Why M1 Max is a better chip than M2 Pro?

[hajime]

We know that if we upgrade the M2 Pro Mini to have the same ram and ssd as the Studio + 10GbE upgrade the cost is similar. Some suggested that it is better to buy an old studio as it has a better chip. However benchmarks show that in most cases except for applications that can take advantage of lots of gpu, M2 Pro berforms better than the studio. Doubling the bandwidth does not seem to affect the performance much. So why the M1 Max is a better chip and the studio is a better but?

If buying a 16GB-512/1TB Mini M2 Pro with 10GbE now and Apple releases a similarly priced M2 Max Studio this year, I will not be very happy. If buying a Studio now and Apple releases M2 Max Studio this year, trade-in value will be poor as it will be 1+ year old.

 

[unrigestered]

Max = Pro in CPU + a better GPU.
So for normal stuff, unless you are doing heavy graphics calculations or AI, they will be identical. The Pro will run slightly cooler though with a bit of a better battery life

But if you’re asking such a question, the standard non-Pro M1/M2 are already incredible for most tasks. I have an M1 Air and loving it too!

 

[BeatCrazy]

M1 Max in a Studio will be cooler/quieter with about the same performance vs. M2 Pro in a 2023 mini.

Better GPU in M1 Max, as you mentioned.

 

[hajime]

M1 Max in a Studio will be cooler/quieter with about the same performance vs. M2 Pro in a 2023 mini.

Better GPU in M1 Max, as you mentioned.

But users said that M2 Pro in the smaller mini case is still dead silent so larger case running cooler may not be the selling point?

Apple is making it very difficult to make purchase decisions.

 

[hajime]

M1 Max in a Studio will be cooler/quieter with about the same performance vs. M2 Pro in a 2023 mini.

Better GPU in M1 Max, as you mentioned.

Also not many applications ‘can’ take advantage of more GPU cores.

 

[BeatCrazy]

But users said that M2 Pro in the smaller mini case is still dead silent so larger case running cooler may not be the selling point?

Apple is making it very difficult to make purchase decisions.

Did you watch this?

 

[Boil]

Max = Pro in CPU + a better GPU.
So for normal stuff, unless you are doing heavy graphics calculations or AI, they will be identical. The Pro will run slightly cooler though with a bit of a better battery life

Considering OP only mentions the M2 Pro Mac mini & the M1 Max Mac Studio, I would say battery life is not part of the equation at all...

 

[BeatCrazy]

Also not many applications ‘can’ take advantage of more GPU cores.

True. But the Studio supports up to 5 displays, the M2 Pro can do 3.

 

[hajime]

True. But the Studio supports up to 5 displays, the M2 Pro can do 3.

Good observation but I only need 2 or 3 external displays especially Mac often forgets about external screen seetings.

 

[hajime]

Did you watch this?

Yes, several times. I don't play games nor do benchmarks on the Mac. He likes to push the computers to extreme cases so might be under those cases, there are fan noise.

As far as I read, for general users not using the Mini for benchmarking, it is dead silent. I tried the base model myself and it was also dead silent. I returned it as it had audio issue.

 

[okkibs]

The Studio has a much faster 500GB SSD than the M2 Mini. I'd take the Studio over the Mini any day - the SSD isn't soldered either, so you can swap it out (only for same capacity, but at least the entire Mac isn't trash if the SSD dies) - I have a M1 MAX now and the performance is very much overkill. Unless you need the additional M2 performance, there isn't much of a point to get the Mini, it's a lower end device compared to the Studio that just happens to have been updated more recently.

trade-in value will be poor as it will be 1+ year old.

I don't buy Macs as an investment or with the intent of selling them a mere year later. The performance of these Macs is plenty for at least 3 years, for my M1 MAX more like 4-5, easily. Who cares that a newer Studio comes out sooner or later if your M1 MAX Studio lasts you many years anyways?

 

[Zaydax333]

But users said that M2 Pro in the smaller mini case is still dead silent so larger case running cooler may not be the selling point?

Apple is making it very difficult to make purchase decisions.

I think the problem was that the M2 Ultra chip wasn't ready to go in time. So they didn't update the Mac Studio at all. (It's a huge chip that's difficult to get good yields on probably...)

I'm sure they'll drop a M2 Ultra refresh soon and due to the price conflicts and inflation it's likely at a slightly higher price. (I think they'll bump it to $2499 and give it a 1TB SSD as well). They have some announcement coming in March seems like from all the leaks.

Only you know what your workload is, if you NEED the extra GPU cores then get the Mac Studio. If not, get the m2 pro Mini. Or, you could just wait till the M2 Ultra is announced and then make a decision.

 

[Pressure]

The Studio has a much faster 500GB SSD than the M2 Mini. I'd take the Studio over the Mini any day - the SSD isn't soldered either, so you can swap it out (only for same capacity, but at least the entire Mac isn't trash if the SSD dies) - I have a M1 MAX now and the performance is very much overkill. Unless you need the additional M2 performance, there isn't much of a point to get the Mini, it's a lower end device compared to the Studio that just happens to have been updated more recently.


I don't buy Macs as an investment or with the intent of selling them a mere year later. The performance of these Macs is plenty for at least 3 years, for my M1 MAX more like 4-5, easily. Who cares that a newer Studio comes out sooner or later if your M1 MAX Studio lasts you many years anyways?

I will upgrade to an M2 Max Mac Studio instantly for the better monitor support. That's the one thing that holds M1 Pro and M1 Max back as such.

 

[Juicy Box]

When comparing the two devices, people are forgetting the HDMI 2.1, and better WIFI on the MM M2 Pro, as well as the two extra USB-c ports and SD Card reader on the Studio. The memory bandwidth is also twice as fast on the Studio.

We know that if we upgrade the M2 Pro Mini to have the same ram and ssd as the Studio + 10GbE upgrade the cost is similar.

I know a lot of people have been including the 10GbE upgrade when comparing the two devices, but a lot of people won't need this now, or ever.

Personally, I would rather get a dock with a 10GbE port included rather than pay for Apple's upgrade prices.

I have seen some posts about bugs related to Apple's 10GbE ports, AirPlay bugs and issues when connecting to 1Gbps networks over CAT5e.

Might as well spend a little more, and get a dock with a bunch of other ports on it.

Max = Pro in CPU + a better GPU.

Are you comparing the M1 Max to M1 Pro? The OP is referring to the M2 Pro, which the single core performance is better than the M1 Max in the Studio. The multicore performance is better as well, at least for the 12c M2 Pro. The GPU is better on M1 Max in the base Studio, but not by much as the scaling improved with the M2 Pro.

The Pro will run slightly cooler though with a bit of a better battery life

M1 Max in a Studio will be cooler/quieter with about the same performance vs. M2 Pro in a 2023 mini.

But users said that M2 Pro in the smaller mini case is still dead silent so larger case running cooler may not be the selling point?

I do not have a Studio to compare, but the 12c/19c M2 Pro in the 2023 MM can run HOT with a full load on the GPU.

That said, I cannot hear the fans, and it only takes a few more % of fan speed to keep the GPU temps in check.

The fans on the M2 Pro MM are overkill, and do a really good job cooling at a low rpm.

I have been doing some testing with my new M2 Pro MM and comparing it to the M1 MM and well as some Intel iMacs. One of the test was the capability of the GPU, using WoW-retail. I turned every possible graphic setting to the max on the M2 Pro MM, and got some impressive frame rates, but also kept track of the temps, wattage, and fan speeds.

See the following charts showing the temps, fan speed, and wattage after 10 minutes of playtime:

The M2 Pro GPU runs hot! But, the OS keeps the fan speed at idle until it hits 96c, at which a very slight increase in fan speed controls the temps. You can see that in the red circles on the two graphs.

Once the temps on the GPU drops by 1c, the fan speed drops back to idle, and once the temps increase back up to 96c, the fans increase again, but just slightly.

The fans were silent to me, but I did have some ambient noise.

The point of the above is to show that even at a full GPU load, the fans do not need to ramp up to cool, less than 2000rpm was enough to drop the temps quickly.

I am planning on testing the GPU and CPU both at 100% and see how it affects the temps and fans on the M2 Pro MM.

 

[Juicy Box]

Apple releases a similarly priced M2 Max Studio this year, I will not be very happy.

There is no guarantee that there will be a M2 Max Studio this year, or even ever.

The way things are looking, the Studio may end up skipping the M2 chips, and moving to the M3, or maybe being discontinued.

If you need a Mac now, I would just get one now. Otherwise, you will always be waiting for the next best thing that might be out any day.

If you are perfectly comfortable with your current set up, then maybe it might be worth to wait to see what the Mac Pro and M3 chips to come out.

 

[hajime]

I have seen some posts about bugs related to Apple's 10GbE ports, AirPlay bugs and issues when connecting to 1Gbps networks over CAT5e.

Might as well spend a little more, and get a dock with a bunch of other ports on it.

I heard the opposite stories. That is a problem.

The M2 Pro GPU runs hot! But, the OS keeps the fan speed at idle until it hits 96c, at which a very slight increase in fan speed controls the temps. You can see that in the red circles on the two graphs.

Once the temps on the GPU drops by 1c, the fan speed drops back to idle, and once the temps increase back up to 96c, the fans increase again, but just slightly.

The fans were silent to me, but I did have some ambient noise.

The point of the above is to show that even at a full GPU load, the fans do not need to ramp up to cool, less than 2000rpm was enough to drop the temps quickly.

I am planning on testing the GPU and CPU both at 100% and see how it affects the temps and fans on the M2 Pro MM.

Please keep us posted of your findings.

I wonder if a the M2 Pro MacBook Pro 16" can handle the heat well. If I recall correctly, the OS does not allow the fans to kick in until near 100c is reached.

 

[hajime]

There is no guarantee that there will be a M2 Max Studio this year, or even ever.

The way things are looking, the Studio may end up skipping the M2 chips, and moving to the M3, or maybe being discontinued.

That is the problem. We users face too many models that might or might not show up. Given that Silicon Mac cannot be upgraded after purchase, it is hard to make the decision. In Steve's Era, I did not need to think much before purchasing.

If you need a Mac now, I would just get one now. Otherwise, you will always be waiting for the next best thing that might be out any day.

If you are perfectly comfortable with your current set up, then maybe it might be worth to wait to see what the Mac Pro and M3 chips to come out.

I retired my 2010 MacBook Pro as it does not even have Thunderbolt. I just use a PC as the main machine. I want to use a Mac as a main machine so I need to buy something sometime in the next few weeks. Nobody knows if Mac Pro will show up in the summer.

 

[Juicy Box]

I have seen some posts about bugs related to Apple's 10GbE ports, AirPlay bugs and issues when connecting to 1Gbps networks over CAT5e.

I heard the opposite stories. That is a problem.

Some of the Apple 10GbE port issues I have seen on the forum are where the link speed of a Mac's 10GbE port being dropped to 100Mbps when using CAT5e cable to connect to a Gigabit network.

Apple support seems to be aware of the issues, but only offers the solution of telling the user to upgrade to CAT6a or higher cable. To be fair, it does seem to be a successful work around, but doesn't fix the issue.

IIRC, the AirPlay issue is on all 10GbE ports made by the same company that makes Apple's 10GbE ports. Not 100% sure about that last part, as I only see a few complaints about the AirPlay issue.

A while back, I was considering getting the 10GbE port in my next Mac, but between the issues and the $100, I figured I will just buy a dock that has 10GbE when I upgrade my network.

 

[hajime]

Isn't it well known that for 10GbE, we are supposed to use CAT6 cable and if longer distance CAT6a cable? So using cables below CAT6 is users' fault I suppose.

Which 10GbE dock work well? All I heard is that if one wants 10GbE, forget about 3rd party options and go for Apple's 10GbE upgrade if there is such an option.

 

[Juicy Box]

Isn't it well known that for 10GbE, we are supposed to use CAT6 cable and if longer distance CAT6a cable? So using cables below CAT6 is users' fault I suppose.

Yes, this is correct.

But, this wasn’t on 10Gb networks, the issue is on 1Gbps networks.

CAT5e is rated for for 1Gbps, so no reason for the link speed dropping to 100Mbps when using the 10GbE port over CAT5e.

Definitely not the users fault for it not working, it is something with MacOS, I think. Apple Support doesn’t have a fix, so they are saying that people are using unsupported Ethernet cable, saying that the user needs to replace it with higher graded cable, but that just isn’t true.

Actually, while not technically supported, CAT5e can handle 10Gbps in short runs.

 

[hajime]

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[Larason2]

As mentioned, the mac minis can run super hot at full throttle. I have an M1 Max Studio, and it runs super cool, even at max. The processor is fast, but what are really great are all the cores in the GPU. Gaming, photo editing, movie making, stable diffusion are super fast on it, and I only have the 24 core GPU. If those things don't matter, then get it because it doesn't run so hot! If we get an M2 max studio, it will still be overkill for most tasks. The M1 max is already pretty darn fast.

 

[Juicy Box]

As mentioned, the mac minis can run super hot at full throttle. I have an M1 Max Studio, and it runs super cool, even at max. The processor is fast, but what are really great are all the cores in the GPU. Gaming, photo editing, movie making, stable diffusion are super fast on it, and I only have the 24 core GPU. If those things don't matter, then get it because it doesn't run so hot! If we get an M2 max studio, it will still be overkill for most tasks. The M1 max is already pretty darn fast.

I think if there is a M2 Studio, the temps will end up increasing. It is the higher clock speeds on the CPU and GPU that is making the M2 Pro MM get so hot so quickly.

The cooling system was upgraded in the M2 Pro, and it isn't bad. As I pointed out earlier, just a tiny % of increase in fan speed started dropping the temps during the full load on the GPU.

Not sure why Apple wants to keep the M2 Pro MM so hot, maybe for future marketing? "The M3 Pro MM is capable of up to 40% increased CPU performance, with 20% lower temperatures." Or something silly like that.

I haven't used any fan speed controlling SW on my AS Macs yet, but I am considering doing it on the M2 Pro MM. I think if I kept the bottom threshold (idle) at 2000 rpms, I wouldn't ever see temps above 90c. I still wouldn't hear the fan, and everything would be kept a lot cooler.

 

[hajime]

How come even the M1 Studio has double the memory bandwidth as the M2 Pro, it only does better in some programs that 'can' take advantage of many GPU cores. So it means the M2 Pro is better than M1 Max?

 

[Juicy Box]

I haven't used any fan speed controlling SW on my AS Macs yet, but I am considering doing it on the M2 Pro MM. I think if I kept the bottom threshold (idle) at 2000 rpms, I wouldn't ever see temps above 90c. I still wouldn't hear the fan, and everything would be kept a lot cooler.

I remembered that iStat Menus has fan speed customizations built-in, so I decided to give it a try.

A ran the same test that I posted about earlier. Playing the Dragon Flight area of WoW for 10 minutes with every single graphic setting at the max. But this time, I kept the idle speed of the fans at 2000 rpm, versus 1700 rpm.

IT WORKED!

After ten minutes, the GPU temps were below 90C. The fans didn't move off of idle, and at 2000 rpms, the M2 Pro MM was significantly cooler than it was with the fan speed idling at 1700.

I decided to keep it going, to see when the temps would get too hot and the fan speed would raise. Exactly 20 minutes from the start of the test, the temps were at 96C and the fan speed increased, peaking at 2218 rpm, dropping the temps.

I ended the test there. So, @2000 rpm, the fans were not able to keep the temps below 90C forever, but it kept them cool a lot longer than the first test.

Maybe I will run it again tomorrow, but this time, raise the fan idle speed just high enough that I cannot hear the fans, and see how long I can keep the temps below 90C.

Here are the drop down charts and graphs from the test I just ran:

Temps, Fan Speed, and wattage after about 22 minute test:

GPU Temps:


Fan Speed: