MP 1,1-5,1 Windows on an SSD partition without BootROM issues

[macstatic]

I'd like to install Windows 10 on an SSD but remember being warned against installing it from a USB flash drive as this can/will corrupt a cMP's BootROM. I've got an installation-DVD for this, so that won't be a problem, but will installing Windows 10 on an SSD (as opposed to a spinning hard drive) cause the same kind of problem?

Actually I've already installed Windows 10 (from the installation-DVD) on to a HDD in my cMP (mid-2010) which works fine, but as I have a spare 128 GB SSD laying around unused (which I've now mounted on a cMP drive sled) I thought I'd create a multi-OS startup drive containing MacOS 7.6 (Snow Leopard), MacOS 10.9 (Mavericks) and Windows 10 each on their own partition. That would be much more handy than having separate drives for each "alternative OS" I need to use now and then.

 

[tsialex]

I'd like to install Windows 10 on an SSD but remember being warned against installing it from a USB flash drive as this can/will corrupt a cMP's BootROM. I've got an installation-DVD for this, so that won't be a problem, but will installing Windows 10 on an SSD (as opposed to a spinning hard drive) cause the same kind of problem?

The issue is UEFI vs BootCamp/CSM/BIOS. When Windows is UEFI installed (from a USB installer) Windows UEFI SecureBoot will sign the Mac Pro BootROM and this will make havoc overtime.

BootCamp can only be installed to SATA devices (HDD or SSD, doesn't matter). No NVMe.

Actually I've already installed Windows 10 (from the installation-DVD) on to a HDD in my cMP (mid-2010) which works fine, but as I have a spare 128 GB SSD laying around unused (which I've now mounted on a cMP drive sled) I thought I'd create a multi-OS startup drive containing MacOS 7.6 (Snow Leopard), MacOS 10.9 (Mavericks) and Windows 10 each on their own partition. That would be much more handy than having separate drives for each "alternative OS" I need to use now and then.

Single drive for multiple OS is a constant headache. I'd seriously re-think this.

Use a dedicated SATA SSD for Windows.

 

[macstatic]

The issue is UEFI vs BootCamp/CSM/BIOS. When Windows is UEFI installed (from a USB installer) Windows UEFI SecureBoot will sign the Mac Pro BootROM and this will make havoc overtime.

BootCamp can only be installed to SATA devices (HDD or SSD, doesn't matter). No NVMe.

Thanks for clearing this up.
So, since all my drives are SATA and I'll install Windows from a DVD I should be OK.

Single drive for multiple OS is a constant headache. I'd seriously re-think this.

Use a dedicated SATA SSD for Windows.

What kind of problems? Is the problem with multiple OSes on the same drive (i.e. 2 partitions with MacOS 10.6 and 10.9) or is it only problematic when you also install Windows on the same drive?

Fortunately I've already successfully installed Windows 10 on a dedicated HDD, and this works fine, but with limited free drive spaces left inside my cMP I thought I'd combine several OSes on a same drive.

 

[tsialex]

Old OS X releases work relatively fine, pre 10.13.

Windows frequently makes boot coups and mess the disk after Windows Updates, so use a dedicated disk.

You can't mix macOS releases that require APFS in the same disk, since each macOS release use different APFS versions, the disk will corrupt overtime and macOS will nag you about the different APFS versions all the time.

 

[macstatic]

Ah, I see and can live with that.
I'll just use the SSD for the older OSes I need then, and use dedicated drives for the rest as you suggested.

By the way, where do you find this kind of information, which doesn't appear to be widely documented? If it hadn't been for this forum I would never have known.

 

[tsialex]

By the way, where do you find this kind of information, which doesn't appear to be widely documented?

Mac Pro issues are usually only related to Mac Pros, you won't find real life solutions looking in other places, the documentation is basically stored here.

Another thing, Mac Pro hardware and usage/workflows are very different from other Macs, things that work perfectly fine with other Macs don't work with Mac Pros or when work, fail when the Mac Pro is used hard in production.

If it hadn't been for this forum I would never have known.

Some are common sense/logical after you reflect about the issue - like the different APFS versions for different macOS releases - but most is just endless suffering with problems and then testing different combinations until things start to work and the problems go away.

 

[John Fu]

quick question, how about if I make a Windows drive under PC, then I move over to cMP, the cMP USE OPENCORE, Does this work?

Thank you

 

[tsialex]

quick question, how about if I make a Windows drive under PC, then I move over to cMP, the cMP USE OPENCORE, Does this work?

Thank you

Sometimes work.

Be aware that if you boot UEFI installed Windows without OpenCore ProtectSecureBoot, Windows UEFI Secureboot signing will trash your BootROM the moment you boot it, it's not just when installing, but anytime you boot.

 

[Borowski]

quick question, how about if I make a Windows drive under PC, then I move over to cMP, the cMP USE OPENCORE, Does this work?

Thank you

Works, if you get no BSOD and can delete all unneeded and install the correct drivers.

Pay attention, if Windows is installed on a GPT-formatted drive: Don't start Windows without OC, especially if automatic restart is requested after updates.
It will harm the Mac Pros bootrom over time, always have a bootrom-copy saved and check it from time to time or reflash a cleaned rom.

 

[John Fu]

Works, if you get no BSOD and can delete all unneeded and install the correct drivers.

Pay attention, if Windows is installed on a GPT-formatted drive: Don't start Windows without OC, especially if automatic restart is requested after updates.
It will harm the Mac Pros bootrom over time, always have a bootrom-copy saved and check it from time to time or reflash a cleaned rom.

Thanks, I will pay attention, if I just put it into the cMP then I use Parallels to open it since I am not used to using a Mac machine to boot from Windows SSD, I think it should not hurt the boot ROM ?

 

[Borowski]

I guess not, it is a VM, so hardware is/can be virtualized. If Parallel works also with GPT-based drives, might work.

 

[macstatic]

I've run into a problem!
Having prepared the SSD for installation I booted my Mac Pro from the original installation DVD (10.6.4 Snow Leopard) that came with the same machine, but despite waiting very long it never arrives at the Finder and/or installation process.

I suspect it might be because of my GPU card (a Sapphire Vapor-X HD-7950 (3GB) which I reflashed in order to get a Mac boot-screen), which replaced the original ATI Radeon HD-5870. But this post tells me a reflashed HD-7950 will work fine with MacOS 10.6.8 as well, just not accelerated (not sure what that means, but I assume not taking full advantage of the card).
Is this incorrect after all?

 

[tsialex]

I've run into a problem!
Having prepared the SSD for installation I booted my Mac Pro from the original installation DVD (10.6.4 Snow Leopard) that came with the same machine, but despite waiting very long it never arrives at the Finder and/or installation process.

I suspect it might be because of my GPU card (a Sapphire Vapor-X HD-7950 (3GB) which I reflashed in order to get a Mac boot-screen), which replaced the original ATI Radeon HD-5870. But this post tells me a reflashed HD-7950 will work fine with MacOS 10.6.8 as well, just not accelerated (not sure what that means, but I assume not taking full advantage of the card).
Is this incorrect after all?

Snow Leopard does not have drivers for a HD 7950 Mac Edition card, and only the Mac EFI fail safe works - completely un-accelerated and only one or two outputs work.

If you did anything wrong while flashing the GPU or if the output port you are using is one that does not work with the Mac EFI, you won't have a display working.

 

[macstatic]

My HD-7950 has 4 physical outputs, but after reflashing I lost one of them:

• DP
• HDMI
• DVI-I
• DVI-D (no more video output)

I have a cable attached from the DVI-H connector to my display.

 

[tsialex]

My HD-7950 has 4 physical outputs, but after reflashing I lost one of them:

• DP
• HDMI
• DVI-H
• DVI-D (no more video output)

I have a cable attached from the DVI-H connector to my display.

You are trying to use a macOS release that does not have drivers for the GPU and then depends on the Mac EFI to provide a working display. With a real Sapphire HD 7950 this is perfectly doable, but with a third party PC GPU flashed, it's a gamble.

I'd test each of the GPU outputs.

 

[macstatic]

Good idea.
And if that doesn't work I assume a virtual environment (unless I'm willing to exchange GPU cards every time I need to use it) is the only way to go?

Is there anywhere I can find OS compatibility lists for the various GPUs on a cMP? I need to find an older OS which can run my older software but at the same time work with my GPU. Hopefully 10.9 Mavericks will work with it.

 

[Borowski]

I explained it few month ago.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to use the Vapor-X with all ports under ANY version of macOS (thanks to Apple, they didn't ever develope a matching framebuffer personality) when flashed with modded rom made with netkas-script!

Again, possible solutions:
- nothing, forget the one non-working port.
- framebuffer-patching in OSX/macOS: Same often done for hackintoshes, need of modifying system files and repeating after updates. In my opinion the worst choice.
- injecting a wrong or no framebuffer personality will activate the generic frambuffer "RadeonFramebuffer", which will work fine and activate all ports.
- for bootscreen support: Can be done with customized EFI or GOPEnabler, except Mac Pro 1.1 to 3.1, they're incompatible with GOPEnabler.

 

[macstatic]

Again, possible solutions:
- nothing, forget the one non-working port.

Yes, for normal everyday use, this appears to work fine for me. I have a single display attached and that's with a DVI cable attached to the 7950's DVI-I port.
I also have a second, much smaller display which I don't normally use, but have attached via a HDMI to DVI cable. Unfortunately with booting from the MacOS 10.6 Snow Leopard installer, neither display showed an installation window and/or Finder screen (the second, smaller screen stayed black while the main screen just continued to show the Apple logo/spinning throbber boot-screen), so I don't know if this means I just have to give up using MacOS 10.6 with this particular GPU installed or if one of the screens might work with a different GPU output port, or if it's just a matter of getting the right cable.

On the other hand, I just tried installing MacOS 10.11 El Capitan on the empty SSD and it worked! This time the smaller screen displayed the installer window while my main display stayed black (but apparently it was with a signal as I could move the mouse-pointer over to that window!). Once installed both screens worked, so I then removed the 2nd display (the smaller screen) and can now use the computer as usual with one screen attached to the DVI-H output.
So now I can use some of my older software (which no longer works within 10.14 Mojave).
An older OS might have been better (i.e. 10.9 Mavericks or 10.10 Yosemite) but having not found any OS compatibility info for the 7950 GPU I took my chances with the most recent OS I knew that some of my old software would still work with.

- framebuffer-patching in OSX/macOS: Same often done for hackintoshes, need of modifying system files and repeating after updates. In my opinion the worst choice.

Also sounds complicated, unless there are ready to use patchers that anyone can use.
As I'm on 10.14.6 Mojave (which is the latest OS which officially, without any hacking/patching that can run on my mid-2010 cMP as far as I know) I don't see myself running any further updates, so that won't be a problem, and if there's such a patch for MacOS 10.6 which will allow me to use my 7950 GPU with it, then it's worth applying (even if I might have to temporary remove the 7950 and put in my old GPU while installing).

- injecting a wrong or no framebuffer personality will activate the generic frambuffer "RadeonFramebuffer", which will work fine and activate all ports.

Is this something that can be done with a patcher app, or does it involve a hot of complicated hacking/programming and deep knowledge etc?

- for bootscreen support: Can be done with customized EFI or GOPEnabler, except Mac Pro 1.1 to 3.1, they're incompatible with GOPEnabler.

If I'm not mistaken, this is what I've already done by reflashing my 7950. Or are you talking about something else?

 

[Borowski]

As @tsialex mentioned (do you read any postings?), Snow Leopard has no drivers for all HD7xxx-videocards, minimum OSX is 10.8.3 (Mountain Lion).
It might work with older versions, but with no graphic acceleration and to my experience only one output is working, no hot-plugging capability and no multi display arrangement possible.
To my knowledge nobody modified the drivers to work with HD7xxx and Snow Leopard. Framebuffer-patching is a different field.

Is this something that can be done with a patcher app, or does it involve a hot of complicated hacking/programming and deep knowledge etc?

If you attach your videocard-bios, i'll have a try. Reflashing of the card is necessary.
In netkas-forum someone posted a similar rom, but unfortunately it is down since a few years.

If I'm not mistaken, this is what I've already done by reflashing my 7950. Or are you talking about something else?

No, there exist two ways for bootscreen support with this GPU series:
- A modified EFI from the Mac-7950 is combined with the vbios, thats what the netkas script does
- GOPEnabler is very new and works with all/many videocards, but lacks framebuffer personality (not mandatory anymore) and don't work with older Mac Pros 1.1 to 3.1.

 

[macstatic]

As @tsialex mentioned (do you read any postings?),

Yes I do.
Without having a good understanding of how all this works it's sometimes difficult to remember every technical detail said earlier and how these relate to each other, so I might be asking what seems to be the same question again, or I've worded myself wrongly (or we're misunderstanding each other).

Snow Leopard has no drivers for all HD7xxx-videocards, minimum OSX is 10.8.3 (Mountain Lion).
It might work with older versions, but with no graphic acceleration and to my experience only one output is working, no hot-plugging capability and no multi display arrangement possible.
To my knowledge nobody modified the drivers to work with HD7xxx and Snow Leopard. Framebuffer-patching is a different field.

Normal display support back to MacOS 10.8.3 is great! Actually it seems the older software I occasionaly need to use works with MacOS 10.11, so I should be fine for now. But there has been software which I've used under MacOS 10.6 which I might need to use again.
From what you're saying the limitations of the GPU card you're stated indicates that this is more of an "emergency solution" and I'm assuming I'm probably better off (perhaps even performance-wise) installing it within a virtual environment such as Oracle VirtualBox.

If you attach your videocard-bios, i'll have a try. Reflashing of the card is necessary.
In netkas-forum someone posted a similar rom, but unfortunately it is down since a few years.

Thank you!
So this modifies the GPU card's BIOS to "fool" MacOS into thinking another card is used, meaning it might make it possible to boot into an older MacOS (i.e. 10.6 Snow Leopard) with normal graphic acceleration and multiple outputs (similar to how it works under my current MacOS 10.14)?

Are there any disadvantages to using such a modified GPU BIOS? After having spent so much time already in order to understand how to reflash my GPU BIOS for Mac bootscreen support I'm not sure if I want to mess around with this again if I can get problems with my normal everyday use.
In that case it might be better to mess around with a virtual machine setup for MacOS 10.6 rather than break what already works, but I'm open for suggestions.

 

[Borowski]

No, the card will be detected as before. No different card model will be spoofed.

Only the framebuffer personality is set to a generic type, which will solve the problem with unusable ports under macOS. This is a weird macOS-only quirk, for Windows and Linux not necessary and won't touch the function under those OS.

 

[macstatic]

Is my understanding correct that modifying the GPU's BIOS this way will:

• keep the Mac EFI boot-screen
• make all video outputs work again
• make it compatible with older OSes such as MacOS 10.6 Snow Leopard

 

[tsialex]

Is my understanding correct that modifying the GPU's BIOS this way will:

• keep the Mac EFI boot-screen
• make all video outputs work again

These two I'll let Borowski answer since I don't know exactly what he modified.

• make it compatible with older OSes such as MacOS 10.6 Snow Leopard

This was explained multiple times already and you seem to not understand the immutable fact - the first macOS release that supports any HD 7xxx GPUs is 10.8.3. Anything and everything earlier than 10.8.3 will be running the GPU in a driverless state, via the MacEFI fail-safe the display will work (if the display connected is pretty much standard), but its a barebones display support, with several resolution limitations and completely un-accelerated.

 

[macstatic]

I've misunderstood as I talked about not getting to install MacOS 10.6 with this GPU card and Borowski appeared to present a solution.
So the only thing this will do is get my DVI-D output working again, but not affect anything else?

 

[Borowski]

Correct.
I made a similar "solution" few weeks ago here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-5-1-radeon-hd-7970-ports-not-working.2414442/

It is not GOP, but a modified EFI from Sapphire Mac Edition HD7950.