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rondocap

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 18, 2011
542
341
Gents, we live to fight another day - not even a tease of the Apple Silicon Mac Pro at WWDC 2022. We're still the latest and greatest Mac Pro!

Very interesting they didn't mention it - would make sense as its the "top" dog especially concerning developers if you would push the hardware to the max.

Maybe the whole GPU thing isn't ready yet for reveal - as a full decked out 7.1 Mac Pro still trounces the fastest Mac Studio with GPU heavy tasks like R3D Raw, 3D work, etc.

Anyway, curious to see what they develop - what do you guys think is going on?
 

richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
2,432
2,186
Also no mention of hardware raytracing in M2. I think this really just killed Apple within our studio.

the MacBook Air is nice though as a consumer laptop at home ;)
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
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Gents, we live to fight another day - not even a tease of the Apple Silicon Mac Pro at WWDC 2022. We're still the latest and greatest Mac Pro!

Who promised a tease at WWDC? It was not Apple. They just said 'later" that was no where near a promise of "June". It actually will be later in 2022. ( won't be surprising if doesn't not ship in large numbers until 2023. If long ago they targeted Nov-Dec 2022 and with some hiccups that slide out a Quarter , then it would easily hit 2023 primarily because it was 'barely' in 2022 in the first place. )




Very interesting they didn't mention it - would make sense as its the "top" dog especially concerning developers if you would push the hardware to the max.

Can't do serious development on a MBP 13" with 24GB of RAM ? For a very wide variety of apps you can. WWDC isn't about talking to a minimal subset of developers. It mainly the broadest set. The Mac Pro would be nice , but M2 is a new path ( new line up is ProRes capable top to bottom ).




Maybe the whole GPU thing isn't ready yet for reveal - as a full decked out 7.1 Mac Pro still trounces the fastest Mac Studio with GPU heavy tasks like R3D Raw, 3D work, etc.

They are introducing Metal 3 . Not all the details are out, but the notion that they are building a standalone GPU doesn't have much support from what they have done so far.


Anyway, curious to see what they develop - what do you guys think is going on?

The Mac Pro was schedule late in 2022. There have been some hiccups and it slid outside the window that a "sneak peak" met parameters. If the device slides then they don't demo. ( some AR/VR demo articles along some lines. )

I suspect they are waiting for a die shrink. The M2 is bigger than the M1. Doubtful Apple wants to expand some die size bloat up the whole M-series product line. If the Mac Pro is waiting on TSMC N3 (or N4P ) then it is 2023 product.
 
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deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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Also no mention of hardware raytracing in M2. I think this really just killed Apple within our studio.

They are introducting Metal 3. Metal 3 has "optimized ray tracing". Apple has some compute elements in their GPU coupled to larish local cache. They probably not have hyper motivated to push hardware elements yet if there is performance still being left on the floor with the curernt hardware.

Apple added upscaled rendering. Again "working smarter" not harder.


It is unlikely that Apple wants to go toe-to-toe with Nvidia on feature check list for GPUs. Just not going to follow the same path at the similar pace.

P.S. The M2 doesn't bring any transistor density either. (on at this point 'older' N5P process. Not bleeding edge ) . It is already bigger than the M1 without adding even more larger GPU 'cores'. There was likely not transistor budget to add that.
 

telequest

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2010
185
43
NJ
I was disappointed that no news on a new M1 or M2 MacPro as well. I guess I'll have to settle on the Mac Studio...
With video editing and other Adobe CC software being my primary use, it'll be Mac Studio for me ... with the M1 Max delivering plenty of power for now and probably the next few years. If by then my need for power increases, I'll probably get whatever the next generation of Mac Studio exists at that point. Hoping, of course, that the Studio gets regular updates (fingers crossed). Seems that my days of being a Mac Pro user are coming to an end ... my venerable 5,1 (upgraded many times since 2010) has earned its retirement.
With M1 Max Mac Studio starting at $2K and M1 Ultra version starting at $4K, I'd bet that the upcoming AS Mac Pro will likely be starting out the $8K range (up from the $6K current base), so likely not in my budget anyway.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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With video editing and other Adobe CC software being my primary use, it'll be Mac Studio for me ... with the M1 Max delivering plenty of power for now and probably the next few years. If by then my need for power increases, I'll probably get whatever the next generation of Mac Studio exists at that point. Hoping, of course, that the Studio gets regular updates (fingers crossed).

The Mac Studio is petty tightly coupled to the MBP 14"/16" SoCs. Just better thermals in Studio for the Max.
Remains to be seen if "Ultra" becomes more coupled to the Mac Pro bigger version SoC or still stays "two laptop Max's". (coupled to laptops would lead to bigger economies of scale, but the Mac Pro needs to leverage economies of scale from another Mac product. If Apple permanently tosses aside a big 'Pro' iMac there is nothing else to couple to. ) It is a different logic board and cooler (for now) so the Max board could move forward even if the Ultra board didn't.

For the Max level probably safely attached to the laptops. Upscale may go slower.


With M1 Max Mac Studio starting at $2K and M1 Ultra version starting at $4K, I'd bet that the upcoming AS Mac Pro will likely be starting out the $8K range (up from the $6K current base), so likely not in my budget anyway.

if it is a "half sized" Mac Pro and Apple chops the power supply total draw , board size , and slots all in half, then probably not $8K. Toss out the MPX video feed back complexity and can drop some more costs (i.e., toss 3rd party GPU Apple card. ) Decent chance there is a refactored Ultra-like package for the base model. Take a big swipe at the bill of materials costs and use a "$3K"-ish Ultra and could land in the $5-6K range (that "Ultra-like" includes CPU+GPU+basline RAM costs so have coverd a decent amount of major costs). That would be pretty close to what they have now. I don't think Apple is going to intially look to make the entry price much cheaper (Studio largely plays that role), but probably are not looking to drive the entry price way up either for folks who just want a couple of internal standard width slots and storage drives.

The MP 5,1 (2010-2012) model only had 4 slots. So if Apple slid back to 3-4 slots it would still be in close to Mac Pro land ( except for the "gotta have completely modular 3rd party GPU" folks ).
 
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prefuse07

Suspended
Jan 27, 2020
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Who promised a tease at WWDC? It was not Apple. They just said 'later" that was no where near a promise of "June". It actually will be later in 2022. ( won't be surprising if doesn't not ship in large numbers until 2023. If long ago they targeted Nov-Dec 2022 and with some hiccups that slide out a Quarter , then it would easily hit 2023 primarily because it was 'barely' in 2022 in the first place. )

I agree, nobody promised anything -- Apple said "later," which could mean a world of possibilities, so the OP is misleading with the thread title. Hopefully we will see something come September, hopefully!
 
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blackquartz

macrumors regular
Oct 22, 2009
116
157
I don't think Apple Processors and PCI lanes are a very real idea, and AMD cards easily shame any M1 or M2 in real work performance, not to mention RAM and component expandability are opposed ideas to the SOC principle. So at this point im not really sure of what to expect from a new Mac Pro.
 
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deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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I don't think Apple Processors and PCI lanes are a very real idea,


The M1 and M2 have four PCI-e v4 lanes. So it is real. Just not in bundles of x16 lanes, but Apple does have a working PCI-e controller(s) on the chips. 10GbE sockets on the Studio only needs x1 PCI-e v4 lane (or two run at v3 speeds).


Apple supports PCI-e cards over Thunderbolt. For example, two recent cards introduced by Sonnet Tech:


https://www.sonnettech.com/product/m2-2x4-ssd-low-profile-pcie-card/techspecs.html#techspecs

[ Not listed at the 'top' of the spec sheet in the "Mac" section , but in the Thunderbolt section there is a Mac subsection there. Both cards work with 'M1' Macs. ]


What Apple is showing zero progress on is PCI-e card GPU drivers. PCI-e in general though isn't an issue. There is classes and features in the driverkit framework for modern Mac drivers for a general class PCI-e card. It is all very real because there is real product being sold right now.


Since Apple is doing work for Thunderbolt PCI-e there is little good reason for them to ignore PCI-e for a dual or quad die Apple SoC. Even if they blindly just took the "Max" class die and re-packaged it up as a "Ultra" and "Quad/Extreme" there would be at least one "extra", unsued x4 PCI-e controller just lying around ( and for four dies that could easily bloats up to three (maybe two if still get two 10GbE ports). ). One or two Plex switches from x4 PCI-e v4 to x8 PCI-e v3 and would have a natural fit with those two Sonnet cards.


There is a 'loud' minority who equate "PCI-e" with "discrete GPU cards". Those are suppose to be same thing (without GPU cards , PCI-e wold collapse into a heap of uselessness. ). That isn't really true either.


The Apple SoC is highly likely to start off with an "Utlra" class SoC and pretty likely to include something bigger than "Ultra". Given the current "Ultra" already has under utilized PCI-e controller then it pretty likely that a M2/M3 future version likely would also. So zero slots is pretty unlikely. It is already provisioned, simply need a bigger enclosure and simple switch to widen out the lane bundle. That is no where near a "moon shot" product.


Similarly, if Apple is just lazily duplicating the laptop dies then there also will be a glut of Thunderbolt controllers. If super lazy then just run that to a embedded Intel discrete controller and can pop out a x4 PCI-e v3 slot(s) also. Six TB ports is dubious ( two on front and four on back is more useful than six on the back. Studio Ultra only goes to six (with two unused TB controller.). If crank up to four laptop dies there would be even more idle TB controllers.

A desktop die that traded TB port provisioning for PCI-e lane cluster provisioning could more directly get x8 slot infrastructure without the discrete switches and gyrations. Apple probably wouldn't chase PCI-e v5 in short term (zero good Mac laptop die tie-in there. ). Apple doesn't need to radically change from their laptop die constraints and infrastructure, but could be laid out better to scale to multiple die solutions and still get to more PCI-e lane provisioning without any new basic building blocks.


and AMD cards easily shame any M1 or M2 in real work performance,

The very top end of the scale. But the 6600X , old 580X , W5700 , W6400 . Those are not out of reach for a "Ultra" or "Quad/Extreme" class M2 generation SoC. The Mac Pro isn't going to have a 'plain' M2 GPU. Or likely not a M2 Pro/Max class GPU either.



not to mention RAM

The "floor" of minimal RAM is likely going to be a bigger problem for many of the very "old school" Mac Pro users than cranking the RAM even higher. Like the entry level price doubling from MP 2013 to MP 2019. There will be folks "left behind".



and component expandability are opposed ideas to the SOC principle.

As pointed out above.... it won't be hard to provision some PCI-e slots on the new Mac Pro system even with Apple's current SoC design parameters. ( new USB ports , SSDs , Audio, Video capture , etc. are all covered by macOS on M-series drivers now. Zero good reason why a new Mac Pro would be excluded. )



So at this point im not really sure of what to expect from a new Mac Pro.

It is not going to be the ultimate commodity component container box. The MP 2019 default SSD is technically modular but it is also not a commodity component either. Probably more for the next iteration. RAM and GPU probably not ( Nvidia and AMD GPUs don't have modular RAM either. ) AMD/Nvidia are heading for the 400-600W high end GPU card range and Apple is not. Every M-series presentation Apple has made so far is not about consuming the highest wattage possible at all.

Apple is also highly unlikely going to abandoned the Audio/Video capture card market for the Mac Pro. Extremely likely going to limit the Mac Pro to one, and only one, internal storage drive.

The rumor of a "half sized Mac Pro" has a decent chance of being true. It won't be a 1400W, maximum USA wall socket outlet system. Probably get something that beats the most popular configuration of a Mac Pro 2019 ( 16 cores and W5700 ) with significantly less power consumed and still can hold some PCI-e cards.

It probably won't be a HP Z8 or Dell 7820 "killer" system though.
 

edanuff

macrumors 6502a
Oct 30, 2008
578
259
What Apple is showing zero progress on is PCI-e card GPU drivers.

I keep coming back to this. It just doesn’t make a ton of sense for Apple to do the throwaway work on this. Right now, every line of GPU code written pays them back over a decade (the 2022 Studio GPU is the 2032 Watch GPU - edit: not literally the same chip obviously 😉). Metal keeps getting better with the singleminded sustained focus. Maybe if they could get AMD to do the work but unless Apple is shipping AMD chips in volume, it doesn’t seem worth it to AMD. Assuming it gets done then its still a lose/lose. If the third party GPUs actually outperform then it’s a black eye and it has downstream negative impact on the Studio and more importantly MacBook Pro businesses, which can never happen. If the third party GPU’s don’t perform as well as they do in Intel boxes or there is insufficient power supplies or other physical compatibility issues then it causes blowback with the spec-chasing tech press and bloggers using it to criticize the PCI performance and hardware architecture of the Apple Silicon Pro and then what was mean to be a flagship demonstration of workstation class performance ends up instead highlighting its limitations in an open architecture scenario it never intended to compete it. The problem is that the Pro line may just not make a ton of sense without third-party GPUs. As discussed before, there are other paths, like Apple GPU cards that would at least not be dead ends from an R&D standpoint but would be expensive low volume products that might not have much market acceptance.
 
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enc0re

macrumors 6502
Jun 7, 2010
402
642
The Studio scales so high on the desktop, in spirit it's similar to the 6,1. Knowing that Mac Pro is sticking around, I expect Apple to swing for the fences. Target rackmount first with some sort of blade system to add additional Apple silicon as desired. Something you could see in a server farm and make more sense than racks of Mac minis.
 
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sn1p3r845

macrumors regular
Feb 9, 2012
216
108
Vancouver, BC
I agree, nobody promised anything -- Apple said "later," which could mean a world of possibilities, so the OP is misleading with the thread title. Hopefully we will see something come September, hopefully!
sure they did, they promised the entire apple lineup to be transitioned around 2 years so time is ticking.

“We expect the transition to take about two years.” -Tim Cook, June 22, 2020
01:46:06

 
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deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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sure they did, they promised the entire apple lineup to be transitioned around 2 years so time is ticking.

“We expect the transition to take about two years.” -Tim Cook, June 22, 2020
01:46:06

'around 2 years ' 'about two years'. Before the pandemic ( on their original timeline that was probably something close to 2 years +/- 6 months. ). June 22 2020 was when really no solid clue how disruptive thing would get to the supply chain. So 2 years +/- 9 months (mostly on the '+'. Apple gave themselves an undefined error bar on timing.

They would get in "hot water" trouble if they didn't "sneak peak" the Mac Pro before end of 2022. The last two times they "sneak peaked" a Mac Pro system it was an additional 6 months. If they previewed in October and shipped in March , then there would still be in the "about two years range". Not demoing at WWDC makes it a decent chance that this is sliding into 2023.

This product appears to be slip sliding into early 2023 also.


getting the silicon parts made at scale is likely an issue for both. Apple should hold either one of these two back if really ready, but decent chance they are poking in different zones of the leading edge and there are issues.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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I keep coming back to this. It just doesn’t make a ton of sense for Apple to do the throwaway work on this. Right now, every line of GPU code written pays them back over a decade (the 2022 Studio GPU is the 2032 Watch GPU - edit: not literally the same chip obviously 😉).

Throwaway? They don't have any macOS ARM drivers for 3rd party GPUs so didn't have one in the first place.
The kernel security model of the macOS on ARM is a different model than what Apple has used before (immutable code pages as an opcode API extension) . All kernel extensions are deprecated. Apple announced that over 2 years ago ( that started in 2019:


). Everything kernel related is on the "rewrite" path. Apple is having lots of folks toss lots of stuff.

Apple is pushing all non Apple code out of the kernel . Part of the issue is whether can have 3rd party GPU drivers out in the IOMMU mapped "in between" space.

Metal keeps getting better with the singleminded sustained focus. Maybe if they could get AMD to do the work

AMD has been doing a significant fraction of the work all along. Even with metal still going to require some low level work to interface with the hardware. ( at some point need a hardware aware optimizing compiler. Going to be pretty tough to do that with zero AMD (or other 3rd party) involvement .

Metal keeps getting better at Apple GPU priorities. Holistically it isn't necessarily getting "better" where objectives are not 100% aligned with Apple's.


but unless Apple is shipping AMD chips in volume, doesn’t seem worth it to AMD.

That's one of the core factors. There is no one-for-one GPU buy per system contract anymore. ( e.g., MBP 15" 80-100% of the systems come with a dGPU. iMac 27" where 90-100% of systems come with a dGPU. etc. ). Upper 25% GPU users in Mac Pro space isn't really good enough. Apple is also very restrictive on what would be an eGPU (had to be on track to be a embedded GPU in some Mac. ). If Apple is evicting opportunity to be a default dGPU from 98+ % of Mac market.

The 'borrow money to keep the lights on' AMD from 5-6 years ago might have played along for table scraps. But AMD has the Xlinix business now. A much larger share of server CPU and HPC GPU compute market (supercomputer component contracts ). There are plenty of other R&D investment options that AMD has now that would likely get a better return. If Apple paid for the driver work upfront and for GPUs not in a Mac Pro then maybe. But Apple can be Scrooge McDuck at times.





Assuming it gets done then its still a lose/lose.

Not really.

If the third party GPUs actually outperform then it’s a black eye and it has downstream negative impact on the Studio and more importantly MacBook Pro businesses, which can never happen.

There is an implicit flaw here that the Mac Pro is going to be priced anywhere near those. Most likely it probably will not be. So if have to pay a $6-7K before got to any $2+ K AMD GPU options then a $5K Studio Ultra is going to have a nice price umbrella protection.

The folks who want the higher performance will pay more and get the Mac Pro. But lots of folks just don't have budgets that go that high. The M-series Mac Pro probably will not announce the return of the old 2009-2013 price points.

The entry Mac Pro and the "Ultra" Studio will probably overlap in performance. The Studio will have a lower price tag and hence have Perf/$ leverage. There will be a large 'upcharge' for modularity options that will likely segment the two systems. Relatively similar issue with the laptops. The modularity "upcharge" likely as big as the embedded screen surcharge (and still don't have a screen with the Mac Pro).

It is not a 'lose' here largely because it would be addressing a different market segment for both Apple and users.

If the third party GPU’s don’t perform as well as they do in Intel boxes or there is insufficient power supplies or other physical compatibility issues then it causes blowback with the spec-chasing tech press and bloggers using it to criticize the PCI performance and hardware architecture of the Apple Silicon Pro and then what was mean to be a flagship demonstration of workstation class performance ends up instead highlighting its limitations in an open architecture scenario it never intended to compete it.

Errrr, not as good a graphics performance as in Windows... that has kind of been true for decades in several apps. Same stuff, different day. It isn't going to 'kill' the option anymore than it killed it over the last decades.

Similar if you go back in the archives back in the 2006-2010 era there was always some chatter about the Mac Pro wasn't a "big" as the HP Z8 or Max class Dell workstation. Again the Mac Pro did OK. That wasn't a "lose/lose" back then. Really wouldn't be one now either.


Apple probably is not going to get into the 500+ W PCI-e GPU card future track that Nvidia/AMD are jumping onto. ( PCI-e v5 12 pin connectors and more. ). Some will tag that as "insufficient power supplies" , but not all workstations on the PC side are going to take the maximum 'fire breathing dragon' cards either.

It actually would be a "lose" if there is no good way to add in additional GPGPU compute power. Similar "lose" if Apple tried to permanently kill off OpenGL , OpenCL or any other API other than Metal.

The problem is that the Pro line may just not make a ton of sense without third-party GPUs.

For single user, 3D graphics pipeline ... maybe. But for scale out, embarrassingly parallel compute ... it is actually the opposite. Apple iGPU only approach doesn't scale so doesn't make sense to kneecap the Mac line up (and Mac Pro) like that.




As discussed before, there are other paths, like Apple GPU cards that would at least not be dead ends from an R&D standpoint but would be expensive low volume products that might not have much market acceptance.

Apple GPU tiles/chiplets perhaps. But 'long distance' , high latency remote memory GPU 'cards'. There is nothing in WWDC pointing at that any more than 3rd party discrete cards.
 

edanuff

macrumors 6502a
Oct 30, 2008
578
259
Throwaway?

Yes, Apple doing an ARM PCI driver for an AMD card would be throwaway work if AMD has no role in the rest of the product line. As you said, they apparently haven't done any work so far, for that reason. I may be misreading your comments but you seem to be arguing both sides on this.

It actually would be a "lose" if there is no good way to add in additional GPGPU compute power. Similar "lose" if Apple tried to permanently kill off OpenGL , OpenCL or any other API other than Metal.

That would be cool but who is a Mac Pro add-in GPGPU capability for?

For single user, 3D graphics pipeline ... maybe. But for scale out, embarrassingly parallel compute ... it is actually the opposite. Apple iGPU only approach doesn't scale so doesn't make sense to kneecap the Mac line up (and Mac Pro) like that.

Not clear that that "scale out, embarrassingly parallel compute" is a place the Mac Pro needs to play, the cloud exists and isn't going away. The Apple iGPU only approaches most definitely scales for every single device in the entire end to end Apple product line except for the Mac Pro. That's why we're having the discussion of whether it's feasible for the Mac Pro to be the outlier.

As much as I hate to say it, the slotbox upgraders are at least clear and consistent on what they want - the ability to replace their GPUs on a yearly basis and to cheat Apple on the RAM and storage margins. That's what product-market fit looks like for the Pro - open-ended expansion in service of single user 3D workloads. I personally don't think that's a business Apple strategically cares to be in but who knows? Maybe the Amethyst leak on the new Pro in the other thread is correct.
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Oct 22, 2009
719
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Gents, we live to fight another day - not even a tease of the Apple Silicon Mac Pro at WWDC 2022. We're still the latest and greatest Mac Pro!

Very interesting they didn't mention it - would make sense as its the "top" dog especially concerning developers if you would push the hardware to the max.

Maybe the whole GPU thing isn't ready yet for reveal - as a full decked out 7.1 Mac Pro still trounces the fastest Mac Studio with GPU heavy tasks like R3D Raw, 3D work, etc.

Anyway, curious to see what they develop - what do you guys think is going on?
I 100% agree with you, and I explain as much in this video. People don't understand that part...and that's where Apple is going to run into an issue with the Mac Pro 8.1...
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
Also no mention of hardware raytracing in M2. I think this really just killed Apple within our studio.

the MacBook Air is nice though as a consumer laptop at home ;)
Definitely doesn't kill Apple in our studio. Mac Pro with 28 cores and 2 w6800x Duo's is just a MONSTER of a machine...and frankly, we are 100% Mac based. Another studio that has a 100% Mac Setup that I love is Lunar... https://www.lunaranimation.com/lunar-blog/2021/03/02/mac-pro-a-year-in-the-studio
 
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