Windows Dev Kit 2023

[radow]

Previously known as Project Volterra.

Available today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 aka Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

 

[radow]

This is an interesting mini computer, and despite being targeted to developers and business, anyone can purchase it.

It’s basically the board of Surface Pro 9 ARM version put into a 8’’ x 6’’ little box[1], but with a whopping 32GB of RAM, decent ports selection, and at $599 it’s actually pretty good deal.

- The Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 SoC is definitely nowhere near M1 performance, but it’s not too bad either.
- It supports up to 3 displays.
- With native ARM64 Visual Studio coming soon, the toolchain situation of Windows on ARM is getting better.

Some concerns:

- Can it run Linux distros? Linux Kernel 5.20 added support for 8cx gen 3 SoCs, But considering that the dev kit has the custom Microsoft Pluton security chip built in, running other OSes might be a problem. With the ability to run Linux distros, it can be used as a little home server when it reaches end of life.
- Windows on ARM situation. Still needs to deal with lots of x86-64 codes in a typical Windows workflow, and how that affects performance remains to be seen.

While for most users a base model Mac mini M1 would be the better choice, I can see the appeal here.

[1]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585267841485475840

 

[maflynn]

There's a lot I like of this design, and hopefully we'll see some nice ARM based apps.

 

[robotica]

If it had thunderbolt I would buy it

 

[maflynn]

If it had thunderbolt I would buy it

Thunderbolt is an Intel property, and while its possible they could license it, there's really little reason - especially given the price point that these are selling. Remember this product isn't marketed towards the consumer, its for developers

 

[robotica]

Yeah it was a bit of a stretch, USB 4 would have done since that has open source thunderbolt 3.
I just have lots of thunderbold docks etc these days so anything I buy has to have some kind of compatability with it.

 

[MacWorld78]

Can you run any windows application on this device?

 

[maflynn]

Can you run any windows application on this device?

Any application that will run within ARM windows.

 

[mi7chy]

- Can it run Linux distros?

Lenovo has an active PoC project with Linaro to get Debian Linux working on their 8cx gen 3 Thinkpad X13s laptop so once it's fully working hopefully others can fork it to other 8cx gen 3 devices.

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-...ate-X13s-ARM-processor-with-linux/m-p/5175315

Nice to tinker with as long as your use cases fit within the restrictions of Windows on ARM but you're better off with something like this 6900HS mini PC or upcoming 7000G APU that works with mainstream x64 software without restrictions.

Or, this if you're near a Micro Center.

 

[NT1440]

Thunderbolt is an Intel property, and while its possible they could license it, there's really little reason - especially given the price point that these are selling. Remember this product isn't marketed towards the consumer, its for developers

Thunderbolt 3 was the beginning of royalty free licensing from Intel if I remember right.

 

[radow]

Just learned that the Mini DisplayPort on the dev kit is actually *embedded DisplayPort(eDP) to Mini DisplayPort*, which means some monitors won’t work with it. And USB Type-C video output only works after the machine powered on.

 

[sorgo †]

Looks like Microsoft’s version of an M1 Mac mini. Cool!

 

[EastHillWill]

Looks like Microsoft’s version of an M1 Mac mini. Cool!

It’s what would happen if an Intel NUC and a Mac mini had a baby.

The WOA era has gotten off to a sluggish start, but I have a Pro X I really like and look forward to seeing where this line goes.

 

[maflynn]

The WOA era has gotten off to a sluggish start

Sluggish? That doesn't even begin to describe how poorly MSFT has mishandled arm based windows.

Remember Windows RT - that was released in 2012. ITs been 10 years of MSFT failing to produce Windows on ARM

 

[MacWorld78]

I'm unable to find any source from the youtube regarding "Performance Testing" for the Windows Dev Kit 2023, I'm not interesting with unboxing experience

 

[DrCC]

Sluggish? That doesn't even begin to describe how poorly MSFT has mishandled arm based windows.

Remember Windows RT - that was released in 2012. ITs been 10 years of MSFT failing to produce Windows on ARM

As of right now Windows 11 ARM runs any app I throw at it on my M1 (except games and graphics stuff). And even in a Parallels VM, it is probably faster than the Snapdragon chip. Maybe the last 10 years were poor, but as of right now, Windows 11 ARM works well enough.

 

[maflynn]

As of right now Windows 11 ARM runs any app I throw at it on my M1

My results have been the polar opposite, sadly. Just trying to get Cisco anyconnect to install was anything but successful. I tried old games, new games, as well and those didn't run, which isn't surprising, but still.

Other apps I tried other then MS office didn't seem to run, particularly apps I use for work. I stopped keeping track of what does and doesn't and resigned myself to the fact that its not ready for prime time

 

[DrCC]

Other apps I tried other then MS office didn't seem to run, particularly apps I use for work. I stopped keeping track of what does and doesn't and resigned myself to the fact that its not ready for prime time

That is weird, MS Office is also ARM native and doesn't need any emulation. Office should just work, something is not right on your system. I actually have Office 365 installed in the Windows VM for when I have to do heavy Word typing because I like the Word interface better in Windows than Mac.

Also, from my usage, I found Windows 11 emulation quite good. I had an app that I tried to install in X86-64 emulation mode and it failed initially, then it asked me if I want to install it in 32 bit mode and it worked. Apple Silicon can't do 32 bits natively, but it can do it in Windows 11 with emulation.

 

[maflynn]

That is weird, MS Office is also ARM native and doesn't need any emulation

I think I worded my response oddly. MS Office works, apps other then then that were giving me headaches - sorry for the confusion

 

[bobcomer]

I think I worded my response oddly. MS Office works, apps other then then that were giving me headaches - sorry for the confusion

Well, just to add another perspective, most apps (x86, x64) do run, but not all, and not always with good performance. I have a bigger problem with the licensing and support that Microsoft has saddled it with.

I have WoA running on my Studio Max, but I really don't use it that much. I RDP into a real Windows PC instead, or run it on my Intel Mac.

I have absolutely no desire to buy this development kit, nor any desire to buy an Arm based Windows PC. There's just nothing there I desire or need.

 

[sgtaylor5]

Ars Technica feature story review

 

[maflynn]

This YT came up for me, I wasn't really investigating the dev kit, but I watched it and was interesting as the person putted the Windows Dev Kit against a Mac Mini, with both running VS for ARM