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Yahoo! Mail Not True "Push"

D

davpel

macrumors member
Original poster
Jul 3, 2007
62
0
I've become a bit obsessed with getting the mail client on the iPhone working in a more reliable manner and have now become convinced that the much-heralded Yahoo! "push" implementation which Jobs trumpted during his keynote is not actually a true "push" service at all (i.e. it doesn't use IMAP IDLE and apparently doesn't use P-IMAP as some have asserted here). Rather, I believe that the system which is actually in place is something similar to AUTD -- the quasi-push implementation utilized on pre-WM5 devices. My reasoning is based upon the following observation:

Whenever you perform a manual e-mail pull on the iPhone, it automatically pulls mail from ALL mail accounts which the user has created on the device. Currently, I have two accounts set up on my device: Yahoo! and Fastmail. I set the device to check for mail "manually" which is supposedly the correct setting for Yahoo! "push" and which, theoretically, should keep my Fastmail account dormant unless and until I do a manual sync of that account. However, what actually occurs when a new Yahoo! "push" message appears is that I also get any new messages which have been sent to my Fastmail account at the same time. Thus, it would appear that the receipt of a new message in the Yahoo! account triggers the phone (likely with a hidden SMS message) to perform a manual pull on the device, thereby pulling from all accounts.

This might explain why Yahoo! push is so damn buggy (I always hated AUTD and found it completely unreliable).

Any thoughts?

Edit:

Apparently, the fine folks over at Fastmail (say that ten times quickly) have come to the same conclusion. See http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/forum/index.html

This is very disheartening.
 
I have done a lot of reading on this subject but have never seen anything from Apple or Yahoo that decribes how they have implemented there Push Email. From the link below "they" say that "Apple's iPhone features push e-mail using a proprietary protocol when used with the Yahoo! mail service". After reading the link below that decribes several types of Push Email, that to say that Yahoo Mail is not "true" push does not seem accurate. Since Blackberry seems to be the most popular, would you say that they are the only ones that are doing "true" Push Email. To me Push email means that the client does not have to Poll the server every so many minutes until mail is available for download. With varies forms of Push Email I think the best would the one that uses the least amount of battery and was the most reliable. Not sure which one that would be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_e-mail
 
It actually makes a lot of sense to use SMS as a trigger for an email check over EDGE or WiFi. (SMS is apparently also used to tell the iPhone to get visual voice mail messages over EDGE.)

SMS is a true Push... versus timed Pulls or keeping a socket open for an hour at a time, which is a server killer, and requires devices to hold their DHCP derived address.
 
kdarling said:
It actually makes a lot of sense to use SMS as a trigger for an email check over EDGE or WiFi. (SMS is apparently also used to tell the iPhone to get visual voice mail messages over EDGE.)

SMS is a true Push... versus timed Pulls or keeping a socket open for an hour at a time, which is a server killer, and requires devices to hold their DHCP derived address.
Click to expand...

I disagree that triggered pull = true push. True push (whether BB, IMAP IDLE, Lemonade) means that the message itself is sent directly to the device as soon as it hits the server. The iPhone implementation, whether it is by SMS or a WAP trigger, still requires the device to go and get the message, which is really no different than if you were to turn on the iPhone yourself and hit the update button.

Also, this type of triggered pull tends to be less reliable. That's why there was such a hoopla when WM5 came and offered true push via the hearbeat connection -- users no longer had to rely on AUTD and its inherent instability. I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Just take a look at any of the iPhone-specific forums in existence right now (this one, HOFO, Everything iPhone, Apple Support). There are pretty much universal complaints about how the Yahoo! service is working. Had Apple stuck to an established protocol (preferably IDLE), we wouldn't have this issue.

As for battery life, I never found there to be any issuing when using IDLE with Flexmail on WM or Chatter on Palm.
 
davpel said:
...which is really no different than if you were to turn on the iPhone yourself and hit the update button.
Click to expand...

Do you really believe this? I get an audible notification when mail arrives on my phone. Then I turn it on to read my mail. No comparison. Even Polling Pop would be better then this.

As far as battery like, I think setting on an OPEN TCPIP IDLE Connection would use more battery then getting an SMS notification that mail is available.
 
davpel said:
I disagree that triggered pull = true push..
Click to expand...

Yes sir, there's a pull part to it. But the trigger is true push, and it's always better for the device itself to decide if it has room to get the information. This is good embedded systems practice.

davpel said:
Also, this type of triggered pull tends to be less reliable.
Click to expand...

Odd, since SMS should be reliable. Perhaps it's the combination that's messing up people. You need both a good voice connection and a good data connection. Have you noticed if the phone doesn't notify you of a new message only when there's no decent WiFi or EDGE?

davpel said:
That's why there was such a hoopla when WM5 came and offered true push via the hearbeat connection --
Click to expand...

No, it was money. Back then fewer people had unlimited text messaging. All the SMS's in the original method caused huge bills!

Best, Kev
 
davpel said:
Because for many of us, push mail is a necessity and, although Jobs promised users this feature, it apparently does not exist!
Click to expand...

I have been using Yahoo "Push" mail for a few weeks now so it does exsist. My guess is that most will say it has problems and can be better, but it does exist unless you feel that if it is not IMAP IDLE then it is not "true" Push Email.
 
kdarling said:
Odd, since SMS should be reliable. Perhaps it's the combination that's messing up people. You need both a good voice connection and a good data connection. Have you noticed if the phone doesn't notify you of a new message only when there's no decent WiFi or EDGE?
Click to expand...

Well, there are numerous reports that Yahoo! mail does not get pushed when you are on WiFi, so that does seem to be a factor.
 
d21mike said:
I have been using Yahoo "Push" mail for a few weeks now so it does exsist. My guess is that most will say it has problems and can be better, but it does exist unless you feel that if it is not IMAP IDLE then it is not "true" Push Email.
Click to expand...

I don't believe it has to use IDLE, but IMHO polling is not push. At best, it is quasi-push or simulated-push.
 
kdarling said:
No, it was money. Back then fewer people had unlimited text messaging. All the SMS's in the original method caused huge bills!
Click to expand...

I don't think this was the case. Although I can't remember what using AUTD was like on Sprint, I do recall that WM users were not charged for AUTD generated text messages on T-Mobile and Verizon. The way Verizon handled the situation was to allow all WM users access to a plan entitled "PDA2000" which included 2000 free SMS messages/month to cover AUTD. AFAIK, that plan is still in existence -- in fact, I still had it on my VZW account as late as two months ago when I was using a WM5 device!
 
davpel said:
I don't believe it has to use IDLE, but IMHO polling is not push. At best, it is quasi-push or simulated-push.
Click to expand...

Yahoo Push is not Polling. All other email is Polled with a 15 minute minumun interval. Not sure why you insist on calling it quasi-push since Apple and Yahoo have not indicated exactly how it works. I believe everyone is just guessing how it works. I think a lot of people are complaining because "their" IMAP IDLE (or whatever) is not supported. Only Yahoo Push is supported. I personally would like to see Microsoft Exchange and Blackberry Connect Support. IMAP IDLE would be third on my list.
 
d21mike said:
Yahoo Push is not Polling. All other email is Polled with a 15 minute minumun interval. Not sure why you insist on calling it quasi-push since Apple and Yahoo have not indicated exactly how it works. I believe everyone is just guessing how it works. I think a lot of people are complaining because "their" IMAP IDLE (or whatever) is not supported. Only Yahoo Push is supported. I personally would like to see Microsoft Exchange and Blackberry Connect Support. IMAP IDLE would be third on my list.
Click to expand...

If you go back and look at the source in the link I provided (http://blog.isode.com/2007/07/iphone-signific.html), an iPhone user did a packet dumb and confirmed that Yahoo! mail is using some type of polling rather than push. The article also mentions a pretty significant security vulnerability inherent in Apple and Yahoo!'s implementation.

That aside even, if it is true push and not polling, then explain why all active accounts on the iPhone (including those set to poll at 15 minute intervals) get updated when new Yahoo! mail gets "pushed"?
 
davpel said:
If you go back and look at the source in the link I provided (http://blog.isode.com/2007/07/iphone-signific.html), an iPhone user did a packet dumb and confirmed that Yahoo! mail is using some type of polling rather than push. The article also mentions a pretty significant security vulnerability inherent in Apple and Yahoo!'s implementation.

That aside even, if it is true push and not polling, then explain why all active accounts on the iPhone (including those set to poll at 15 minute intervals) get updated when new Yahoo! mail gets "pushed"?
Click to expand...

I did see the security concerns but I did not see that they said it did polling instead of push. It specifically said that for IMAP Servers "other than Yahoo" it does Polling which is exactly what I said. They also said that "XYMPKI provides Yahoo! IMAP with information on the phone, that enables an alert about new email to be sent by an out of band alert mechanism (which we speculate is SMS)." Again, it is "guessing" as to how the PUSH EMAIL works. My point exactly. No one but Apple and Yahoo knows how the Push implementation works.

Not sure I am best to debate if SMS vs IMAP IDLE is best for a Mobile Phone. But I would pick the one that uses the least amount of battery and is most reliable. All I know is that is does not POLL every 15 min.

As far as it checking for email on your other accounts while it is handling the Push email from Yahoo I would not know since I only use Yahoo Mail. I don't think I would have done it that way but maybe they felt that while they were downloading your other Yahoo Mail that they would go ahead and check your other accounts at the same time. Just a guess. However, that does not prove that Yahoo Mail is not Push. At least using my definition of Push. Which means that when my email arrives at the Server it is downloaded to my phone and no Polling is required.
 
In all honesty, who cares HOW it is done, as long as you get your email? It isn't like a business email that has to be instant, because face it, no business uses a yahoo email account....Even if they do, they are probably soo small that a 5 minute wait is fine! The iPhone is designed and works great for the target market. I don't see the big deal with this sms indicator because i get my mail, so oh well.

If you are a heavy business user that needs real push email, then see a blackberry because the iphone doesn't support it, not yet at least.
 
If it would work, I wouldn't care about the "how."

All I know is that I was using Blackberry Enterprise Server email when I had my 8700G, and it worked, PERFECTLY.

Between the push email and wireless syncing, it was awesome.

I heard Jobs say this had push, so I bought one. Without PUSH, I would have NEVER purchased the iPhone, regardless of just how much of a mac zealot I am.

I feel cheated.
 
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