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harrisonjr98

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 15, 2019
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Hello all! I have a friend who is trying to squeeze a bit of extra life from his aging 2015 13" retina MBP by replacing the factory SSD, which recently bit the dust (flashing folder.) At my direction, he picked up a 1TB Crucial P3 Plus (regular P3 was backordered, but my understanding is that PCIe 4.0 should be back-compat...) and one of those cheap NVMe adapters on Amazon. He performed the physical install by following the iFixit guide, but is not able to see any evidence of the disk's existence in Disk Utility after booting into recovery mode.

I am in another state and not able to help in person, but walked him through some basic troubleshooting steps that did not resolve the issue. He was running El Capitan(!) on his internal disk when it bit the dust, so the Internet recovery is for El Capitan. While Googling I came across an old thread on another forum that said High Sierra was the first version of macOS to add critical firmware-level support for third party NVMe drives internally. I don't know how true that is, as this is the first I've heard that claim and the person did not cite a source.

Assuming that IS true, our predicament becomes one of: his factory SSD running El Cap died running El Cap, and though we were ready to install Big Sur on the new drive, we can't do that if it's not visible in Disk Utility. How can we get High Sierra or newer installed in the "base system" storage (recovery mode, et al) in order to "see" the new SSD and move forward as usual?

If the firmware thing is NOT true, my next instincts were that either PCIe 4.0 disks are only backwards compatible if there is firmware to recognize them (I don't know if this is true or not) *or* the new drive may have been factory formatted as NTFS which is not natively compatible with macOS. Even then, I imagine it should still show in Disk Utility and be able to be formatted from there?

Failing all of that, he may have a DOA disk or adapter. We are trying to exhaust all other trains of thought before getting into the headache of returns and exchanges.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice on this one!
 

Bigwaff

Contributor
Sep 20, 2013
2,741
1,831
The next logical step would be create a El Capitan installer USB media and boot from it. Once the USB has been created, attach to the MBP, and hold down the "Option" key while powering on the laptop. The boot picker screens should appear and allow select of the USB media for booting. Once booted, use Disk Utility to erase & reformat the SSD (assuming the SSD is visible in Disk Utility).
 
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rovostrov

macrumors regular
Oct 3, 2020
180
132
Hello all! I have a friend who is trying to squeeze a bit of extra life from his aging 2015 13" retina MBP by replacing the factory SSD, which recently bit the dust (flashing folder.) At my direction, he picked up a 1TB Crucial P3 Plus (regular P3 was backordered, but my understanding is that PCIe 4.0 should be back-compat...) and one of those cheap NVMe adapters on Amazon. He performed the physical install by following the iFixit guide, but is not able to see any evidence of the disk's existence in Disk Utility after booting into recovery mode.

I am in another state and not able to help in person, but walked him through some basic troubleshooting steps that did not resolve the issue. He was running El Capitan(!) on his internal disk when it bit the dust, so the Internet recovery is for El Capitan. While Googling I came across an old thread on another forum that said High Sierra was the first version of macOS to add critical firmware-level support for third party NVMe drives internally. I don't know how true that is, as this is the first I've heard that claim and the person did not cite a source.

Assuming that IS true, our predicament becomes one of: his factory SSD running El Cap died running El Cap, and though we were ready to install Big Sur on the new drive, we can't do that if it's not visible in Disk Utility. How can we get High Sierra or newer installed in the "base system" storage (recovery mode, et al) in order to "see" the new SSD and move forward as usual?

If the firmware thing is NOT true, my next instincts were that either PCIe 4.0 disks are only backwards compatible if there is firmware to recognize them (I don't know if this is true or not) *or* the new drive may have been factory formatted as NTFS which is not natively compatible with macOS. Even then, I imagine it should still show in Disk Utility and be able to be formatted from there?

Failing all of that, he may have a DOA disk or adapter. We are trying to exhaust all other trains of thought before getting into the headache of returns and exchanges.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice on this one!
I believe you need a firmware update. You might need to reinstall the original Apple OEM SSD, then try the OS upgrade. The 2015 should be able to run Monterey. After the OS upgrade, the MBP should recognize the 3rd party SSD
 

harrisonjr98

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 15, 2019
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The next logical step would be create a El Capitan installer USB media and boot from it. Once the USB has been created, attach to the MBP, and hold down the "Option" key while powering on the laptop. The boot picker screens should appear and allow select of the USB media for booting. Once booted, use Disk Utility to erase & reformat the SSD (assuming the SSD is visible in Disk Utility).
He can get into recovery mode, and Disk Utility there is not seeing it. Are you saying that you can fully boot macOS from the *installer* media? I was not aware, if that’s the case!
I believe you need a firmware update. You might need to reinstall the original Apple OEM SSD, then try the OS upgrade. The 2015 should be able to run Monterey. After the OS upgrade, the MBP should recognize the 3rd party SSD
We cannot unfortunately since the OEM drive is dead as a doornail. That was my first thought too. I do believe the firmware is the culprit, from what I’ve gathered. The issue is getting to a newer OS without the OEM drive functioning anymore.
 

17fox

macrumors 6502
Sep 6, 2022
348
549
Vienna, Austria
We cannot unfortunately since the OEM drive is dead as a doornail. That was my first thought too. I do believe the firmware is the culprit, from what I’ve gathered. The issue is getting to a newer OS without the OEM drive functioning anymore.
From the perspective that it has to do with firmware, I'd suggest you to install macOS on an external SSD (if you have one) first, boot under this external SSD, then try to re-format the new SSD that is going to be installed internally in recovery mode (Don't disconnect the external one) and after that of course install the system on it
 

DeltaMac

macrumors G5
Jul 30, 2003
13,757
4,583
Delaware
Yes, you will need to update the firmware, by installing, as a minimum, High Sierra.
The "flashing folder" does NOT mean the OEM drive is dead, but you would need to try erasing the drive.
If you are already convinced that drive is no good, then you still need to discover a way to get the firmware updated. You likely won't get that Crucial NVME stick to be recognized until you update the firmware.
You COULD install that NVME drive in an external USB NVME enclosure. That will not need the firmware, as the enclosure will handle the NVME drive just fine.
Boot to a system installer (which can be on a flash drive), which will need to be High Sierra or newer. Latest would be Monterey, so that might be a good choice for this next install.
Install that system to the NVME drive. The install should update your firmware, then you can move the Crucial NVME drive to the internal slot, and it should work then.
 

harrisonjr98

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 15, 2019
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Thank you everyone! Some very helpful advice here and he is going to try the external drive method this evening.

For future reference, I am trying to clarify for myself how the macOS "Base System" disk image works. My understanding is that it's a small chunk of nvram on the logic board housing core functions *and* the pre-boot recovery mode environment. Almost analogous to the way the UEFI is stored on a PC's motherboard, though of course a UEFI is OS-agnostic over there and doesn't contain "internet recovery" options or anything :)

If I am correctly interpreting @17fox's comment above, somehow booting from an external disk with a newer version of macOS "updates" the Base System as well, allowing recovery mode's Disk Utility to see the new NVMe disk. Is that correct? How would it work if I had multiple bootable external disks that I swapped between regularly, running different versions of macOS? Would the Base System be changing each time I swapped them?
 

DeltaMac

macrumors G5
Jul 30, 2003
13,757
4,583
Delaware
The Base System is what is used to boot the recovery system partition. And, it is on its own small partition on your boot drive.
No, not a firmware disk image--it exists on your boot drive. You can only view it when booted to the recovery system.
Then, there's the Internet recovery system. That is not local to you, it is loaded through your internet connection at the time that you boot to internet recovery. That's why there is the globe loading icon. The base system in Internet Recovery is loaded from Apple's servers, and is not dependent on your Mac. That is what allows internet recovery to completely erase your drive (should you need to do that), then download and install macOS to an erased or new blank drive.
That version that you install from internet recovery can be the same version that your Mac originally shipped with, or closest version that is still available - depending on how you boot to internet recovery.

It can also reinstall the latest version that you have already installed on your Mac. As I said, that will change depending on how you boot to internet recovery, and what system you currently have installed on your Mac.

Finally, the base system (or any other boot system) does not determine if an NVME drive will be recognized. That is part of your firmware, and is the reason that the firmware must be updated, particularly if your Mac has never had High Sierra or later installed
 
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harrisonjr98

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 15, 2019
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The Base System is what is used to boot the recovery system partition. And, it is on its own small partition on your boot drive.
No, not a firmware disk image--it exists on your boot drive. You can only view it when booted to the recovery system.
Then, there's the Internet recovery system. That is not local to you, it is loaded through your internet connection at the time that you boot to internet recovery. That's why there is the globe loading icon. The base system in Internet Recovery is loaded from Apple's servers, and is not dependent on your Mac. That is what allows internet recovery to completely erase your drive (should you need to do that), then download and install macOS to an erased or new blank drive.
That version that you install from internet recovery can be the same version that your Mac originally shipped with, or closest version that is still available - depending on how you boot to internet recovery.

It can also reinstall the latest version that you have already installed on your Mac. As I said, that will change depending on how you boot to internet recovery, and what system you currently have installed on your Mac.

Finally, the base system (or any other boot system) does not determine if an NVME drive will be recognized. That is part of your firmware, and is the reason that the firmware must be updated, particularly if your Mac has never had High Sierra or later installed
I think I understand, but he was able to boot into recovery and even see the "Base System" listed in Disk Utility without the OEM drive physically installed at one point. That's why I am confused.

He's trying the external drive idea now and we have our fingers crossed! Thanks again for your help.
 

harrisonjr98

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 15, 2019
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He's having a very weird issue now. After installing Big Sur on the external drive, he cannot boot into recovery mode by holding Cmd+R as usual...
 

17fox

macrumors 6502
Sep 6, 2022
348
549
Vienna, Austria
If I am correctly interpreting @17fox's comment above, somehow booting from an external disk with a newer version of macOS "updates" the Base System as well, allowing recovery mode's Disk Utility to see the new NVMe disk. Is that correct? How would it work if I had multiple bootable external disks that I swapped between regularly, running different versions of macOS? Would the Base System be changing each time I swapped them?
Well, almost. You have to install firstly newer macOS on this external SSD from your MacBook Pro. After that firmware will be running new version.
 

17fox

macrumors 6502
Sep 6, 2022
348
549
Vienna, Austria
He's having a very weird issue now. After installing Big Sur on the external drive, he cannot boot into recovery mode by holding Cmd+R as usual...
Sorry, haven’t noticed this post immediately. Could you explain the sequence, how is he trying to boot to recovery mode?
 

harrisonjr98

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 15, 2019
345
200
Sorry, haven’t noticed this post immediately. Could you explain the sequence, how is he trying to boot to recovery mode?
He has installed macOS (Big Sur, since it was already ready on his install media) on the external disk. On boot he is holding cmd+R to try and enter recovery mode, but the system is skipping over it and just booting macOS instead.
 

17fox

macrumors 6502
Sep 6, 2022
348
549
Vienna, Austria
He has installed macOS (Big Sur, since it was already ready on his install media) on the external disk. On boot he is holding cmd+R to try and enter recovery mode, but the system is skipping over it and just booting macOS instead.
Oh, okay, I experienced this issue a few times as well.
Go fix it do the following:
1. Make sure that this external drive is set as a start up disk (System Preferences -> Start up Disk -> Select external drive and click restart)
2. During this restart hold cmd+r really long (around 20-30 seconds or even more). It might seem really long, but it worked for me only this way.
3. (optional) Google through options of booting recovery mode using Terminal commands.
 

harrisonjr98

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 15, 2019
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To upgrade the firmware to High Sierra, the OS must be installed to an internal OEM drive. Installing the OS and running from an external drive will not upgrade the firmware.
Yeah it doesn’t seem to have done so. Booting into recovery mode again following 17fox’s above advice still does not show the crucial drive. Would an OWC brand drive be able to be recognized without the firmware update, or is it needed for any drive that is not the OEM one? Not sure how to proceed if we need to track down an OEM drive…
 

rovostrov

macrumors regular
Oct 3, 2020
180
132
Yeah it doesn’t seem to have done so. Booting into recovery mode again following 17fox’s above advice still does not show the crucial drive. Would an OWC brand drive be able to be recognized without the firmware update, or is it needed for any drive that is not the OEM one? Not sure how to proceed if we need to track down an OEM drive…
eBay has a lot of them for around $15-20 bucks. It would be good to pick one up in case he might need it in the future.
I think this one should work http://tinyurl.com/5zs7w5er
 

Audit13

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2017
6,901
1,842
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Yeah it doesn’t seem to have done so. Booting into recovery mode again following 17fox’s above advice still does not show the crucial drive. Would an OWC brand drive be able to be recognized without the firmware update, or is it needed for any drive that is not the OEM one? Not sure how to proceed if we need to track down an OEM drive…
It must be an OEM drive. I encountered the same issue in the past with a couple of MacBook Airs (2013 and 2017).

OWC drives are basically NVMe drives using the proprietary Apple connector.
 
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BuffyzDead

macrumors regular
Dec 30, 2008
234
356
"one of those cheap NVMe adapters on Amazon"
THIS is your problem !!!

THIS is your solution, because I have installed it, in the very same 2015 13" retina MBP.


And then, to make it all worth while and run Sonoma 14.3 on that MBP, do THIS
You can thank me later

PS
Per THIS thread, IF you go the way you want by using any m.2 NVMe drive, you need to use THIS adapter
 
Last edited:

Audit13

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2017
6,901
1,842
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
"one of those cheap NVMe adapters on Amazon"
THIS is your problem !!!

THIS is your solution, because I have installed it, in the very same 2015 13" retina MBP.
The OWC drive requires the MacBook to be running High Sierra or higher and OP's MacBook is running El Capitan as per OWC:

"NOTE: Aura Pro X2 is designed for APFS file system available on macOS 10.13 High Sierra or higher. Upgrade to macOS 10.13 or higher before Aura Pro X2 SSD install."
 
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harrisonjr98

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 15, 2019
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He is going to try the OEM drive method. I'll report back here if it is successful, in order to help anyone who stumbles across this in the future.
 
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