Understanding System-Backups starting with Big Sur

[TwoLaneHighway]

**NOTE: A previous thread of mine about the APFS file-system has forked, and in order to do a deeper dive on this new topic, and to help people with similar questions in the future, I have decided to create this new thread.


Background:
For a number of years, I have been using Bombich Software's "Carbon Copy Cloner" (CCC) software as a backup solution. In decades of computer use, I think CCC is probably one of the coolest and most practical pieces of software ever written. Thank you, Mike Bombich!!

What I love about Carbon Copy Cloner is that it not only proides a super easy way to backup my entire hard-drive, but it also allows me to backup the OS, all of my applications, and all of my system/application settings. And, it also offers me a way to clone the bootable partition on my hard-drive, so that my backup isn't just a backup, but rather a bootable clone of my entire Mac computer!

All of this is attainable in just a matter of a few clicks in the software.

Thanks to Carbon Copy Cloner, life has been good, and my system and my data is as safe as how often I run a clone and keep at least one copy off-site in case of local disaster.

Unfortunately, it seems that hardware and software changes by Apple in recent years break this entire paradigm?!



Current Problem:
Earlier this week, I started poking around looking to upgrade my 2015 Retina MacBook Pro to a 2TB internal SSD, and upgrade to Big Sur, and I ran into this GIGANTIC hurdle...


In this other thread of mine...

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/what-do-you-think-about-big-sur.2308636/

@sgtaylor5 wrote:

Catalina and Big Sur have two partitions; a System partition that is locked and with Big Sur, inaccessible to backup programs and a Data partition that has your applications and information on it.

On any Mac laptop that has a security chip T1 or later and especially M1, there are no provisions to recover data from a motherboard hard drive. The newer the Mac laptop, the better the chance that the SSD is actually chips on the motherboard and not a separate piece of hardware. The security chip automatically encrypts all data going onto the SSD.

And then in my APFS thread which is the one that forked...

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/questions-about-apfs.2308655/?post=30211258#post-30211258

@hobowankenobi wrote:

As of right now, cloning is hard. It may get easier in the future, but we don't know yet. As of today, the safe thing to expect for all new Macs running anything on APFS is that we will NOT have a bootable external clone.

Quite a bit of coverage has been written about this, but Bombich covers it fairly succinctly here. Another nice overview here with good info on the new structure (volumes, partitions, etc.).

As for what is different about APFS vs. HFS+...it is a moving target, especially when you factor in the OS changes too....and then there are boot firmware changes for all new M1 (and beyond) Macs.

Good overview here.

And Time Machine is different now, with real improvements. I think Apple should have called it Time Machine 2 or something, as it has fundamentally changed. And we all should consider it again, even if we were not fans a decade ago.

And yeah...we all feel very comfortable with our file system utilities for the last 3 decades. But if APFS does it's job, most—if not all—of those tools will be unnecessary. iOS has been using APFS for 5+ years. How often does anybody defrag or otherwise maintain the file system on an iPhone or iPad?

@hobowankenobi continues to say: (This is starting to sound like a research paper!!) ?

It just takes a bit of changing of mindset. Bootable clones are amazing and convenient. But what really matters is our unique data, not the OS or apps or things that can be reinstalled easily. Unique user data is everything.

CCC (and many other tools, including Time Machine) do a great job of protecting our user data, even without bootable clones.

I have an M1 mini running as a local server that needs continuous backup, so I use:

• Time Machine to an attached volume for continuous backups
• Drive sync tool for instantaneous file syncing to NAS
• Chronosync to an attached volume for scheduled backups and long-term version control
• Chronosync to archive the full OS to a disk image on a remote server for full disaster recovery

All very doable on the latest OS and hardware. Would I like a bootable clone too? Sure. Can I live without it? Yep.


----


I would suggest:

• Pick one Mac that you can live without for while and make it a testbed
• Clone it to external (so you can painlessly roll back if needed)
• Make a TM backup too, to a second volume/partition
• Update to MacOS 11. I would wipe, format, and start fresh
• Use the migration tool to restore from your TM backup

Test, test, test.

An important test: Boot to internet recovery, install a fresh OS, and restore data from TM, CCC, or any other backup tool you use. It will take a bit longer than the attached clone, but good to know exactly what to expect, and how long it takes before you actually need it. Good to know that you can do it this way...even when you do a bootable clone.

If you are not satisfied with the TM restore...wipe and start again.

Consider not restoring, or restoring only specific files you need.

This process/progress has to be messy. We have a huge change: CPU, GPU, firmware, OS, security/access, file system. All changing.

We can wait, but not forever. Maybe when MacOS 12.something is here this winter, we may see some easier paths forward. Bugs squashed, features added...maybe even the return of easily bootable external clones? Eventually, we all move forward or we change paths. Can only tread water on HFS+ for so long...

P.S.: I understand SuperDuper has a beta version that may have Big Sur cloning working, but I have not tested it yet. If they did it...that means others will crack it too. And that is without Apple handing over the keys to ASR. More on the struggles and work arounds back here.

Okay, so I want to rewind, and take back over control of the conversation and MY questions... ;-)


**NOTE: Moving forward, please assume that my questions relate to MY early 2015 Retina MacBook which currently has a 1TB SSD with Mojave on it, and after today will hopefully have a new 2TB internal SSD with Big Sur on it. (Would love to learn about how all of this impacted a new MacBook Pro, but one fire at a time, please!)



Questions:
1.) First of all, @sgtaylor5, what exactly is on the "System partition" and the "Data partition"?

Presumably the "System partition" contains all bootable code and the base OS. But what about other non data items?


2a.) For instance, if I install Libre Office onto my older rMBP with Big Sur, where does the application reside?

2b.) And where do all of my Libre Office settings reside?


3.) What about if I install Apple's Final Cut Pro?


4.) What about System-esque applications like Rouge Ameoba's "Loopback", or Apple's "AU Labs"?


If I lose the ability to "clone" those applications and all of their settings, then it is a deal-breaker for me, because it would easily take me a week to re-install my applications and re-customize them, and some of them are so complicated, I'm not sure I could easily re-create their current working settings which often take months of tweaking until I get things working just right. (I am getting into music and movie productions, and anyone who is an audiophile or a cinematographer can appreciate how complex those applications and environments can get!!)


There is much I would like to dive into after comments from @sgtaylor5 , @hobowankenobi , @Fishrrman , and others, but to prevent this new thread from spinning out of control, maybe someone can answer my first set of questions above?


******
P.S. I have been busy reading, and re-reading the links provided above, but this is all like going from a lifetime of American-English to Mandarin Chinese overnight!!

 

[hobowankenobi]

Questions:
1.) First of all, @sgtaylor5, what exactly is on the "System partition" and the "Data partition"?

Presumably the "System partition" contains all bootable code and the base OS. But what about other non data items?


2a.) For instance, if I install Libre Office onto my older rMBP with Big Sur, where does the application reside?

2b.) And where do all of my Libre Office settings reside?


3.) What about if I install Apple's Final Cut Pro?


4.) What about System-esque applications like Rouge Ameoba's "Loopback", or Apple's "AU Labs"?


If I lose the ability to "clone" those applications and all of their settings, then it is a deal-breaker for me, because it would easily take me a week to re-install my applications and re-customize them, and some of them are so complicated, I'm not sure I could easily re-create their current working settings which often take months of tweaking until I get things working just right. (I am getting into music and movie productions, and anyone who is an audiophile or a cinematographer can appreciate how complex those applications and environments can get!!)

OK, let's back up.

You can read and understand all that you want to know, and have asked in all the questions above. Kudos to you if you dive in, good to understand how things work in general.

But:

We don't have to know all of the messy ways that Apple is now conjoining two partitions in a seamless (and invisible) way and presents them as a single volume to us users...to use, control, or backup.

It is just different now.

Yes, you still have full control as the local admin user of the /Applications folder, but just the things you install. The preinstalled Apple stuff is now protected, not through just permissions, but is part of the protected, read-only system partition.

And, the protected (default apps) and non-protected (user-installed apps) are presented to us together.

Messy to unpack!

Check out these images. This is a test box with both partitions mounted and visible...and the visibility switched on so we can actually see the hidden stuff.

Notice the TWO Applications folders, and that the contents of the buried one are visible in the unburied one:

If I understand correctly (we are all learning this together...), the System Folder and the included Applications folder is in fact on the protected, read-only Macintosh HD partition, not on the MacHD - Data partition, even though it is presented to us in the Finder on the MacHD - Data partition.

Messy.

The important bit is that we all have control of the user-installed apps, and most importantly their associated files, preferences, settings, etc...that were never in /Applications anyway.

We still have full control of both /Library and ~/Library, as well as anything else in the home directory. These are the important chunks to control, backup, and restore.

The core OS itself has been locked down, and both the Restore feature (and Internet Restore) is so good these days, it makes little sense to back it up anymore.

My perspective, having been cloning Macs since OS 9:

We used to need to clone a bootable OS, as the unique user files and required software pieces (file extensions, etc) were so jumbled up with the core OS, that the easiest/best thing was to copy the whole system as a "golden master".

Apple has spent years slowly separating and then walling off the core OS from all our unique stuff. More secure, and no need to clone the whole OS. We take care of our side (data, apps, settings, prefs) and the OS is now fully modular and separate from our stuff.

The separation is now essentially complete. We all have to adjust to (and let go of) cloning entire systems as the best and easiest way to recover from any disaster.

 

[sgtaylor5]

I was slowly answering all of your questions, and @hobowankenobi beat me to it!

Now we know you have Mojave (yay) and your situation is FAR easier. Mojave can still do full bootable backups that we all know and love, in the manner that you expect. The information for Catalina and Big Sur we've collected will help lots of future viewers, and it's really great that you've documented and collated all of this information.

1) The System partition contains the Operating system, the inbox apps that Apple provides like Photos, Maps, Calendar, Contacts, Mail and the like.

The Data Partition has all of the user's Applications, files and settings.

There is a file system capability called a symbolic link: alias for a soft link (on Windows, it's called a shortcut). That is a pointer on one location pointing to a real file residing in another location on the file system.

On Catalina and later macOS's, there is a similar new concept called a firmlink. This only works on folders and is bi-directional. There is a root-level Applications folder in the non user-writable System partition. There is another root-level Applications folder on the user-writable Data partition. This is a new place for an Applications folder to exist. A firmlink merges the two folders together so that the user only sees one Applications folder.

The merged root-level Applications folder is different from the Applications folder that can exist in a user's home folder.

2a) the LibreOffice application is installed on your root-level Applications folder on the user-writable Data partition.
2b) LibreOffice's settings are in your user level Library folder. -> /Users/[username]/Library/Application Support (and other places in the user level Library folder)

... and I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[hobowankenobi]

@sgtaylor5 FTW!

More big picture stuff for 2a, 2b, 3, and 4:

It depends. Different applications do different things.​

​

1. Some are fully contained in the executable package/directory in /Applications. We have full access to all the things we install in /Applications, so no issues there.​

​

2. Some install components in other directories too. Common destinations would be:​

​

/Library​

/Library/Application Support​

/Library/Printers​

/Library/LaunchAgents​

/Library/LaunchDaemons​

​

...and many more within /Library. We have full access to all the things we install in /Library, so no issues there.​

​

3. Nearly all settings, preferences, and sometimes other components are stored in:​

​

~/Library​

/Library/Preferences​

/Users/Shared​

/Applications/Utilites​

​

We have access to all of these, so again....no issues installing, backing up, restoring, etc.​

So...FCP and Libre Office, like other user-installed apps, can be installed, backed up (both the app itself and the associated files and preferences), and restored, the same on Big Sur as on other previous OSes.

 

[TwoLaneHighway]

@hobowankenobi and @sgtaylor5,

I am going out on a video shoot tonight, and scurrying around to get ready for it. (Oh I have sooo many moving parts in my life the last two weeks?!)

Here is a partial response, with more to follow...

OK, let's back up.

You can read and understand all that you want to know, and have asked in all the questions above. Kudos to you if you dive in, good to understand how things work in general.

I read all of the links you provided, but some more. Thanks for the great resources!

But:

We don't have to know all of the messy ways that Apple is now conjoining two partitions in a seamless (and invisible) way and presents them as a single volume to us users...to use, control, or backup.

True. However, I tend to be the guy that wants to know how my car works at least enough so I don't get conned by a mechanic who doesn't know what he is doing. So I have found it serves me well to try and become proficient in how things work to help me better understand the limits and always be able to answer, "Does that really make sense?"

It is just different now.

Yes, you still have full control as the local admin user of the /Applications folder, but just the things you install. The preinstalled Apple stuff is now protected, not through just permissions, but is part of the protected, read-only system partition.

And that is all I need. Some things posted earlier or that I read earlier made it sound like that was not the case, and that would be a major issues.

But based on my research so far, I can concur what you say seems to be correct. (My previous point already being made!)

And, the protected (default apps) and non-protected (user-installed apps) are presented to us together.

Messy to unpack!

Check out these images. This is a test box with both partitions mounted and visible...and the visibility switched on so we can actually see the hidden stuff.

Notice the TWO Applications folders, and that the contents of the buried one are visible in the unburied one:

Thanks for the insight.

If I understand correctly (we are all learning this together...), the System Folder and the included Applications folder is in fact on the protected, read-only Macintosh HD partition, not on the MacHD - Data partition, even though it is presented to us in the Finder on the MacHD - Data partition.

That is my understanding also. And the key point that was misreprsented before is that "Your Data" includes: Your Applications, Your Applications' Settings/Preferences, Your Applications' Data (e.g. Thunderbird emails, iTunes-esque type stuff) (**I'm not 100% certain on this, but it sounds true.), and Your Data Data.

And *assuming* you can stick "Your Data" onto a new computer/hard-drive/OS and have Humpty Dumpty back to his original state, then it is as good as current-state Carbon Copy Cloner.

But I'm not 100% sold on this yet, so I am still researching, and hopefully we will have an enlightening thread for all to learn.

Messy.

The important bit is that we all have control of the user-installed apps, and most importantly their associated files, preferences, settings, etc...that were never in /Applications anyway.

We still have full control of both /Library and ~/Library, as well as anything else in the home directory. These are the important chunks to control, backup, and restore.

Agree 110%.

The core OS itself has been locked down, and both the Restore feature (and Internet Restore) is so good these days, it makes little sense to back it up anymore.

As far as you know, can you still make bootable USB drives of Big Sur and later macOS's and at least use those to expedite rebuilding the System portion?

My perspective, having been cloning Macs since OS 9:

We used to need to clone a bootable OS, as the unique user files and required software pieces (file extensions, etc) were so jumbled up with the core OS, that the easiest/best thing was to copy the whole system as a "golden master".

Right.

Apple has spent years slowly separating and then walling off the core OS from all our unique stuff. More secure, and no need to clone the whole OS. We take care of our side (data, apps, settings, prefs) and the OS is now fully modular and separate from our stuff.

If it is that simple - and it actually works in practice - then I am on board!

The separation is now essentially complete. We all have to adjust to (and let go of) cloning entire systems as the best and easiest way to recover from any disaster.

Okay...


Side Note: I was supposed to have built a new 2TB SSD with Big Sur backup Retina MBP this week so I'd have a better, more compatible system and more space. But between the hiccups above, and buying a whole truckload of new video gear, and having to get back out and start shooting, I didn't get the first goal anywhere near done. But I think finding you experts, and help in this and previous threads will help me to be better off as soon as I find time to build my new system and properly back it up! I need like 20 of me right now!!

 

[hobowankenobi]

Good to hear you are getting a better feel for it.

While it takes time, I would suggest to anybody using a production Mac...to find the time to blow it up and rebuild it, at least when these big changes come along. Luckily it has been less than once a decade!

Similar to your point about mechanics:

Always learn how to change a tire on a nice day in your driveway with good light and help at the ready!
Never learn how to change a tire on a dark, cold, rainy night by yourself!

So...make time to practice changing your tire. ?

I should add: Don't feel compelled to jump to OS 11 now, unless there are show-stopper compatibility issues. Just know that the clock is ticking, and plan to carve out some time in the foreseeable future to start the migration.

 

[TwoLaneHighway]

I was slowly answering all of your questions, and @hobowankenobi beat me to it!

Now we know you have Mojave (yay) and your situation is FAR easier. Mojave can still do full bootable backups that we all know and love, in the manner that you expect. The information for Catalina and Big Sur we've collected will help lots of future viewers, and it's really great that you've documented and collated all of this information.

Except one problem...

My life is on another rMBP, and an even older 2012 MBP, which run macOS Sierra.

Let me stress again my two biggest concerns:

1.) Losing control of my cloning/backup capabilities that I am used to

2.) Having to rebuild my machine after a migration.


Because Mojave will be losing support in Sept 2021, I believe, it would be risky - or mor elike an enormous time loss - to migrate/rebuild this virgin machine, knowing in a year or two I have to do it all over again?!

Now you might say, "Well, do that, because in a year or two Apple will have smoothed out the kinks, and it will be more beneficial to you to make the switch to more modern designs."

And I am weighing that option.

But I am more inclined to "bite the bullet" now, re-build this second rMBP from the ground up using APFS and Big Sur, and then *hopefully* not have to touch it for at least 5 years - assuming an early 2015 rMBP (Intel) with 16GB RAM and a 2TB SSD will last that long??

Data protection & control, and time-savings. Those are my goals.

1) The System partition contains the Operating system, the inbox apps that Apple provides like Photos, Maps, Calendar, Contacts, Mail and the like.

The Data Partition has all of the user's Applications, files and settings.

What about for things like "AU Labs"? That is an Apple OS app, but what about all of my equalizer settings? Will those be saved in the "Data" volume?

What about things like Rogue Amoeba's Loopback which again is in a gray area?

There is a file system capability called a symbolic link: alias for a soft link (on Windows, it's called a shortcut). That is a pointer on one location pointing to a real file residing in another location on the file system.

On Catalina and later macOS's, there is a similar new concept called a firmlink. This only works on folders and is bi-directional. There is a root-level Applications folder in the non user-writable System partition. There is another root-level Applications folder on the user-writable Data partition. This is a new place for an Applications folder to exist. A firmlink merges the two folders together so that the user only sees one Applications folder.

I have been reading about this, but nice simple explanation! ?

The merged root-level Applications folder is different from the Applications folder that can exist in a user's home folder.

2a) the LibreOffice application is installed on your root-level Applications folder on the user-writable Data partition.
2b) LibreOffice's settings are in your user level Library folder. -> /Users/[username]/Library/Application Support (and other places in the user level Library folder)

... and I'm going to leave it at that.

Okay, so most of the applications I have installed will be clonable as well as all of the settings for those applications, right?


As I mentioned last night to @hobowankenobi, my understanding - so far - is that I should be able to use Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) 6 to still clone all of the applications I have installed, all of my application settings/configurations, all of my application data (e.g. Thunderbird emails, iTunes music or whatever exists, etc), all of my System Preferences (e.g. user account, user settings, systeem security settings), and of course, my regular data (e.g. files, photos, videos, music, etc.)

And then apparently CCC v6 in its "Standard Mode" will not backup the "System volume", but in case of a system or hardware failure, all you would do is re-install Big Sur onto your current (or a repalcement) system, AND THEN you would use Appl'e "Migration Wizard" in conjunction with CCC 6 to install your non-System clone back onto your device, and then IN THEORY you would have a near identical system - with the exception that your OS and OS applications might be slightly newer than what you had at the time of a system crash.

Does that sound correct?

 

[TwoLaneHighway]

Similar to your point about mechanics:

Always learn how to change a tire on a nice day in your driveway with good light and help at the ready!
Never learn how to change a tire on a dark, cold, rainy night by yourself!

So...make time to practice changing your tire. ?

Agreed!

I should add: Don't feel compelled to jump to OS 11 now, unless there are show-stopper compatibility issues. Just know that the clock is ticking, and plan to carve out some time in the foreseeable future to start the migration.

I know you cannot predict the future - at least Apple's future - but maybe you can help me figure out where to go from here...

Issue #1:
I have two early 2015 Retina MacBook Pros, plus a dying 2012 MBP.

rMBP 1 has my life on it - minus all of my videos which are on numerous external HDDs.

rMBP 2 was purchased as a backup and is still in mint condition.

I just bought a 2TB SSD from OWC this week, and would have installed it if not for all of the drama about Big Sur and CCC.

How many more years can I get out of my Retinas?

I bought rMBP 2 solely because these are the last laptops where you can remove the SSD. (Even with all that I have read in the last two days, I am NOT comfortable handing over my laptop - with all of my data on it - knowing that I can no longer physically remove the hard-drive and destroy it.

So does it make sense to take the leap and switch to APFS and Big Sur on older Intel technology??

I am thinking I will be okay, but am curious to hear what you all think.


Issue #2:
As mentioned several times, rebuilding a machine is a HELLISH process for me, and one where I'd prefer a root canal at the dentist over doing that.

I have been the same free, but outdated VoIP for the last 8 years, and a switch to 64-bit Big Sur means I lose all 12 of my telephone numbers?! And it means I will likely have to change the whole way that I make phone calls - and possibly for the worse. ;-(

There is the fact that I have spent the last two years trying to get my rMBP to do what I want it to with recording audio, and I hate to have to risk breaking all of that.

At the same time, there is a vital Chrome add-on that I use ever day that no longer works on macOS Sierra. And I am running into mor ethings that won't work because my OS is outdated.

Again, I could switch to Mojave, and probably not miss a beat - until it is no longer supported in a few weeks, and then I might be right back to where I am no!

So I am thinking that upgrading to Big Sur is a sweet spot that would buy me another 5 years, HOWEVER it is related to Issue #1 above.


Issue #3:
I am really trying to make some big leaps in my life and business. And catching up with modern times, and using modern technology, is part of that.

If I want to buy and learn things like Final Cut Pro, and get into the Adobe suite of products, having decnt hardware and software matters.

If need be, I could buy a new MacBook Pro, however I don't rust the technology!!!

As already mentioned, it INFURIATES ME that I con no longer remove the hard-drive from my laptop. The nerve!

I also am very nervous about this whole, "If your hardware fails, then you lose all of your data and your computer, and you throw it in a landfill and give Tim Cook even more of your $$$."

WTF??

Newer is often NOT better - especially with technology.

Stability and time are more important to me than having the "latest and greatest" technology, and I cannot beleive I am saying this, but those previous two things also are more important to me than security.

"What?!" you say.

Well, privacy and security mean the world to me, HOWEVER, I feel my data is already super secure. But when I lose the ability to remove my hard-drive and when the system fails then I lose all of my data, then that doesn't seem like a security improvement.

(To be clear, when I say "Lose all of my data" I mean "ose control fo all of my data." Obviously I will have tons of backups/clones.)

So am I at a crossroads when I have to break down and buy a new lapptop as well??

I think my two rMBP's will last me another 4-5 years - and by then there might not even be a world, so I'm good with that timeline.

If learning and getting comfortable with APFS and Big Sur is nerve-rakcing, then settling into new Apple laptop technology is enough to give me a stroke!!


So what do you all advise me to do next???