Touchscreen and Pencil support on ARM MacBook

[Duckyduckbumps]

iOS apps are going to run natively on ARM Macs. But how compelling will they be without touch?

I used a tablet PC as my only machine for a while, but conceded that it wasn’t practical. Although I like Windows 10, the store never really got off the ground, so there were few apps that were comfortable to use without a keyboard.

The Apple ecosystem is different though. The iOS/iPadOS App Store is thriving.

My iPad Pro does *almost* everything I need to do.

An ARM MacBook with touch and Pencil support would do everything, and do it perfectly well.

 

[SegNerd]

I already tried asking Tim Cook and Phil Schiller about this on Twitter.

They didn’t answer. ?

Everyone is wondering about this, but there are no answers at this time. We’re just going to have to wait.

 

[Duckyduckbumps]

I already tried asking Tim Cook and Phil Schiller about this on Twitter.

They didn’t answer. ?

Everyone is wondering about this, but there are no answers at this time. We’re just going to have to wait.

I remember emailing Tim Cook when he became CEO saying that “An artist needs a pencil” ;-)

It’s kind of awkward marketing-wise, I guess... If they phased out the 12.9 inch iPad Pro and introduced a 13 inch ARM MacBook Pro with touch and Pencil support, that would make sense?

Or if they introduced a 15 inch ARM MacBook Pro with those features...

I’ve tried Surface and unfortunately the MS Pen is not as responsive as the Apple Pencil.

 

[MevetS]

iOS apps are going to run natively on ARM Macs. But how compelling will they be without touch?

.... snip ...

Perhaps you missed the introduction of the Magic Keyboard? And the addition of cursor support to iPadOS?

 

[Duckyduckbumps]

Perhaps you missed the introduction of the Magic Keyboard? And the addition of cursor support to iPadOS?

Good point, I haven’t yet taken much notice of the Magic Keyboard.

I was thinking more of apps like ProCreate and other apps in which direct touch and Pencil are indispensable.

 

[vigilant]

iOS apps are going to run natively on ARM Macs. But how compelling will they be without touch?

I used a tablet PC as my only machine for a while, but conceded that it wasn’t practical. Although I like Windows 10, the store never really got off the ground, so there were few apps that were comfortable to use without a keyboard.

The Apple ecosystem is different though. The iOS/iPadOS App Store is thriving.

My iPad Pro does *almost* everything I need to do.

An ARM MacBook with touch and Pencil support would do everything, and do it perfectly well.

I’ve heard people say that Big Sur seems to indicate touchscreen because of the new affordances that Big Sur gives us. I don’t agree. At least not as a prominent use case.

The touch targets are still too small. I struggle being able to drag the Mail window around using a cursor. It is certainly not usable with a finger.

What I do think the new spacing gives though, is enough room to be efficient with an Apple Pencil. I DO think that we’ll probably see Apple Pencil support coming, with the idea being keyboard and trackpad being considered primary interfaces. Could it support touch? Sure. I don’t see it being a primary method for input though

I think of it as the reverse of the iPad Pro with the Magic Keyboard Folio. When you use it with a keyboard and trackpad I can do just about everything that I normally do on a Mac. But the interface, while being completely usable still begs you to take the iPad off the magnetic base and use it as a tablet.

I think we’ll see that same thing happen on the Mac with an emphasis on Apple Pencil as a 3 primary input, and touch, if included being less than ideal. Less ideal than trackpad for the iPad.

I believe iOS and iPad OS is taking additional accommodations to support Mouse and Trackpad as of today. So games that enable these affordances should benefit on the Mac. Additionally, so many different gestures and the like that you can do on the iPad for touch map pretty well on the Mac. Gestures for changing screens, two finger scroll, pinch to zoom.

I expect Apple will do something similar to what they did with the Magic Keyboard Folio and iPad OS 14. The hardware was out there, and a couple months later Apple announces ways to increase support for both Trackpad and Keyboard in applications that couldn’t use those interfaces before, namely games.

Apple will probably do the same thing with Apple Pencil and possibly Touch support. Release something that supports it, with enough foundational support for it to be immediately useful. A few months later, announce macOS 12, or heaven help us 11.1, that takes existing limitations and makes them better in the form of OS level support and frameworks.

 

[Duckyduckbumps]

Thanks for your response. There’s a lot to think about.

Pencil support with multitouch that could be turned on or off by the user would be ideal in my opinion.

As you say, the macOS touch targets are too small, but I would want to have the choice to use touch in various creative Mac apps, to zoom/rotate the canvas.

I’ve heard people say that Big Sur seems to indicate touchscreen because of the new affordances that Big Sur gives us. I don’t agree. At least not as a prominent use case.

The touch targets are still too small. I struggle being able to drag the Mail window around using a cursor. It is certainly not usable with a finger.

What I do think the new spacing gives though, is enough room to be efficient with an Apple Pencil. I DO think that we’ll probably see Apple Pencil support coming, with the idea being keyboard and trackpad being considered primary interfaces. Could it support touch? Sure. I don’t see it being a primary method for input though

I think of it as the reverse of the iPad Pro with the Magic Keyboard Folio. When you use it with a keyboard and trackpad I can do just about everything that I normally do on a Mac. But the interface, while being completely usable still begs you to take the iPad off the magnetic base and use it as a tablet.

I think we’ll see that same thing happen on the Mac with an emphasis on Apple Pencil as a 3 primary input, and touch, if included being less than ideal. Less ideal than trackpad for the iPad.

I believe iOS and iPad OS is taking additional accommodations to support Mouse and Trackpad as of today. So games that enable these affordances should benefit on the Mac. Additionally, so many different gestures and the like that you can do on the iPad for touch map pretty well on the Mac. Gestures for changing screens, two finger scroll, pinch to zoom.

I expect Apple will do something similar to what they did with the Magic Keyboard Folio and iPad OS 14. The hardware was out there, and a couple months later Apple announces ways to increase support for both Trackpad and Keyboard in applications that couldn’t use those interfaces before, namely games.

Apple will probably do the same thing with Apple Pencil and possibly Touch support. Release something that supports it, with enough foundational support for it to be immediately useful. A few months later, announce macOS 12, or heaven help us 11.1, that takes existing limitations and makes them better in the form of OS level support and frameworks.

 

[SegNerd]

Just figuring out how pinch zooming will work when running iOS apps on macOS already boggles my mind.

I can only think of four possibilities:
-Just can’t use it at all
-You can use the Magic TrackPad and MacBook trackpad, but everyone else just can’t use it
-There will be some sort of substitute like a keystroke or an on-screen button
-Macs get touchscreens

I can’t help but feel like the first three options seem kludgy and just not very Apple-y. But maybe Apple has some amazing idea I just haven’t thought of... (maybe Macs get a Digital Crown!?)

 

[CWallace]

I believe Apple Silicon portables will support touch and Apple Pencil - if not immediately, sooner rather than later.

I do not expect the Apple Silicon iMac to support it (nor do I expect Apple releasing a standalone touch+pencil-capable display for the Mac Mini and Mac Pro).

 

[vigilant]

I believe Apple Silicon portables will support touch and Apple Pencil - if not immediately, sooner rather than later.

I do not expect the Apple Silicon iMac to support it (nor do I expect Apple releasing a standalone touch+pencil-capable display for the Mac Mini and Mac Pro).

If Apple does Apple Pencil support on the Mac at all it will also happen on the iMac. It just won’t be with ghetto hardware like the Surface Studio. I still silently laugh to myself at the trade offs between performance, and features for the price on that thing.

 

[Duckyduckbumps]

If Apple does Apple Pencil support on the Mac at all it will also happen on the iMac. It just won’t be with ghetto hardware like the Surface Studio. I still silently laugh to myself at the trade offs between performance, and features for the price on that thing.

Yes, I tried the Surface Studio when my workplace was testing new machines but I couldn’t recommend it because of the factors you mentioned, but also because of the poor performance of the Microsoft Pen compared to Wacom’s products. But I really liked the mechanism for moving the screen from horizontal through vertical.

It was similar in essence to the “iMac touch” patent from 2010.

Apple Finally wins a Patent for a Touchscreen iMac that will Never, Ever Come to Market

Back in 2010 Patently Apple posted a report titled "The Mother Lode: Welcome to the iMac Touch." It was an exciting time when the patent came out with Steve Jobs still the CEO and exciting products were being invented. Today the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office officially published a series of...

www.patentlyapple.com

How would you envision an iMac with pencil support in terms of design, specs and price point?

 

[glindon]

Has anyone else tried using Pencil when their iPad is connected to their magic keyboard? It’s the most awful experience until you take the iPad off of the keyboard. Now imagine a MacBook where you can never detach the screen.

 

[Duckyduckbumps]

Has anyone else tried using Pencil when their iPad is connected to their magic keyboard? It’s the most awful experience until you take the iPad off of the keyboard. Now imagine a MacBook where you can never detach the screen.

It’s possible that the screen could be detachable, or it could be engineered in some other way to make it ergonomic.

 

[MayaTlab]

Apple Pencil would already be tremendously useful to me used in combination with the trackpad like a Wacom tablet, with the sides of the MBP designed with magnets and a charging pad to re-charge and transport it).
But for that a 3rd generation Apple Pencil and a new trackpad design might be needed to make hover mode a possibility.
The increased spacing in Big Sur may not be enough for touch use, but it can bring a lot of benefits for a Pencil used like a Wacom tablet.

Big Tech has tried for more than a decade now to create a decent tablet / laptop combo but so far all the designs out there have opportunity costs one way or another vs a plain tablet (iPad) or a plain laptop (MBP for ex.) - meaning that one really has to have a strong need for such a balanced combo to buy it instead of a tablet with optional keyboard / trackpad option or a laptop with a dumb touchscreen for very occasional use (Dell XPS style).

 

[Duckyduckbumps]

Apple Pencil would already be tremendously useful to me used in combination with the trackpad like a Wacom tablet, with the sides of the MBP designed with magnets and a charging pad to re-charge and transport it).
But for that a 3rd generation Apple Pencil and a new trackpad design might be needed to make hover mode a possibility.
The increased spacing in Big Sur may not be enough for touch use, but it can bring a lot of benefits for a Pencil used like a Wacom tablet.

Big Tech has tried for more than a decade now to create a decent tablet / laptop combo but so far all the designs out there have opportunity costs one way or another vs a plain tablet (iPad) or a plain laptop (MBP for ex.) - meaning that one really has to have a strong need for such a balanced combo to buy it instead of a tablet with optional keyboard / trackpad option or a laptop with a dumb touchscreen for very occasional use (Dell XPS style).

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I hadn’t thought about hover mode, which has become indispensable to Wacom users. Hover-click is glaringly absent from Surface products.

I used two generations of Cintiq Companions, and I did enjoy them. But they were a bit underpowered as laptops, and clunky as tablets. Hence the switch to iPad Pro.

 

[MayaTlab]

Hover Mode is mostly useful - actually indispensable - for "not screen" tablets (like using the MBP trackpad for pencil use). Would people benefit from it for a touch screen like an iPad ? I've never used a Cintiq personally.

 

[Duckyduckbumps]

Hover Mode is mostly useful - actually indispensable - for "not screen" tablets (like using the MBP trackpad for pencil use). Would people benefit from it for a touch screen like an iPad ? I've never used a Cintiq personally.

It would be great to have hover for the Apple Pencil/iPad actually, because you could see the location of the cursor before applying the stroke.

On the Cintiq, it has that benefit, as well as hover-click, which I use all the time in Photoshop.

 

[MayaTlab]

Perhaps hover mode needs a redesign of the pencil, trackpad or screen to work though. I have no idea how the technology behind it works.

 

[Duckyduckbumps]

Perhaps hover mode needs a redesign of the pencil, trackpad or screen to work though. I have no idea how the technology behind it works.

Yes, quite possibly.

Wacom’s Intuos and Cintiq tablets use EMR: Electromagnetic Resonance. The tablet powers the stylus with an electromagnetic field.

This is fundamentally different tech to the Apple Pencil, which has its own battery.

The Surface Pens I’ve used - which also have their own batteries - can hover a bit, but they can’t hover-click. Very frustrating to use in that way.

 

[glindon]

It’s possible that the screen could be detachable, or it could be engineered in some other way to make it ergonomic.

There is no ergonomic way to hand write on a laptop screen. Now if the screen could lay completely flat on a desk that’s the only way to do it correctly. Having the keyboard flip to the back is terrible though as we’ve experienced with the previous Smart Keyboard on iPad. Now imagine instead of fabric keys you have plastic keys on the back of your tablet. Awful experience. And I don’t believe for a second we are getting a detachable screen on MacBooks. Apple already sells one and it’s called an iPad with Magic Keyboard. And if you want a Mac experience on your iPad, Apple already has that today with Sidecar. This is why I think that everyone thinking Mac will get touchscreens and pencil support is fooling themselves. If you want those features for your Mac, Apple will gladly sell you another device.

Let’s go back to iPad... It is getting more Mac like than Mac is getting iPad like. To use the Steve Jobs analogy: The iPad is a car and the Mac is a truck. Most people will buy a car and only buy a truck if they need it. Let’s take Mac Catalyst (and iPad, iPhone apps on AS Macs) as another example... Apple is putting less emphasis on creating Native Mac apps. For one, a bulk of the developers are iOS only, and two, The future of most computing is iPad.

 

[Duckyduckbumps]

There is no ergonomic way to hand write on a laptop screen. Now if the screen could lay completely flat on a desk that’s the only way to do it correctly. Having the keyboard flip to the back is terrible though as we’ve experienced with the previous Smart Keyboard on iPad. Now imagine instead of fabric keys you have plastic keys on the back of your tablet. Awful experience. And I don’t believe for a second we are getting a detachable screen on MacBooks. Apple already sells one and it’s called an iPad with Magic Keyboard. And if you want a Mac experience on your iPad, Apple already has that today with Sidecar. This is why I think that everyone thinking Mac will get touchscreens and pencil support is fooling themselves. If you want those features for your Mac, Apple will gladly sell you another device.

Let’s go back to iPad... It is getting more Mac like than Mac is getting iPad like. To use the Steve Jobs analogy: The iPad is a car and the Mac is a truck. Most people will buy a car and only buy a truck if they need it. Let’s take Mac Catalyst (and iPad, iPhone apps on AS Macs) as another example... Apple is putting less emphasis on creating Native Mac apps. For one, a bulk of the developers are iOS only, and two, The future of most computing is iPad.

Having thought about it, I pretty much agree that Apple won’t add touchscreen/Pencil support to the Mac.

With regard to ergonomics though, I like to write and draw at quite a steep angle. It’s better for my neck and back because I don’t have to lean over so much.

The screen has to be steady, which can be accomplished by using a kickstand. That would only work on a desk though, not the lap.

 

[Jacobi]

I would really love to see this... my dream come true would be an ARM Macbook with much improved webcam and Apple pencil support on the trackpad (Wacom style). Then it could be a true all-in-one machine for me.

 

[TrevorR90]

There is no ergonomic way to hand write on a laptop screen. Now if the screen could lay completely flat on a desk that’s the only way to do it correctly. Having the keyboard flip to the back is terrible though as we’ve experienced with the previous Smart Keyboard on iPad. Now imagine instead of fabric keys you have plastic keys on the back of your tablet. Awful experience. And I don’t believe for a second we are getting a detachable screen on MacBooks. Apple already sells one and it’s called an iPad with Magic Keyboard. And if you want a Mac experience on your iPad, Apple already has that today with Sidecar. This is why I think that everyone thinking Mac will get touchscreens and pencil support is fooling themselves. If you want those features for your Mac, Apple will gladly sell you another device.

Let’s go back to iPad... It is getting more Mac like than Mac is getting iPad like. To use the Steve Jobs analogy: The iPad is a car and the Mac is a truck. Most people will buy a car and only buy a truck if they need it. Let’s take Mac Catalyst (and iPad, iPhone apps on AS Macs) as another example... Apple is putting less emphasis on creating Native Mac apps. For one, a bulk of the developers are iOS only, and two, The future of most computing is iPad.

It seems that with the upcoming os 11, that the Mac and Ipad are becoming one. So this may very well be an indication of touch screen macbooks upcoming.

 

[Richdmoore]

It seems that with the upcoming os 11, that the Mac and Ipad are becoming one. So this may very well be an indication of touch screen macbooks upcoming.

My understanding from other forum postsis that while the on-screen layout is much more touch friendly in Big Sur, the code itself (in the developer preview) doesn’t have much evidence of the required code for touch screen Macs.

Of course, Apple may be just not including that in the beta software, but I don't think so.

Now, I do actually think touch screen is coming, but apple will wait maybe until the next macOS version. They will use this version to get arm Macs up and running well first, with the selling point of long battery life & energy efficiency.

Touch support is a good selling feature (even if somewhat questionable useage on a traditional laptop) so I think it will come as a generation of iPad users come to expect it on all devices, just not this year.

 

[awesomedeluxe]

Well, how would touch support work? The hinge design that makes the most sense is probably the Magic Keyboard design for the iPad...

As The Verge describes it, "the Magic Keyboard hardware is really best at being a laptop." The floating display is great ergonomics for a notebook machine and adds value even if the user isn't interested in using touch at all. You could probably bolt the screen to the hinge and run a display cable through it.

But. Look how tiny the trackpad is! It's tiny for a reason, the screen "floats" above a large portion of the base, which means the keyboard has to be pushed down so you can still type while the display is forwards.

As it turns out, the Macbook Pro 16 has about one inch more vertical space than the iPad Pro 12: 9.68" to the iPad's 8.46". So we can use that space to make the touchpad about 1.1" taller. Is that enough?