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thadoggfather

macrumors P6
Oct 1, 2007
16,125
17,042
Eh I dunno if I really agree tbh

Should preface I love my M1 Air to pieces, the performance it offers power efficiency wise and in general has me longing for literally nothing more and I get desktop class juice and iPad like battery life out of this wafer thin machine that doesn't have any active cooling whatsoever, which I loved about the 12" MB even though that one got a bit toasty and was laggy.

...but It almost makes you wonder: why spend close to $2k for an M1 machine (spec'd out iMac or 12.9 Pro) when you can spend $699 for the same thing guts wise with a Mac mini, or $899 (with edu) for an Air that's portable and still has a screen? And a more open OS than iOS?

M1 is running circles around x86, true, but I'm not sure it being offered across so many different price points and form factors is really what is evidence of 'mockery'

More like, high margin for Apple while really happy customers. Win-win value prop on both sides of the aisle. I still think they should beef up M1 more, in M1x or M2 or something if you're going to fork over more.
 
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JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
The M1 feels like we are approaching the end of an era.

A long time ago, CPU improvements meant higher single-core performance. If you upgraded once every 3 years, you expected something like 5x higher performance for the same price.

That came to an end ~15 years ago. At first, manufacturers tried using the increased transistor budget for more CPU cores, but consumers didn't really care about that. 4-core processors were common in 2010, and they are still common in consumer devices. Most people don't use their computers for things that benefit from a large number of cores.

A parallel development focused on delivering the same performance with less power. The first laptops I used were much slower than desktops with a similar price. This improved slowly, but in the 2010s we got used to the idea that a thin lightweight laptop like the MBP could deliver near-desktop level performance for a reasonable price.

With the M1, even that seems to be coming to an end. By using the same hardware in devices from the iPad to the iMac, Apple seems to believe that consumers no longer care about higher performance. The returns from increased power efficiency are also diminishing, because the display will soon dominate the power consumption in normal use. Maybe we will see the same hardware in even smaller and smaller devices, but consumer computers are approaching the point where they are simply good enough.

That may mean greater divergence between computers for consumers and power users. Most people may not need a faster computer, but I could easily find uses for a desktop with thousands of CPU cores and petabytes of memory.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
The M1 feels like we are approaching the end of an era.

A long time ago, CPU improvements meant higher single-core performance. If you upgraded once every 3 years, you expected something like 5x higher performance for the same price.

That came to an end ~15 years ago. At first, manufacturers tried using the increased transistor budget for more CPU cores, but consumers didn't really care about that. 4-core processors were common in 2010, and they are still common in consumer devices. Most people don't use their computers for things that benefit from a large number of cores.

A parallel development focused on delivering the same performance with less power. The first laptops I used were much slower than desktops with a similar price. This improved slowly, but in the 2010s we got used to the idea that a thin lightweight laptop like the MBP could deliver near-desktop level performance for a reasonable price.

With the M1, even that seems to be coming to an end. By using the same hardware in devices from the iPad to the iMac, Apple seems to believe that consumers no longer care about higher performance. The returns from increased power efficiency are also diminishing, because the display will soon dominate the power consumption in normal use. Maybe we will see the same hardware in even smaller and smaller devices, but consumer computers are approaching the point where they are simply good enough.

That may mean greater divergence between computers for consumers and power users. Most people may not need a faster computer, but I could easily find uses for a desktop with thousands of CPU cores and petabytes of memory.

This is a weird take. Apple has increased single-core performance by 20%, year after year, for a decade. If anything, this is the beginning of an era - now, instead of choosing between a thousand identical machines that differ only by specs, Apple will offer unique machines. Instead of worrying about the CPU, you can worry about whether the machine gets the job done for you.

And your take is backward - apple didn’t put a low end chip in its entire range, believing that “consumers no longer care about higher performance.” It put a very high performance chip in low end machines. And in June we will learn about a new higher-end processor, faster than all but Intel CPUs costing thousands of dollars each, that will occupy Apple’s mid- through high-end.
 

minvoyager

macrumors member
May 16, 2014
64
10
Could Apple offer a computer that has several M1 chips - rather than using more powerful M1X or M2 etc?

An M1 chip with 16Gb - when paired with another such M1 chip - could give the 32GB and double CPU power that many people are needing, such as for high end video production.

That way, it could increase its production efficiency in manufacturing only one chip that can be used, as we've seen, iPads, Macs and, who knows, even iPhones.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
Could Apple offer a computer that has several M1 chips - rather than using more powerful M1X or M2 etc?

An M1 chip with 16Gb - when paired with another such M1 chip - could give the 32GB and double CPU power that many people are needing, such as for high end video production.

That way, it could increase its production efficiency in manufacturing only one chip that can be used, as we've seen, iPads, Macs and, who knows, even iPhones.

They could, but they won’t. Multi-socket never really makes engineering sense. You lose a lot of performance with off-chip crossbars/buses. Far better to simply add more cores to the die, especially since Arm cores are small and yields are good.
 

haralds

macrumors 68030
Jan 3, 2014
2,990
1,252
Silicon Valley, CA
The key element of Apple Silicon is system-level design in the SoC providing higher and specialized performance. In the past we integrated FPU and GPU and got stuck there. Even North Bridge/South Bridge were on a different chip. Now everything is integrated on a single carrier including RAM and special-purpose sections of the CPU do neural, image, and other specialized processing tasks deeply integrated with the OS and driven by applications.
Responsive vertical integration is going to be tough to beat.
 
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JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
And your take is backward - apple didn’t put a low end chip in its entire range, believing that “consumers no longer care about higher performance.” It put a very high performance chip in low end machines. And in June we will learn about a new higher-end processor, faster than all but Intel CPUs costing thousands of dollars each, that will occupy Apple’s mid- through high-end.
You missed the intent. By releasing an iPad and an iMac using the same chip at the same time, Apple sent a signal that the existing chip is already good enough for most consumers. If there is going to be an even better chip in a couple of months, that makes the signal even stronger. By not offering a higher-end option at launch, Apple tells us it doesn't believe most consumers would care about the option.
 
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cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
You missed the intent. By releasing an iPad and an iMac using the same chip at the same time, Apple sent a signal that the existing chip is already good enough for most consumers. If there is going to be an even better chip in a couple of months, that makes the signal even stronger. By not offering a higher-end option at launch, Apple tells us it doesn't believe most consumers would care about the option.

Ah, I see. Well, they are right. Most people don’t need workstation-quality processors in their computers. Most people prefer long battery life and are willing to sacrifice a half second for their web page to load.

But that’s always been the case with apple - that’s their modus operandi.
 

Gnattu

macrumors 65816
Sep 18, 2020
1,107
1,671
By not offering a higher-end option at launch, Apple tells us it doesn't believe most consumers would care about the option.
The first three Mac models get the M1 are the "best selling models" according to Apple's own claim. It makes perfect sense to work on the best-selling ones first, then focus on niche markets. It is not "believe or not", it's a choice based on data analysis.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,679
By not offering a higher-end option at launch, Apple tells us it doesn't believe most consumers would care about the option.

Production capacity and component supply is limited. Not to mention that releasing multiple products at one carries increased risk. If you try to do too much, you often end up having done nothing. Apple’s strategy makes a lot of sense from business perspective.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
Eh I dunno if I really agree tbh

Should preface I love my M1 Air to pieces, the performance it offers power efficiency wise and in general has me longing for literally nothing more and I get desktop class juice and iPad like battery life out of this wafer thin machine that doesn't have any active cooling whatsoever, which I loved about the 12" MB even though that one got a bit toasty and was laggy.

...but It almost makes you wonder: why spend close to $2k for an M1 machine (spec'd out iMac or 12.9 Pro) when you can spend $699 for the same thing guts wise with a Mac mini, or $899 (with edu) for an Air that's portable and still has a screen? And a more open OS than iOS?

M1 is running circles around x86, true, but I'm not sure it being offered across so many different price points and form factors is really what is evidence of 'mockery'

More like, high margin for Apple while really happy customers. Win-win value prop on both sides of the aisle. I still think they should beef up M1 more, in M1x or M2 or something if you're going to fork over more.

Well the iMac is giving including an integrated 24" 4.5k screen and a better web cam and audio system than the MBA or the Mini (which completely lacks these features). For a lot of people stuck on endless Zoom calls this matters.

A 2k 12.9" iPad Pro has a much better screen than any of the M1 Macs, FaceId login and of course touch and pen support. It also allows you to spec a 5G modem and a detachable keyboard and track pad. These features may be overpriced but they still have value.
 

thadoggfather

macrumors P6
Oct 1, 2007
16,125
17,042
Well the iMac is giving including an integrated 24" 4.5k screen and a better web cam and audio system than the MBA or the Mini (which completely lacks these features). For a lot of people stuck on endless Zoom calls this matters.

A 2k 12.9" iPad Pro has a much better screen than any of the M1 Macs, FaceId login and of course touch and pen support. It also allows you to spec a 5G modem and a detachable keyboard and track pad. These features may be overpriced but they still have value.

not saying they dont

just when you get to the top end SKUs it doesn’t make as much sense IMO

but I’ve felt that way even w a series and Intel chips
 

Bodhitree

macrumors 68020
Apr 5, 2021
2,085
2,217
Netherlands
By releasing an iPad and an iMac using the same chip at the same time, Apple sent a signal that the existing chip is already good enough for most consumers.

Yes that’s right. But I think you also have to see it in context. Apple has stated in the past that they were unhappy with Intel’s yearly updates, and they feel there is more performance to be gotten from their own architecture. So you can expect an M2 and an M3 and an M4, on a yearly schedule delivering 20% year on year gains.

By using these chips in a wide array of devices they get good economies of scale in the manufacturing, and they leverage the silicon design into a performance uplift for the entire product range every year. It makes a lot of sense from a business strategy point of view, if you have a chip that is fast enough and has low-enough power needs.

The M1 chip is fast enough for the majority of Apple’s users. It will run Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign just fine, it’s more than performant enough for Office users, web developers or most programmers. It’s just the power users who have to wait a little longer...
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
not saying they dont

just when you get to the top end SKUs it doesn’t make as much sense IMO

but I’ve felt that way even w a series and Intel chips
I think that depends on if you need (or want) what the top end SKUs are giving you. I have a 1st gen 12.9" iPad Pro and I can't see myself switching back to smaller one. I also can't see myself buying an iPad without a cellular modem, every iPad I have ever owned had one. I would probably bump up storage too because one thing iPads are great for is pre-loading video from your favorite content provider before getting on a train or plane.

At that point I am at $1,400 and that's before adding the keyboard which is another $350. $1,750 is M1 MBP territory of course so the iPad Pro is definitely a luxury product. However, it is better suited to some requirements than a Macbook.
 

robco74

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
509
944
I wonder if now instead of the X or Z modifiers, if we'll just start seeing the generation and core counts. So we'll get an M2 4/4/7 and 4/4/8 option like M1, but also maybe a 6/4/12, 8/4/16, etc.
 
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Internaut

macrumors 65816
It is, on the face of it, a statement of the bleedin' obvious. For Apple's own processors, the idea of market segmentation seems to have gone out of the window. You can buy the base Mac Mini or a tricked out M1 MacBook Pro (or iMac); they're the same thing. And since all these devices are, or are going to, sell like hotcakes, it's giving Apple a nice economy of scale with their fabricator for that SooC.

What happens next is harder to fathom. Will an M2 (or M1X) simply replace M1, in manufacturing, while at the same bringing higher end products (e.g. an iMac Pro analogue) into the M fold?
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
It is, on the face of it, a statement of the bleedin' obvious. For Apple's own processors, the idea of market segmentation seems to have gone out of the window. You can buy the base Mac Mini or a tricked out M1 MacBook Pro (or iMac); they're the same thing. And since all these devices are, or are going to, sell like hotcakes, it's giving Apple a nice economy of scale with their fabricator for that SooC.
They really aren't the same thing. The low end 13" MBP was never much more powerful than the MBA, you were paying for a better screen (less of an issue with the newer MBAs) and other non-CPU improvements.

The 12" MacBook had the worst CPU in the Mac range but cost more than the MBA at the time.
 
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mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
11,296
Sounds more like an ad disguised as an article. Doesn't make sense to buy a desktop with a laptop processor when you can just connect laptop to an external monitor. All-in-one has limited appeal except for first time buyers then they learn and buy/build something like an AMD desktop that scales from 6-core to 8, 12 and 16-cores by just replacing CPU vs disposing of whole computer/monitor, not limited to 16GB RAM and supporting dGPU.
 
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cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,474
California
Sounds more like an ad disguised as an article. Doesn't make sense to buy a desktop with a laptop processor when you can just connect laptop to an external monitor. All-in-one has limited appeal except for first time buyers then they learn and buy/build something like an AMD desktop that scales from 6-core to 8, 12 and 16-cores by just replacing CPU vs disposing of whole computer/monitor, not limited to 16GB RAM and supporting dGPU.

the number of people replacing their processors is trivially small. I made my own CPUs and yet I never replaced one - by the time I wanted to upgrade, I also wanted to upgrade motherboards, graphics, and everything else.

And apple isn’t putting a laptop processor in a desktop. It is putting a desktop processor in a laptop.
 
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