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iMi

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I was thinking about this today while reading about another iconic American brand that isn't doing so well. What would the world look like today had Steve Jobs never returned to Apple and the company went bankrupt back in 1997? Imagine Apple would ceased to exist at that point.

Who would have emerged as the leader? What would the smartphone market look like? Music? Education? Computers? Corporate governance?

It's an interesting thought experiment.
 

Scepticalscribe

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In a coffee shop.
I was thinking about this today while reading about another iconic American brand that isn't doing so well. What would the world look like today had Steve Jobs never returned to Apple and the company went bankrupt back in 1997? Imagine Apple would ceased to exist at that point.

Who would have emerged as the leader? What would the smartphone market look like? Music? Education? Computers? Corporate governance?

It's an interesting thought experiment.

Russia went bankrupt (and defaulted on their debt) in the late 1990s. And it is still with us, and had returned to economic growth within a decade.

Therefore, I don't think that bankruptcy - per se - is the issue here, and @Zenithal has offered a few interesting thoughts on possible alternatives.

Where Apple was revolutionary was not just in the obvious - the OS, and the design of stunning, beautiful objects that worked well, that fusion of form and function that is the expression of good industrial design.

Of far greater importance is how Apple revolutionised the music industry - transforming the relationship between buyer/consumer and music creator and producer (and - yes - murdering the record companies in the process), and subsequent to that, introducing the highly profitable concept of renting music - the rentier model - to the music and entertainment industry.

That is explosive and transformational stuff, and I am not sure that the industry would have developed in quite the same manner economically without Apple, although I have little doubt that some sort of technically equivalent devices (on the lines of iPhones, if not iPods) would have made an appearance sooner or later.
 

S.B.G

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I was thinking about this today while reading about another iconic American brand that isn't doing so well. What would the world look like today had Steve Jobs never returned to Apple and the company went bankrupt back in 1997? Imagine Apple would ceased to exist at that point.

Who would have emerged as the leader? What would the smartphone market look like? Music? Education? Computers? Corporate governance?

It's an interesting thought experiment.
Even if they declared bankruptcy it doesn't always mean a company goes out of business.
 

iMi

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Even if they declared bankruptcy it doesn't always mean a company goes out of business.

I realize that... that's why it's just a thought experiment. Apple in some form would likely continue or it's best parts would have been sold off and developed by someone else. But still, the world would be different today. No doubt. Right?
 

S.B.G

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I realize that... that's why it's just a thought experiment. Apple in some form would likely continue or it's best parts would have been sold off and developed by someone else. But still, the world would be different today. No doubt. Right?
Sure, anythings possible in that situation. I like to think that Apple would have still come out with all these great products had Microsoft not infused them with capital they needed. It might have just taken longer.
 

0388631

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Sep 10, 2009
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Fun fact, Microsoft and Apple still hold a fairly close relationship outside of typical competition. They both borrow on each others contributions as per what I've been told was a gentleman's agreement. It's why with Windows 7, mainly, you began seeing many OSX features popup and the same with OSX borrowing from Windows. Both OSs in their modern variant are fairly similar now. It's up to users to see which one they prefer the most. Some like both!

I'm glad I never bought a Palm device though. I was tempted on too many an occasion with "low" prices.
 

iMi

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Maybe people would of bought Windows phones. :p

If the Surface Phone is everything the rumor mill says it is, I sure will buy one!

Funny how the roles have reversed? Back in the day Apple was the ecosystem with missing apps and nearly complete lack of support from developers. I remember telling someone at work back in the early 2000's that I've got a Mac and they said "what's that?" hahaha... I remember us not having MS office. Now, it seems like Windows 10 Mobile is like this...
 

maflynn

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May 3, 2009
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Smartphone era would have been much delayed. Blackberry would be more relevant today than they are. The Palm device company may not have suffered a quick death as a result.
I think its hard to say these things, because Blackberry was (is?) so tied to the physical keyboard that made them, so another company would have probably came up with the idea of a software keyboard and BB would still have resisted it.

Palm would also be in the same place they are today (non-exstance), because of the ease a phone handles so many functions that the stand alone Palm did

Maybe people would of bought Windows phones. :p
MS was so hung up on the design and function of WinCE that they would have continued down the same path, i.e., not changing WinCE and I think the results would have been similar, i.e., someone else eating their lunch. They screwed up an opportunity if they were just a bit more forward thinking and innovative.

what I've been told was a gentleman's agreement.
Its not a gentlemen's agreement and there's no such thing in business. Jobs hated MS, but he knew he needed them. Basically for the cash infusion, Apple agreed to drop the lawsuits that were in the pipeline and agreed not sue anymore so its a bit more binding then a handshake.

At one point MS thought it needed to succeed by seeing Apple fail, and I Apple thought the same thing (remember those I'm a PC commercials). Now with a new CEO, MS is moving to services and see Apple as just another way to make money.
 
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Savor

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We would still have removable batteries and more micro-sd slots in our phones. Charging them would be universal. Apple revolutionized the music and mobile industries but also hindered them both.
 
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Tech198

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I was thinking about this today while reading about another iconic American brand that isn't doing so well. What would the world look like today had Steve Jobs never returned to Apple and the company went bankrupt back in 1997? Imagine Apple would ceased to exist at that point.

Who would have emerged as the leader? What would the smartphone market look like? Music? Education? Computers? Corporate governance?

It's an interesting thought experiment.

The mind boogles...

I don't wanna think about it, but I guess MR wouldn't be rumor mill wouldn't be churning..... There would be no Apple rumors.

Dell may be in top,, ASUS, PC market would increase, (instead of decline). .... basically the complete opposite of today.

(...and we'd be all be carrying around Android phones) not that there's any problem with that either
 

keysofanxiety

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Nov 23, 2011
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What would the world look like today had Steve Jobs never returned to Apple and the company went bankrupt back in 1997?

I don't think money would have been much of a concern. Leadership definitely would have been.

Jobs had a fantastic consumer view of the whole thing, and as he was at the top, he could make the decisions. He wasn't an engineer, which in a strange way made him the perfect man for the job. He got rid of confusing product lines. Everything had to conform to a certain aesthetic. He went from the user experience and worked backwards; not the mentality of 'what new technology can we shoehorn into our products'.

This video, taken in 1997 when he just arrived back at the helm, absolutely nails it. He properly had his back against the wall as well.

 
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iMi

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I don't think money would have been much of a concern. Leadership definitely would have been.

Jobs had a fantastic consumer view of the whole thing, and as he was at the top, he could make the decisions. He wasn't an engineer, which in a strange way made him the perfect man for the job. He got rid of confusing product lines. Everything had to conform to a certain aesthetic. He went from the user experience and worked backwards; not the mentality of 'what new technology can we shoehorn into our products'.

This video, taken in 1997 when he just arrived back at the helm, absolutely nails it. He properly had his back against the wall as well.


I'm gonna go on the record as saying the guy asking the question is a douchebag. Just saying... Jobs was indeed brilliant.
 

phrehdd

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Oct 25, 2008
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Smartphone era would have been much delayed. Blackberry would be more relevant today than they are. The Palm device company may not have suffered a quick death as a result.

PDA's already were being accessorized by cell phone ability. Perhaps a few of the PDA makers may have later come out with built in cell phone capability as some were already starting to use a Linux like OS.
 

maflynn

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May 3, 2009
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This video, taken in 1997 when he just arrived back at the helm, absolutely nails it. He properly had his back against the wall as well.
Wow, I just rewatched that video (there's a longer version where Jobs goes on to explain why he killed off a number of Apple initiatives).

The thing that struck me, is how adamant he was to take the user experience and work backwards, not take the technology the Apple Engineers have and see how to sell it. The thought that instantly came to my mind is the Apple Watch. I see a product where the engineers came up with a good product (I have one myself) but it wasn't derived imo as something from the end user experience backwards.
 
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theluggage

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Jul 29, 2011
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Who would have emerged as the leader? What would the smartphone market look like? Music? Education? Computers? Corporate governance?

So here's an alternative history: 1997, Sony buys the "Macintosh/Mac" trademarks at the bankruptcy sale, and few years thereafter, their Vaio range of high-end laptops and SFF systems get rebranded as Macs although they're x86 machines running Sony's customised version of Windows with a few Mac-like flourishes and maybe a rather slow MacOS Classic emulator. Then, a certain S. Jobs has an idea about how the newly emerging MP3 players could be improved and turned into the Next Big Thing and chooses Sony as the obvious target for his pitch... In 2004, Sony launch the new "MacWalkman" and use their position in the music biz to tie it to the "Mac Tunes" music service. A few years later, they integrate this into the new "PhoneMan"... 2016 rolls round and the world looks much like it does today, except the DRM is much worse and Tim Cook is CEO of the hugely successful "Apple Leather Goods" retail empire, having made a fortune selling bands for Sony WalkWatches.

(Historical note: Even in '97 with its desktop line going down the toilet, PowerBook hardware was nice. Sony are virtually out of the game today but, at the time, nothing said "I wanted a PowerBook but the boss said I had to have a PC" like a Sony Vaio. Of course, Sony and Apple collaborated on the original Powerbook which defined the design of the modern laptop. MacOS 9 was dying anyway - OS X owes more to Jobs' NeXTStep than it does to classic MacOS. )

More realistic overall prediction: probably on the same trajectory, but some years behind where we are now, and with MS in a much stronger monopoly position. Apple never pulled brand new ideas out of the raw firmament, but they were very, very good at spotting upcoming ideas, refining them and turning them into must-have mass market products.

Of far greater importance is how Apple revolutionised the music industry

++this. Bear in mind that a major raison d'etre for the iPhone must have been as an iTunes platform (the non-Music App market was a bit serendipitous, though).

Even if they declared bankruptcy it doesn't always mean a company goes out of business.

See whimsy above. However, a breakup with some large PC maker buying the trademarks and MS buying the other IP is feasible.

MS was so hung up on the design and function of WinCE that they would have continued down the same path, i.e., not changing WinCE

...and there would have been a market for that, with MS & Blackberry fighting it out for the corporate market, probably ending with MS doing something anticompetitive to make WinCE the only option for corporate email.

I suspect that the success of the iMac, and later the iPhone and iPad did a lot to weaken the MS monopoly on Windows, Internet Explorer and Office. iMacs and iPhones were sexy, and suddenly executives who had been presiding over MS-only shops wanted to be able to read their email and open documents. The iPad did a lot to persuade people that there was life without Office.

Folks would still be using Windows XP today……

It could be worse. The most serious problem with Win XP isn't Win XP itself, its all the legacy software (and bad developer habits) left over from the DOS days that meant everything had to run with admin privileges.

Most folks many, but not me. I would be using AmigaOS or BeOS.

No you wouldn't. You'd have been beaten into submission because - without huge numbers of Macs and iDevices creating a demand for device-independence - every website would require Internet Explorer, every file would need MS Office or Genuine Adobe Acrobat to open and every peripheral on the market would depend on proprietary drivers only available for Windows.
 
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Savor

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A deeper question, is WHAT IF Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, The Wright Brothers, Thomas Edison, Nikola Telsa, Alexander Bell, Sir Isaac Newton, Leonardo Da Vinci, Galileo, Martin Cooper, and so many other great inventors were never born?

What if IBM, HP, Xerox, Sony, and Motorola never existed, where would Apple be today? Where would Apple be if it wasn't for Steve Wozniak's Apple ][ keeping them afloat for a decade after the Macintosh commercially flopped and Jobs got canned by his own company?

I get that Steve Jobs was a great man and appreciate Apple's influence in industries. But let's NOT pretend Apple invented the cell phone, portable music, tablets, and computers. Difference between inventive and innovative. Harder to be inventive and original than doing a cover song.

All Apple did was trace over other people's work and patted themselves on the back by calling their products revolutionary that works like magic. They revolutionized industries but they weren't the original seed planted in those industries. They weren't the inception to those inventions.

Steve was great but learn to appreciate the many more geniuses that came before him.

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Appreciate The Woz...
 

997440

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....++this. Bear in mind that a major raison d'etre for the iPhone must have been as an iTunes platform (the non-Music App market was a bit serendipitous, though)....
I don't think Apple's entry into the non-music market was luck.

Monkey see monkey do.

.....We launched an advertising campaign designed to cajole the studios into action. A rabble-rousing ad in the Hollywood reporter in 1999 challenged the “lack of broadband” argument which was often used as an excuse not to license content to SightSound. College students were wired. They were about to steal music and movies on an unprecedented scale if the studios and record labels didn’t meet the exploding demand.

Our move into movies caught the eye of Steve Jobs, who in 1997 had returned from exile to lead Apple. SightSound used the same advertising agency as Apple, Chiat Day. A top executive at the agency relayed to me that “Steve was pissed” that SightSound was only selling to computers running Microsoft operating systems.....

.....The letter and ecosystem graphic prompted Steve to arrange a meeting between me, Art, Apple engineer Tom Weyer, and fellow Apple employee and so called “Apple Entertainment Evangelist,” Mark Gavini.

Art remembered the meeting well because it was so disappointing.

“I remember it quite well. We met with Mark Gavini and Tom Weyer from Apple at Shutters on the Beach in Santa Monica to discuss our music download business and aspirations to offer movies as well and to determine if Apple could offer DRM capabilities along the same lines as Microsoft. After a lengthy discussion, Tom and Mark concluded that it would take an entire re-write of their OS to adequately support the level of encryption we would need to satisfy the media and entertainment industry. Tom and Mark also indicated that we should not expect such a re-write anytime soon.”.....
https://medium.com/cuepoint/sightso...ath-squad-for-patents-fe51cc4f9239#.stsp7fel8
Music and non-music downloads would've happened sans Apple. SightSound with MSFT, and with whomever else, were already on that pathway, albeit struggling to penetrate the existing order. As it turned out, fear of MSFT's size enabled Apple (nonthreatening market share) to inch their way into the market, then transform it through iTunes.
 

phrehdd

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Oct 25, 2008
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Maybe IBM would have acquired Apple patents etc.

After all, IBM was at one time in cahoots with Microsoft (for OS/2) and also, if I recall correctly, Apple for "PINK" project.
 
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linkgx1

macrumors 68000
Oct 12, 2011
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Wow, I just rewatched that video (there's a longer version where Jobs goes on to explain why he killed off a number of Apple initiatives).

The thing that struck me, is how adamant he was to take the user experience and work backwards, not take the technology the Apple Engineers have and see how to sell it. The thought that instantly came to my mind is the Apple Watch. I see a product where the engineers came up with a good product (I have one myself) but it wasn't derived imo as something from the end user experience backwards.
I feel this way too. I love my Apple Watch but it's just not....made for everyday human use. I feel like the engineers did so many compromises that we got a whole bunch of half baked features rather than a few really good and useful features.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
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with Microsoft (for OS/2)
IBM wasn't just in cahoots with MS for OS/2, they were a customer with Microsoft from the very beginning of the PC. PC DOS was written by Microsoft, in fact Gate's stroke of genius was to license DOS and not sell it to IBM (which IBM wanted in the first place). MS then set out to license QDOS from Seattle Computer Co, since it was not originally developed in house.

Side note, I wonder how the world would have changed if they did sell DOS to IBM, or IBM licensed CP/M like they originally wanted too (Microsoft wasn't their first choice).
 
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phrehdd

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IBM wasn't just in cahoots with MS for OS/2, they were a customer with Microsoft from the very beginning of the PC. PC DOS was written by Microsoft, in fact Gate's stroke of genius was to license DOS and not sell it to IBM (which IBM wanted in the first place). MS then set out to license QDOS from Seattle Computer Co, since it was not originally developed in house.

Side note, I wonder how the world would have changed if they did sell DOS to IBM, or IBM licensed CP/M like they originally wanted too (Microsoft wasn't their first choice).

Microsoft didn't create or invent any DOS. They bought it for about 50 grand and went into licensing with IBM. Up to version 6.1, PC DOS was just MS DOS rebranded. After 6.1, PC DOS was only an IBM product. Many still consider DOS to have been at best "inspired" and at worst ripped off from CP/M. Ironically, the creator of CP/M ended up later working for Microsoft.

My only chortle was when Bill Gates publicly stated that OS/2 will be the greatest operating system yet. Admittedly, though not an Apple user then, I was very excited about the "Pink" project that didn't get beyond the drawing board.
 
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