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Bubble99

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
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Why does Apple not bring out desktop CPU?

You can tell my looking at this https://technical.city/en/cpu/Apple-M1

Some thing needs to change at Apple. Like how can Apple compete in the desktop class when they bringing out mobile CPU as you can tell looking at the benchmark that desktop Core i3-12100F is way faster and the Core i9-14900KS is light years ahead of the Core i3-12100F

Apple really needs to bring out desktop CPU.
 

stinksroundhere

macrumors regular
May 10, 2024
235
343
The CPUs in the iPad and Macs are not the same even if they have the same M family number. The cooling system, core counts, packaging and power consumption differ depending on model.

There's no point comparing against Intel's messy line ups. Apple's way of scaling a CPU up and down is cleaner.

They have the best desktop class CPU and the best GPU per watt.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
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The CPUs in the iPad and Macs are not the same even if they have the same M family number. The cooling system, core counts, packaging and power consumption differ depending on model.

They have the best desktop class CPU and the best GPU per watt.

Apple does not make desktop CPU”s they are made for laptops with battery in mind. Those CPUs are made for desktop with heat sink, number of fans with being plug in all the time with battery life not factor in those case.

The Intel and AMD CPUs for laptop are light years slower than those CPUs.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,450
1,219
Why does Apple not bring out desktop CPU?

You can tell my looking at this https://technical.city/en/cpu/Apple-M1

Some thing needs to change at Apple. Like how can Apple compete in the desktop class when they bringing out mobile CPU as you can tell looking at the benchmark that desktop Core i3-12100F is way faster and the Core i9-14900KS is light years ahead of the Core i3-12100F

Apple really needs to bring out desktop CPU.
There are at least two problems here:

1) as mentioned by others here, that website doesn't for some reason have the Ultra as an option

2) one of the primary combined benchmarks is Cinebench R15 which is running under emulation - the other is Passmark (and on some it's just R15)

This website is not very good basically. If you want really good source of lots of benchmarks, including older ones like Passmark and R15, Notebookcheck is good. Because they'll also have lots of other benchmarks with a huge number of comparison points.

There's a case to be made for Apple's Desktop GPUs being a tad weaker than they should be, even for the Ultra, but the CPU? Nah. They're more than powerful enough. Apple's CPUs have huge multithreaded and single threaded performance and are more than good enough for both laptop and desktops.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
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The Ultra is not made for laptops.

The G3 and G4 ran in laptops and desktops, but those in desktops were not suitable for laptops.

But even the M1 Pro


And M1 Max


Yes both them not that much faster than M1
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
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The OP does have a point about the processors in Mac desktops. It just needs to be framed a bit more precisely. With AS, Apple has done a brilliant job optimizing performance vs. power for its Mac laptops. However the optimum performance vs. power point for a desktop is different from a laptop, for three reasons:

1) Desktops aren't constrained by the need to run on batteries.

2) Desktops are bigger and heavier, and thus are not as thermally constrained. This means not only that they can enable more power-hungry processors to run without significant throttling, but also that that they can do it quietly.

3) There's more expectation of high performance with high-end desktops than high-end laptops.

For all these reasons, the question becomes: Why did Apple restrict its desktops to the same max clock speeds for both the CPU and GPU as it did for its laptops, i.e., why are the clock speeds of Apple's desktop CPU's optimized for laptops instead of desktops?

Here are some possibilities.

1) Engineering reason: While the M series processors can operate at higher clock speeds, the power requirements increase too rapidly, giving too little return in exchange for the added power consumption.

2) Engineering + business reason: The M-series processors can't operate reliably at higher clocks speeds. Apple could have designed separate desktop-optimized processors that did run at higher clock speeds, but it was cost-prohibitive to do so, particularly since desktop sales are much smaller than laptop sales. I suspect this is what actually happened with M1-M3, so in that sense Apple really doesn't have a separate desktop processor design--their desktop processors are instead laptop processors expanded with more cores, display engines, memory controllers, etc.

3) Business reason: Apple didn't want the desktops to outshine the laptops, since the laptops are the main sellers.

These all are pure speculation on my part, but I don't think it's #3. Indeed, we may finally see higher clocks for desktops than laptops with M4.
 
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crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
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But even the M1 Pro


And M1 Max


Yes both them not that much faster than M1
Again for the Macs R15 is an emulated benchmark ...

oh-no-anyway.gif


The OP does have a point about desktops.

For GPUs, sure. For the CPU? Not really ... Apple is so far ahead on CPUs it actually isn't necessary.
It just needs to be framed correctly. With AS, Apple has done a brilliant job optimizing performance vs. power for its Mac laptops. However the optimum performance vs. power point for a desktop is different from a laptop, for three reasons:

1) Desktops aren't constrained by the need to run on batteries.

2) Desktops are bigger and heavier, and thus are not as thermally constrained.

3) There's more expectation of high performance with high-end desktops than high-end laptops.

For all these reasons, the question becomes: Why did Apple restrict its desktops to the same max clock speeds for both the CPU and GPU as it did for its laptops, i.e., why are the clock speeds of Apple's desktop CPU's optimized for laptops instead of desktops?

Here are some possibilities.

1) Engineering reason: While the M series processors can operate at higher clock speeds, the power requirements increase too rapidly, giving too little return in exchange for the added power consumption.
Yes and also not necessary for the CPU. Would it be nice? Sure. But that would extend their already impressive performance over even Intel's and AMD's comparable chips.
2) Engineering + business reason: The M-series processors can't operate reliably at higher clocks speeds. Apple could have designed separate desktop processors that did run at higher clock speeds, but it was cost-prohibitive to do so, particularly since desktop sales are much smaller than laptop sales.

3) Business reason: Apple didn't want the desktops to outshine the laptops, since the laptops are the main sellers.

These all are pure speculation on my part, but I don't think it's no. #3. Indeed, we may finally see higher clocks for desktops than laptops on M4.
Possibly, but that would probably be a desktop specific Ultra. Which I wouldn't mind one bit. But it is hardly a necessity (for the CPU). They are comparing the equivalent of i3s vs i9s on an emulated benchmark and ignoring that Ultras exist (Apple's i9 equivalent). So no, I wouldn't really agree that they have a valid point. The most they could legitimately argue with their line of evidence is that we didn't get an Ultra M3 and even then because that website is so poor one can't really use that a legitimate line of evidence. Modern benchmarks have the M3 Max CPU performing around the i7 desktop range (even an i9 for GB6 which depending on your benchmarking philosophy is more or less accurate depending on workload) which is exactly where it should be.


 
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Chuckeee

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Aug 18, 2023
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I believe it’s purely a marketing decision. The desktop market is small and is getting smaller. Apple has made the decision to emphasize the mobile market (iPhone, iPad, MacBook, watch, AVP) for the chip development. For Apple, the desktop market (iMac, mini, studio, pro, AppleTV) is primarily repackaging of mobile devices. Even the ultra chip is just a combination of multiple (2) laptop max chips.

Apple is basically decided the future market and business case is in the mobile market. That is where their development is concentrated. Desktops just get the hand me down from the mobile market and that’s “good enough” for the vast majority of the remaining shrinking market of desktop users.
 
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Bubble99

macrumors 65816
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Mar 15, 2015
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Possibly, but that would probably be a desktop specific Ultra. Which I wouldn't mind one bit. But it is hardly a necessity (for the CPU). They are comparing the equivalent of i3s vs i9s on an emulated benchmark and ignoring that Ultras exist (Apple's i9 equivalent). So no, I wouldn't really agree that they have a valid point. The most they could legitimately argue with their line of evidence is that we didn't get an Ultra M3 and even then because that website is so poor one can't really use that a legitimate line of evidence. Modern benchmarks have the M3 Max CPU performing around the i7 desktop range (even an i9 for GB6 which depending on your benchmarking philosophy is more or less accurate depending on workload) which is exactly where it should be.

That website does not show Ultra so we don’t know how it compares to the i3 or i5 that alone i9.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
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That website does not show Ultra so we don’t know how it compares to the i3 or i5 that alone i9.
Again because it is a bad website. You can find Ultras on other benchmarking websites. You can find other benchmarks than Cinebench R15 which again is running under emulation. Even for the PC side they seem to only report old benchmarks - although they have more of them than they do for the Mac. It's just not a good website for any of those processors be they x86 or AS.

An M3 Max scores about 1600 in CB R24 (desktop i7 score) and 2100 in GB6 (desktop i9 score).
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
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For the CPU? Not really ... Apple is so far ahead on CPUs it actually isn't necessary.
That's only true for multi-core. But my post was about SC performance. And as you know, most programs, including most scientific programs, are still SC. And for SC work, even with the M3, there's still a lot of waiting time with programs like Mathematica, Matlab, Adobe, etc. So faster would definitely provide additional benefit. Plus my post was not about how fast the M-series are relative to everyone else, it was about how fast they could be, in desktops, if the design had instead been more desktop-optimized.
 
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TechnoMonk

macrumors 68030
Oct 15, 2022
2,603
4,110
The OP does have a point about the processors in Mac desktops. It just needs to be framed a bit more precisely. With AS, Apple has done a brilliant job optimizing performance vs. power for its Mac laptops. However the optimum performance vs. power point for a desktop is different from a laptop, for three reasons:

1) Desktops aren't constrained by the need to run on batteries.

2) Desktops are bigger and heavier, and thus are not as thermally constrained. This means not only that they can enable more more power-hungry processors to run without significant throttling, but also that that they can do it quietly.

3) There's more expectation of high performance with high-end desktops than high-end laptops.

For all these reasons, the question becomes: Why did Apple restrict its desktops to the same max clock speeds for both the CPU and GPU as it did for its laptops, i.e., why are the clock speeds of Apple's desktop CPU's optimized for laptops instead of desktops?

Here are some possibilities.

1) Engineering reason: While the M series processors can operate at higher clock speeds, the power requirements increase too rapidly, giving too little return in exchange for the added power consumption.

2) Engineering + business reason: The M-series processors can't operate reliably at higher clocks speeds. Apple could have designed separate desktop-optimized processors that did run at higher clock speeds, but it was cost-prohibitive to do so, particularly since desktop sales are much smaller than laptop sales. I suspect this is what actually happened with M1-M3, so in that sense Apple really doesn't have a separate desktop processor design--their desktop processors are instead laptop processors expanded with more cores, display engines, memory controllers, etc.

3) Business reason: Apple didn't want the desktops to outshine the laptops, since the laptops are the main sellers.

These all are pure speculation on my part, but I don't think it's no. #3. Indeed, we may finally see higher clocks for desktops than laptops with M4.
It’s pretty simple if you look at Mx Ultra Studio and Mx Max studio. Apple uses the much heavier copper heat sink in the Mx Ultra, which makes it lot more heavier. Now regarding the business aspect of Macs, Apple MBP accounts for more than half the revenue. MBA isn’t too far, while the Mac Pro, Mac Studio are less than 5%. And most powerful Apple chip runs on a workstation, not on laptop. Apple changed the architecture from M3, not just double the layouts, M4 Ultra should give lot more information.
 
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Bubble99

macrumors 65816
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Mar 15, 2015
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I believe it’s purely a marketing decision. The desktop market is small and is getting smaller. Apple has made the decision to emphasize the mobile market for the chip development. For Apple, the desktop market is primarily repackaging of mobile devices. Even the ultra chip is just a combination of multiple (2) laptop max chips.

Apple is basically decided the future market and business case is in the mobile market. That is where their development is concentrated. Desktops just get the hand me down from the mobile market and that’s “good enough” for the vast majority of desktop users.

Yes but is it lot professionals that use video editing and music production value time over cost so would not https://technical.city/en/cpu/Core-i9-14900KS or https://technical.city/en/cpu/Ryzen-Threadripper-PRO-7995WX running MacOS not value there time. I mean these people spend 5,000 to 10,000 professionally on high end systems.

Not to say lot people working in Hollywood.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
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You're only thinking of multi-core. Most programs, including most scientific programs, are still single-core. And for SC work, even with the M3, there's still a lot of waiting time with programs like Mathemtica, Matlab, Adobe, etc. So faster would definitely provide additional benefit. Plus my post was not about how fast the M-series are relative to everyone else, it was about how fast they could be, in desktops, if the design had instead been more desktop-optimized.
Oh okay ... but for single core they have some of the fastest cores around (I mean the M4 ...) and then power costs and heat go up, so yeah your point 2 comes into play. It's not clear how much faster it can be upclocked without local hot spots causing issues. Maybe a touch faster, but worth it? Probably not. Maybe?
 

Chuckeee

macrumors 68040
Aug 18, 2023
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Southern California
Yes but is it lot professionals that use video editing and music production value time over cost so would not https://technical.city/en/cpu/Core-i9-14900KS or https://technical.city/en/cpu/Ryzen-Threadripper-PRO-7995WX running MacOS not value there time. I mean these people spend 5,000 to 10,000 professionally on high end systems.

Not to say lot people working in Hollywood.
And Apple believes they can capture a portion of that with their current offerings and the remainder is such a small market share, it is not worth their effort. While that market segment spends a lot on each machine, they buy so few machines, the resulting market share is small and is getting smaller. Apple want to invest where they believe the market is growing.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
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You're only thinking of multi-core. Most programs, including most scientific programs, are still single-core. And for SC work, even with the M3, there's still a lot of waiting time with programs like Mathemtica, Matlab, Adobe, etc. So faster would definitely provide additional benefit. Plus my post was not about how fast the M-series are relative to everyone else, it was about how fast they could be, in desktops, if the design had instead been more desktop-optimized.

Apple computers have always been more for creative and content providers like music, video, sound, art and graphics both semi professionals and professionals and people in the industry.

Other uses and things are more typical PCs running windows.
 
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TechnoMonk

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Oct 15, 2022
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Yes but is it lot professionals that use video editing and music production value time over cost so would not https://technical.city/en/cpu/Core-i9-14900KS or https://technical.city/en/cpu/Ryzen-Threadripper-PRO-7995WX running MacOS not value there time. I mean these people spend 5,000 to 10,000 professionally on high end systems.

Not to say lot people working in Hollywood.
That’s how Intel lost the mobile chip wars, now with AMD/Qualcomm coming up with more efficient processors, it will lose bigger pie of the laptop segment. Apple workstations and desktop market is less than 5% revenue for Mac business line. Once the laptop makers switch to efficient chips, Intel is a toast. They can have the niche desktop market.
 

theorist9

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May 28, 2015
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Oh okay ... but for single core they have some of the fastest cores around (I mean the M4 ...) and then power costs and heat go up, so yeah your point 2 comes into play. It's not clear how much faster it can be upclocked without local hot spots causing issues. Maybe a touch faster, but worth it? Probably not. Maybe?
Yeah, that's what it comes down to. There were reports they had tried testing the M2 at higher clocks in the MP, so I think Apple sees the value of enabling higher SC performance in the large desktops. Maybe we'll see that in the M4. Plus to provide the performance boost for these SC programs, they wouldn't need all clocks to go higher, just a one or two, which would limit the thermal and power demands.

Also (not referring to you here), I think folks have this picture that the AS Macs are plenty fast for office work, and any additional speed is gratuitous. But that's often not the case. For instance, suppose you're a lawyer or paralegal who wants to make a bunch of patents searchable, and they are image files. So you use Adobe Acrobat Pro's OCR to convert image to text. That's an SC operation that takes an M-series processor ≈0.5 sec/page.

That's 12 x 30 secs of waiting if you need to convert a dozen patents that are 60 pages each. Imagine how much nicer it would be if the SC speed on AS were 10x faster, so it took 3 sec/document instead of 30 sec/document. So it's not just that there's benefit to PC's being somewhat faster. There are even office operations that could clearly benefit from them being 10x faster-- or more! Thus it's not merely that we haven't gotten to the point of diminishing returns for computer speed when it comes office work. Rather, for some office work, we are still far, far, away from that point.
 
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Bubble99

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That’s how Intel lost the mobile chip wars, now with AMD/Qualcomm coming up with more efficient processors, it will lose bigger pie of the laptop segment. Apple workstations and desktop market is less than 5% revenue for Mac business line. Once the laptop makers switch to efficient chips, Intel is a toast. They can have the niche desktop market.

Just because desktop computers and laptops are dying among the general public does not mean businesses and industries don’t use it.

I don’t see factories, banks and government buildings using iPhones or iPads.

Intel should broken the company into to camps desktop and mobile the same with AMD.
 
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Bubble99

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Mar 15, 2015
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Plus to provide the performance boost for these SC programs, they wouldn't need all clocks to go higher, just a one or two, which would limit the thermal and power demands

If it CPU made for big thick tower desktop than thermals and power demands would not be problem like CPU made for laptop or thin desktop.
 

theorist9

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May 28, 2015
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Apple computers have always been more for creative and content providers like music, video, sound, art and graphics both semi professionals and professionals and people in the industry.

Other uses and things are more typical PCs running windows.
Nope. Apple computers are for whatever you want to use them for. It's ridiculous to say if you're doing scientific work you should be running Windows. Jobs himself used Mathematica benchmarks to introduce the PowerPC processor at WWDC.

Plus back when Macs had a much lower market share than what they have now, there were two groups that still favored Macs over PCs: Creatives and scientists. If you went to an American Physical Society convention even a a quarter century ago, you'd see a lot of Macs.
 
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