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levander

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 21, 2011
263
168
If you divide the forum up into 1.) people ranting against Apple for the recent quality problems, and 2.) the people who think the ranters are just being a bunch of loudmouths.... I want to ask the second group, what realistic expectations should we have for Apple quality?

I’m willing to accept recent quality performance is an anomaly and Apple will recover. But from people who have a longer term perspective of Apple, what quality levels should we expect from Apple? I’m asking because I’ve been buying Apple mobile and TV products for about five years now and have been recommending them to friends and family, some of whom have bought on my recommendation. But I’m really thinking about jumping ship now.

If you’re one of those guys who says they’ve only ever had two or three problems with Apple, I’m not gonna ask you not to post, but please identify yourselves so I can adjust my interpretations as well as I’m able to.
 

levander

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 21, 2011
263
168
Well, I just realized this forum called “Apple Inc and Tech Industry” is in a section called “Apple Tv and Apple Services”. So apparently it’s not as generally focused a forum as I thought it was...

But I’m looking and don’t see a way to move or delete this thread...

Newbie mistake. Sorry guys.
 

Frankied22

macrumors 68000
Nov 24, 2010
1,787
594
I have been pretty deep into Apple since I first got a 3GS back in 2009. Over the years they have definitely had some flukes and let downs but every time I tried to switch away and test out other platforms I was just left even more disappointed and came back to Apple. While I am positive some of that is just going back to what is familiar and what I am accustom to, I will say that over all those years I have also tried out new Android flagships once or twice a year (Early Droid phones, Nexus, OnePlus, and Pixel) and have had a custom built gaming pc running windows alongside my Macs. I am comfortable with all the platforms and I consider myself quite knowledgable on the features and inner workings of all these platforms. I find it amusing when Apple people criticize Android but have not even used the OS before or in the last couple years, and are just talking from the experience they had years ago with a junk phone or never had to begin with. The same goes for Android and Windows users criticizing Apple. I would wager the VAST majority of Apple bashers have never used an Apple product in their lives except maybe an iPod, or played with an Apple device in a store briefly. The price of Apple products plays a large role in people hating them. They have never used them so they don't see the price worth the specs on a sheet of paper. Or they are so used to Windows/Android that the minute they try to use something different they just get frustrated and go "NO!" and rush back to what they are used to.

All that being said, I DO think Apple has been making some serious missteps lately. Are they enough for me to pack it all up and switch platforms completely? Not quite yet. Like I said, I shift between these platforms regularly and there is A LOT to be desired in Android and Windows. The grass is not always greener on the other side. Windows, while having the greatest legacy features and compatibility with software, is still lipstick on a pig. It is aesthetically ugly and there are many QoL features missing that come standard in Apple devices. The same goes for Android. While I love the customization and openness of Android, it has too many cracks that begin to show and makes the whole experience just feel... off. It is not as cohesive or well thought out as iOS. And being able to torrent on your phone, emulate old games on your phone, or "rice" out your desktop is neat to show off at first, but quickly loses its allure. Eventually you want a smooth, stable experience that just works. Also, let's not forget Apple nailed down the messaging side of things 8 years ago while Android is still a fragmented mess. If you have a lot of contacts that you use iMessage/FaceTime with...forget switching. It's a nightmare and you'll never get all of them to switch to some third party messaging app. It is flat out an INFERIOR messaging experience.

Apple has always been about reliability, smoothness, and ease of use. Sadly, some of this is falling to the wayside with the new Apple. There have been a lot of bugs in iOS 13 and Catalina, along with some very silly design and feature change choices. Are these things that bad that the platform is dead? Of course not. Plenty of people still use their devices everyday and get work done on them with no problems. The one nice thing about Apple is they tend to rather quickly address major software issues, and correct them. There will outrage for a week and then they'll fix it. This just happened with the RAM management bug in iOS 13. It became a headline, and like a week later, Apple pushed a new iOS update that fixed it. Off the top of my head I can also recall the time FaceTime was bugged and letting you see other people without them accepting the call. That was patched very quickly. The HomePod update bricked some HomePods, and Apple immediately pulled the update, and like a week later released a fixed update. Do you think Google, Amazon, or Microsoft would have fixed those issues that quickly? I highly doubt it. There are issues with Android and Windows that have been around for a very long time that Google and Microsoft have still not addressed or fixed. It is unfortunate that more and more of these instances keep popping up for Apple but at least they are addressing them. The same goes for privacy. I don't naively completely trust any mega corp but at least Apple is being vocal about keeping personal data private and secure, and not trying to make tons of money off selling personalized ads from your data. Have they been hypocrites on certain issues when it comes to privacy? Absolutely. Just look at their business in China. Should we completely trust them? No. They got "found out" about using contractors to listen to Siri snippets like every other company and quickly changed the policy to an opt-in so people would look away. Privacy is first and foremost a marketing angle for Apple, but at least they aren't running rampant with data harvesting, data breaches, and selling ad space. Google just got busted collecting health data on millions of people right after they announced they're buying Fitbit to get even more health data.

On the hardware side of things I think Apple is doing OK. The new iPhones are beasts. The cameras are top notch, the battery life is excellent, and the screen tech is always getting better across all their products. Audio is another area where people often overlook Apple. Their audio team does some great work with what they got. The HomePod sounds great. The speaker system on the new 16" MBP is supposedly very impressive. iPad IS the tablet market. Apple Watch IS the wearable market. AirPods are dominating wireless earbuds. I just saw an article the other day that said if AirPods were their own company it would be like the 32nd best company in the US or something because they've sold so many. The last 5 years of Macs has been very unfortunate, and that is my biggest issue with Apple right now. I want to see more commitment to the Mac, and more innovation. I think the Touch Bar is still a gimmick and the keyboard they've pushed on people for four years now was a disaster. This new 16" MBP is a return to form (minus still including that Touch Bar) and the closest I have ever seen to Apple going back on their decisions. It is basically an admission that the butterfly keyboard was a mistake and the Touch Bar to a certain extent (return of physical ESC key). The iMacs and Mac mini's are still a joke in my opinion for what you get for the price. The new Mac Pro is nice but no average Joe is dropping $6k on one. They are very niche. At least Apple kept the new MBP at the same price point. I was almost certain it would come in at $2999, but I was pleasantly surprised. I think having it just flat out replace the 15" at the same price points is a great idea, along with them finally bumping up the base specs. Now I want to see the same thing done to the 13" MBP with a 14" version. That will have mass appeal to an average consumer. The 16" MBP is still priced very high for most people. That being said, I can't find ANY windows laptop that has those same specs for that price. As soon as you go above a 1080p screen on a windows laptop the prices get absurd, and I would never go back to a 1080p screen on any laptop.


This has turned into a very long rant but in the end I just want to say that yes, I think Apple has way more on their plate now and certain things we loved them for are slipping (quality control, hardware innovation, Macs, software stability, etc). However, they seem to be addressing these things as quickly as they can and I will tell you first hand, the alternatives out there are FAR WORSE when looking at as a complete package and ecosystem. There is nothing as nice as an Apple ecosystem. There are pros and cons to it, but it is hands down the best one right now.



And oh yea...I don't care about Apple's new push into services. I get they are doing it for money, but so far they really need to amp it up. News+ is a joke. Apple TV+ is a joke (at least they're giving a year away free), Apple Arcade is good but I don't play mobile games, iCloud needs some work, and Apple Music is not quite at Spotify's level yet but its getting there. I think a lot of these missteps we are seeing from Apple are probably coming from the fact that they are focusing a lot on making new profit growth from services.
 

ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,335
3,012
Between the coasts
Discussions of this sort are based on subjective judgement, rather than objective measure. How much of "I’m willing to accept recent quality performance is an anomaly and Apple will recover..." is perception, how much is fact? That statement includes what I consider to be an assumption - that recent quality performance is, in fact, anomalous. Is it? I wouldn't know, I don't have any numbers.

In my memory (in my perception), there have always been issues of one sort or another, there have always been assumptions that the current situation (whatever and whenever it was) was anomalously bad. Always warnings to not install the latest OS; always tales of disaster.

It does not mean the people who had these problems did not have them. The question is whether statistically the current crop of issues is out of the ordinary. For all we know, despite the articles and internet posts, the percentage of users impacted and the severity of that impact could be lower than it was in the past.

This is not about Apple, or Google, Samsung... it's about human nature. The more we expect from someone/something, the less likely we are to accept/dismiss a failing. Do we clearly remember "the good old days" or a "painful past," or are those perceptions filtered through our personalities?
 

AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,677
The Peninsula
I want to ask the second group, what realistic expectations should we have for Apple quality?
You should expect that Apple will try to please its shareholders, not its customers.

There are some intersections to temper that - for example if you piss off all of your customers, it will probably not make the shareholders happy.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
If you divide the forum up into 1.) people ranting against Apple for the recent quality problems, and 2.) the people who think the ranters are just being a bunch of loudmouths.... I want to ask the second group, what realistic expectations should we have for Apple quality?

I’m willing to accept recent quality performance is an anomaly and Apple will recover. But from people who have a longer term perspective of Apple, what quality levels should we expect from Apple? I’m asking because I’ve been buying Apple mobile and TV products for about five years now and have been recommending them to friends and family, some of whom have bought on my recommendation. But I’m really thinking about jumping ship now.

If you’re one of those guys who says they’ve only ever had two or three problems with Apple, I’m not gonna ask you not to post, but please identify yourselves so I can adjust my interpretations as well as I’m able to.


We all expect at least minimal level. But everyone's expectations are different, so your dealing with a moving target.

For me,, i hope they will realize customers are customers as well.

You should expect that Apple will try to please its shareholders, not its customers.

There are some intersections to temper that - for example if you piss off all of your customers, it will probably not make the shareholders happy.

I hate this society.. its all about money... Apple would plea if all that money disappeared. It's not that bad being 2nd best
 
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levander

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 21, 2011
263
168
I guess it comes down to what problems you’ve had with Apple. I didn’t have any problems with Apple about the first four years I was buying their stuff for myself and family. This last year has been terrible.

First thing that happened, I have 2 Apple TV HD’s and 2 Apple TV 4K’s. I was using 480p resolution on all my TV’s because if I do that we stay under our ISP’s 1 TB monthly data cap. At 720p we don’t. When tvOS 12.1 came out, the two Apple TV 4K’s fried the HDMI ports in the TV’s they were connected to. And I can no longer use 480p with either Apple TV 4K. The Apple TV HD’s work fine with 480p. So what I did was I moved the Apple TV’s around so the Apple TV HD’s are on my main TV’s and the Apple TV 4K’s are on my other TV’s. We just have to make sure not to watch the other TV’s too much.

After figuring that out, I call Apple. Bunch of back and forth, collecting logs, Apple engineering verified it’s a bug that happens with some, but not all TV’s and a fix should released in an upcoming update. I wait four months, there!s no update. So I call back to ask Apple what they were going to do about the warranty on my Apple TV 4K’s that they broke with their update? They had verified the devices were under original warranty during the original calls. So I’m put on hold and I guess there’s some scuffling, and they come back and say they’ve entered into their Internal system a second case, and a bug fix should be forthcoming... Well, that’s what I really want anyway, so I say fine. Another four months pass, no update. So I call back in again and I’m explaining the issue to another Senior adviser and he’s confused the whole time I’m talking to him. And he actually just hangs up the phone on me. So I give him a bad survey and I call back in again. This time the senior adviser talks to me, but explains there’s no record of this being a verified issue. That there must just be something wrong with my devices...

Anyway, this post is getting too long, basically where this issue is is I’ve had another issue with CarPlay I wrote the tcook@apple.com email address about. And they did respond to that (although not when I emailed them about the Apple TV). I emailed the non-tech girl in charge of my CarPlay case about the Apple TV issue I’ve got and at first she just says “Contact Apple Care, if engineering needs to get involved they will”. So I write her back saying “Engineering did get involved...” and told her the same thing again, only shorter this time. That was about five days ago. I haven’t heard anything back from her. I don’t know if I will.

You guys who think people are being loudmouths about the problems people are having with iOS 13, how normal is that kind of behavior from Apple? I’m wondering if it’s the result of backed up engineering problems and things that should be taken care of are not being. But I don’t really know.
 

levander

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 21, 2011
263
168
Well, there were comments earlier in the thread we have no metrics to show whether or not there were more problems with iOS 13. This article doesn’t have any “smoking guns”, but does have quotes from anonymous people “familiar with the development of” and a few well known developers of Apple apps:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...14-features-changes-testing-after-ios-13-bugs

I consider that article a best case scenario of what has happened, and I hope for us Apple users it’s an accurate portrayal.

But when I was working in software development labs, if you checked something in that was so buggy people couldn’t use builds of it, you were lambasted and criticized. At Apple how they’re handling it apparently is they’ve invented a concept called Flags where their software developers can still check in their buggy-ass code. Just other people can turn off their code by using some Flags system...

I left a job I had one time because they promoted someone to manager who didn’t understand how important it was to get your code working before checking it in. That was the last straw for me at that place and I just decided to move on. At Apple apparently they’re now developing software systems to enable people to check in buggy code. Don’t know why they can’t get it working good enough before they check it in.
 
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