I can play the specific games I'm interested in on Mac and for anything else I can leverage my PS5, Bootcamp, or GeforceNow if they ever finish rolling it out in Australia. But I agree 100% that for most people it's probably the worst choice for PC gaming due to way less dev support, even on Linux you have neat tools like Proton and Lutris that make it somewhat easy to get Windows-only games running.

And yeah the iMac is actually a pretty attractive option if you just tally-up it's components; If I was to upgrade my current desktop with a 5700XT and a 5k screen I'd be paying north of $3000AUD and a brand new iMac with a substantially nicer OS is going to cost me ~$3900 and about $1800 of that is paid for by eBay'ing my old desktop. Having said that I think I'd opt for the base 5700 model rather than the 5700XT - better $ per Tflop ratio and the performance is close enough.

 

[pmiles]

Consider this... even if Apple stops selling INTEL Macs, it doesn't mean you can't still get one. Hell there are a boatload of old Macs chugging along out there that have long since been put to rest by Apple.

When I said INTEL Macs are basically dead right now... I mean, there is absolutely nothing that Apple is working on at the moment to benefit an INTEL based Mac... so Monterey, hell even Big Sur, offers you nothing (sans driver support for the newer graphics chipset on the last INTEL Mac ever to be released, because there was never a driver for that chipset ever made prior).

You'll find plenty of INTEL Macs available through resale for years to come. Just look at all the old cheese-grater Mac Pros still out there being bought and sold to this very day. Going to be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy an INTEL Mac later too.

This sounds more like, I can get more money for my PC right now than I will if I wait a few months sort of scenario... in which case, it's a cash problem more than a hardware one.

If you have to sell your old one to be able to afford a new one, you can't actually afford one... you're just shaking the sofa to see if you have enough for a Big Mac at your local fast food joint.

 

[synicalx1]

Good point about the resale market - for some reason I hadn't even thought of that yet.

Although I have to disagree on Monterey not having anything in it that benefits Intel Macs - the only features that aren't coming to Intel is a few niche things and gimmicks that make use of the Neural Engine. The vast majority of new features in Monterey are coming to Intel's as well as AS, but who knows what will happen with the version after Monterey...

Not a cash problem, I'd just much rather get more for my desktop than less. We're talking probably around $800-1000 difference between the "normal" going rate and the current "GPU shortage" rate. I'd much rather get my iMac for essentially half price by being able to "sell high" with my old PC.

 

[Muckd]

I don’t think there’s much in it. They could both be out of date in 3 years. The m1 is nothing more than an iPad chip after all.
If Apple silicon follows iOS upgrade path. It’s going to be missing more and more features year on year.
At least you can always repurpose as a windows machine down the road with an intel iMac. If you become disillusioned with the forced upgrade cycle.
Keep in mind Apple silicon seems to be getting faster year one year. Whereas intel don’t seem to be doing much at a rate of knots.

 

[alien3dx]

Good point about the resale market - for some reason I hadn't even thought of that yet.

Although I have to disagree on Monterey not having anything in it that benefits Intel Macs - the only features that aren't coming to Intel is a few niche things and gimmicks that make use of the Neural Engine. The vast majority of new features in Monterey are coming to Intel's as well as AS, but who knows what will happen with the version after Monterey...

Not a cash problem, I'd just much rather get more for my desktop than less. We're talking probably around $800-1000 difference between the "normal" going rate and the current "GPU shortage" rate. I'd much rather get my iMac for essentially half price by being able to "sell high" with my old PC.

The best is build in imac or mac pro whom want to resell with lower value .

M1 - best for type workload , simple video editing
Intel - best for everything at most . No problem on advance video editing put there put here plugin.

Yes , a lot of apps have been port to the m1 platform but most even for developer like me. Faster mean nothing , quiter mean nothing. To do job as fast as possible with right tool is everything.

 

[adamlbiscuit]

I haven't read through every reply to this thread admittedly, but at first glance I think your main issue is that you're comparing an Intel iMac against a hypothetical Apple Silicon machine that does not exist yet (though I imagine it will very soon).

The reason I say this is because you admitted to being concerned about the performance of the new iMacs and how they might not give you the GPU performance.

With that in mind it's going to be difficult to make an informed decision until you have both options present in front of you, and can make an actual comparison.

For me I'd wait for the Apple Silicon models to come out, and would probably spring for one of those in the interest of being able to take advantage of the latest technologies. Yes, Monterey does have some features that aren't present on Intel, and they are pretty minor, but I expect the feature gap to only get wider in the not-so-distant future.

 

[allan.nyholm]

Some of the same thoughts I have with upgrading from Intel iMac late 2015 to an e.g M1 iMac

With macOS Monterey there are things not available for Intel Macs, but upgrading to a newer macOS and missing out isn't a big deal if I can get a 2019/2020 iMac with an i7 CPU and much more RAM and VRAM and better internal storage.

The 5K iMac monitor is a huge plus here. I'm mostly stationary and don't get out much so a laptop wouldn't benefit me.
And it's too much trouble to go through getting a larger monitor along side the laptop when I'm used to the screen resolution of a 5K display.

In all honesty want to get a hold of an iMac Pro more than a 2017 iMac , but with my use case I really just want more modern internal hardware. The Intel part of a Mac speaks to me more than Apple Silicon. This could just be the habit speaking.

I have plenty of bleeding going on and ghosting on my monitor and it's fun to see what I've been doing when I log back in to a macOS session with no windows open.

My advice? Intel iMac.

 

[satcomer]

I'm on the same decision, right now.

XDR + M1 MacMini or iMac 2020 full spec.
The only reason for iMac it can run windows natively (yes, the games!!).

just get a X-Box or Play Station and game on your TV!

 

[awsom82]

just get a X-Box or Play Station and game on your TV!

These games not available (and never will) on consoles
Arma3, MSFS2020

 

[ian87w]

If there is any desire to game on your computer, just get a gaming PC/laptop. You will be more satisfied. No point in getting a Mac just for FOMO.

 

[awsom82]

If there is any desire to game on your computer, just get a gaming PC/laptop. You will be more satisfied. No point in getting a Mac just for FOMO.

Don't want to get something extra. Mac is a universal device

 

[ian87w]

Don't want to get something extra. Mac is a universal device

The OP specifically mentioned gaming, as such a gaming PC/laptop fits the bill. And a gaming computer is also an excellent productivity machine as they tend to have better cooling and GPU than regular PCs. Imo it's the more versatile machine.

I'm not discounting Macs, but when gaming is part of the discussion, a Mac is not an ideal choice imo.

 

[kschendel]

It's unclear how long the current insanely inflated prices for used equipment will last. There are hints that the GPU situation might start to ease up in a few months, which might make people less likely to jump on any piece of hardware they can get at any ridiculous price.

I think if I were you, I'd sell your desktop now, and get an Intel iMac. I'm no prophet, but I have a feeling that we are pretty close to max used computer value. For AU$1800 net, the iMac is not a bad buy even if you end up "only" getting 3-4 years out of it -- and I think you can do better than that, even if Apple officially starts to leave intel iMac's behind.