10GBit Ethernet?

[kohlson]

Imagine a world where lots of IoT devices are throwing around a low more sensor data, including video.

This might be a world for some people. But it's hard to understand how all that will exceed the capabilities of a 1000Mb network. 10 4K cameras @40Mbps would be less than 400Mb, leaving 2-400Mb for sensors and whatnot in this hyper-surveilled household. Of course, you'd probably need 3 of those camera to keep an eye on your in-house data center ...

When the shingles were off my house 25 years ago I ran conduit instead of just pulling Cat5e. You know, future proof for when better cable was required. But then, wi-fi got a lot better. 802.11ac is gigabit-ish. I can say with certainty that if my needs ever exceed gigabit, it won't be with wireline.

I'm not saying there is no need for 10Gb. Just that if you aren't really aware of how you'd use it now (or 1Gb for that matter) then you probably won't need it in the next several years. And as noted above, you can always add with an external adapter as required.

 

[BasilFawlty]

I would say I wouldn't bother with the 10Gb Ethernet in your situation (or for the majority of people out there). Based off what you said, you wouldn't ever be able to take advantage of the faster network speeds, and it would basically be a waste of an investment. Keep in mind that to take advantage of 10Gb Ethernet, it requires more than just the port on your iMac. You would need other networking equipment, such as a 10Gb router, and also a reason to use it.

Thanks - that's kinda the conclusion I'm coming to. I'm just a hobbyist photographer who will process mostly digital (Raw) photos and some occasional 4k video. Even though it's "only" $100, I'm starting to feel it would be $100 wasted for me.

 

[Hexley]

Imagine a world where lots of IoT devices are throwing around a low more sensor data, including video. Or even AR/VR. Hundreds per household. It will eat up the LAN bandwidth. Say 5-10yr horizon. I’m sure WiFi will improve your help too though. I had a choice 7 years ago to re-wire my whole house with cat 5e or 6 so I did the latter, as not something you can easily do without massive disruption. not everyone will be in this situation I grant you.

Sounds like a use case of 1% of most households.

By the time you need more bandwidth you're up to buying a new computer anyway.

Two years ago I bought a 4 bay NAS each populated with a 12TB HDD. Later did I realize that I actually needed was a 1 bay NAS and a $100 HDD.

This NAS was a torrent box and I forgot that I only watch movies/TV only once.

I overbought. Money could have been used for something better like a high yield savings accounts that's 4% p.a.

 

[HDFan]

When you have a 10gbps NAS or file server.

Having a 10 gbps NIC is future proof if you ever want more than 1 gbps WAN speed. A 10 gbps switch will be needed

I thought as much but recently I’ve found I’ve saturated my 1Gb LAN at times with several machines hitting a central file/TM Server with backups

But it's hard to understand how all that will exceed the capabilities of a 1000Mb network.

As above, the most obvious benefit of 10 GbE is connecting to a NAS, or if you have multiple devices with heavy network traffic (such as backups or file transfers) on the same network.

I have several NAS RAID units which I populate with terabytes of data. My 1 Gbe Synology transfers at a maximum of about 105/106 GB/s W/R while my 10 Gbe QNAP goes up to 227/576 MB/s W/R. It takes days to populate the units, but the 10 Gbe QNAP does it in 1/2 the time. If you have multiple machines running backups then this can be a justification.

Had a number of issues where my iMac Pro didn't play well with 10 Gbe switches. Spent a lot of time on support calls with Apple, QNAP and Synology. Finally determined that the problem was my 10 Gbe switch. The 3rd one I got, a Netgear, finally worked using RJ45 connectors and Cat 6 cables (short distances).

There are 10 Gbe adapters so if you have enough thunderbolt ports then you have an option if you need it later. Otherwise you are out of luck.

As to the future, NAS vendors are clearly moving toward higher network bandwidth. QNAP has offered 10 Gbe units for years. Synology only offers a 10 Gbe add-on card, but their most recent release has 4 ethernet ports so they also recognize that 1 Gbe is starting to show its limitations.

 

[Juicy Box]

Thanks - that's kinda the conclusion I'm coming to. I'm just a hobbyist photographer who will process mostly digital (Raw) photos and some occasional 4k video. Even though it's "only" $100, I'm starting to feel it would be $100 wasted for me.

Yeah, I agree.

There are definitely some uses for the 10Gb Ethernet port, but at this point in the consumer market, 10Gb networking isn't really necessary for most homes. I suspect that this will remain the case for at least the typical life of the iMac.

And if this every changes and an user finds a need for a faster connection, you could always get a TB3 adapter.

There are 10 Gbe adapters so if you have enough thunderbolt ports then you have an option if you need it later. Otherwise you are out of luck.

Even if there isn't enough TB3 ports, if someone needed the faster Ethernet, they could just get a TB3 dock with 10Gb Ethernet and an additional TB3 port.

I'm not saying there is no need for 10Gb. Just that if you aren't really aware of how you'd use it now (or 1Gb for that matter) then you probably won't need it in the next several years.

This is my thinking as well.

While the cost of 10Gb port on the iMac is not really that high, there is little point to pay for it if the user would hardly/never need it.

This might be a world for some people. But it's hard to understand how all that will exceed the capabilities of a 1000Mb network.

Yup. Just think about networking from a typical household. How many devices would even need 100Mbps, let alone 1000Mbps or 10Gbps.

The final price really starts to add up when configuring the different BTO options on the iMac. Some of the BTO options, while not necessary, even a basic user could reap the benefits of them (faster processor, GPU, larger internal storage, longevity and resale value).

Unlike some of the other BTO options, the 10Gb Ethernet could be obtained by using a relatively inexpensive adapter if the user finds that it is needed one day.

 

[nicho]

Unlike some of the other BTO options, the 10Gb Ethernet could be obtained by using a relatively inexpensive adapter if the user finds that it is needed one day.

Relative to what?

The BTO option is $100 and thunderbolt-10Gb adapters retail around $150-$200. And take up one of the two thunderbolt ports, with no other connections on them.

 

[Juicy Box]

Relative to what?

Compared to adding an equivalent to the other BTO options after the fact.

If someone decides not to add the 10Gb port BTO option now, but finds out later that they need it, they could still get it for much cheaper than if someone decides not to go for the processor or GPU BTO options.

The BTO option is $100 and thunderbolt-10Gb adapters retail around $150-$200.

Yeah, but if someone like the OP questions whether or not they would ever utilize the 10Gb port, it could be the difference between saving $100 or wasting it.

External adapters cost more than the port for now, but this could change later on when/if a user finds that the Gigabit port just isn't enough for them.

Even if prices 10Gb adapters never drop, the difference is spending $100 now on a port that the OP will most likely not ever use, or $150 later if their use ever changes.

And take up one of the two thunderbolt ports, with no other connections on them.

If the user decides not to get the 10Gb Ethernet, then later finds that they need it, if using up one of the TB3 ports is an issue for them, they could get a TB3 dock with a 10Gb port on it. This would have a greater benefit as it would most likely come with a bunch of extra ports that they would probably end up utilizing.


BTW.... I personally could see some benefit to using 10Gbps connection in my home due to managing home media servers within my home, but I doubt that the average home even comes close to 1000Mbps for any of their devices, let alone 10Gbps.

 

[nicho]

Compared to adding an equivalent to the other BTO options after the fact.

If someone decides not to add the 10Gb port BTO option now, but finds out later that they need it, they could still get it for much cheaper than if someone decides not to go for the processor or GPU BTO options.



Yeah, but if someone like the OP questions whether or not they would ever utilize the 10Gb port, it could be the difference between saving $100 or wasting it.

External adapters cost more than the port for now, but this could change later on when/if a user finds that the Gigabit port just isn't enough for them.

Even if prices 10Gb adapters never drop, the difference is spending $100 now on a port that the OP will most likely not ever use, or $150 later if their use ever changes.


If the user decides not to get the 10Gb Ethernet, then later finds that they need it, if using up one of the TB3 ports is an issue for them, they could get a TB3 dock with a 10Gb port on it. This would have a greater benefit as it would most likely come with a bunch of extra ports that they would probably end up utilizing.


BTW.... I personally could see some benefit to using 10Gbps connection in my home due to managing home media servers within my home, but I doubt that the average home even comes close to 1000Mbps for any of their devices, let alone 10Gbps.

FWIW, I don't think most people would need it either and I didn't get it in my mac mini last year because of the cost of upgrading other parts of my home network.

But since Thunderbolt accessories haven't typically reduced in price over the years, I don't think "relatively inexpensive" is a good way to describe the alternatives to this BTO option - it requires an investment of at least 50% more, or 3x as much if they take your suggestion and get a TB3 dock (options with 10Gb ports are extremely limited, and also make compromises).

What would be relatively inexpensive would be a 5Gbps adapter, which are already available around the $80 mark and are likely, at some point, to plummet and become as cheap as gigabit ethernet adapters from Chinese brands. I may end up picking one of those up when the mac mini moves to "home server" duties, but I'll still need to invest in a new router to take advantage.

 

[Juicy Box]

But since Thunderbolt accessories haven't typically reduced in price over the years, I don't think "relatively inexpensive" is a good way to describe the alternatives to this BTO option

I could be wrong, but I think you are missing the point I was making.

I am not saying that the other BTO options are cheaper than the 10Gb ethernet, but adding those options later after the time of purchase could be a lot more expensive than adding the 10Gb adapter or dock.

The difference in price of adding a 10Gb port now with the BTO option and adding it later via an adapter and dock is really not that much different.

These adapters can be easily installed in a few seconds since it is just being plugged into a port. So, if a user decided to add a 10Gb Ethernet port later on, it wouldn't require the cost of paying someone to install it.

Now, compare that to other BTO options being added later, such as upgrading the processor. The processor alone would probably cost more than the BTO upgrade option. The cost of having it installed by someone or the time for the user to install the upgraded processor would add to that.

That is what I mean by relatively inexpensive adapter.

Also, this is assuming that prices of the 10Gb adapters will never drop and the user doesn't want to buy used adapters. It could actually be cheaper to add a 10Gb adapter later than adding one now via the BTO options if the prices drop or if one considers the used market.

 

[nicho]

The difference in price of adding a 10Gb port now with the BTO option and adding it later via an adapter and dock is really not that much different.

$300 is a lot different to $100, but I do now see the point you were making.

 

[Juicy Box]

$300 is a lot different to $100

Well, that is really on the high end of things, and you also have to consider everything to get to that point.

Most people would not use the 10Gb Ethernet, and most of the ones that currently do or will soon, would most likely pay for the $100 BTO option for the 10Gb Ethernet.

For the people that didn't get the BTO option and finds out later that they need it, they could just get an TB3 adapter which isn't that much more than the BTO option. OWC has one for $133 right now.

If they cannot spare a TB3 port, then they could be spending close to $300, but again, it isn't just for the 10Gb port, but for a bunch of other things included with the dock.


For the people that know that they would utilize the 10Gb Ethernet, then of course, get the BTO option from Apple, but there are plenty of people like the OP that doesn't currently need a 10Gb connection and may not need one for a very long time.

 

[ADGrant]

Given the low number of TB3 ports on the iMac and the cost of the upgrade, I just went ahead and ordered the BTO cable. My NAS has an expansion slot and there are 10GB cards available for that slot. I could use the 10GB for a direct connect or just buy a small 10GB switch.

 

[MacRS4]

I have 10Gbe on my network, and I have 1GB up/down Internet. My NAS units are 10Gbe.

Bear in mind if you have a 1Gbe connected NAS for example, and say a high speed internet connection, if you start copying stuff to that NAS at say 100MB/s, then you won't then get decent performance from your internet connection as you'll run out of capacity. As many others have probably said, it's a use case scenario.

For me, 10Gbe saves me a ton of time. I often have to move about 200-300GB virtualisation sets. Wating to do that over 1Gbe is painful, over 10Gbe it means go grab a coffee and then it's done. It turns a 50 minute wait time in to a 6-10 minute wait time.

Couple of gotchas to watch out for. Most the Mac kit i've got with 10Gbe native ports - iMac Pro, Mac Mini - they don't seem to work particularly well directly connected. I found the connectivity unreliable unless I put a switch in the middle. I've also find the iMac Pro especially to be a bit fussy with 10Gbe switches. The Netgear i have has been rock-solid.

Also, with Thunderbolt 3 connected devices, you need to check what's running over that Thunderbolt 3. Ethernet over TB3 for example (like on my QNAP NAS) is 10Gbe, as that's the TB spec.

 

[Freida]

Isn't it incorrect? 10Gbit = 1.25Gbyte (10x8) no?
1Gbit is the 125mbs.

Or am I not remembering my IT correctly?
1byte=8bits?

So for 10Gbit to even be useful, you would need a use case and supporting equipment.

You'll need like someone mentioned, a 2nd piece of hardware that has 10Gbit.
That piece of hardware would have to even have the ability to send and receive data at 10Gb speeds.
Example: A NAS with 10Gbit, that NAS would have to be able to transmit or receive over 125MegaBytes per second.
So if the NAS uses standard hard drive, 125MegaBytes is your theoretical maximum, best case scenerio transfer.
Now it would need to be in a form of RAID that can actually transfer more than 125MegaBytes per second AND have the supporting SATA interface.
There are quite a few variables and I am stopping at just this one.

If you are not direct connecting to another piece of 10Gbit hardware, now you need a networking switch with 10Gbit, these can start getting quite expensive depending on how many ports of 10GBit you want.

Most equipment, is set for normal Gigabit and going beyond that, you are in a more niche area and would be investing in to that niche area specifically.
So purchasing a "thing" with Thunderbolt 3 does not automatically mean that "thing" is now as quick as Thunderbolt 3 advertises, the same with USB-3, 10Gbit, WiFi 6, etc and so on.

If you have 2 items with 10Gbit, then you may not be spending to much extra cash for what most of the time is a minimal real world speed increase.
If you have 3+ items with 10Gbit, now you are stepping in to a different realm of expenses and experience.


I am one that will never use the term future proof because it isn't accurate at all in most cases, for me. You analyze the cost of whatever a thing costs, ask yourself the question, do I want to pay this amount of money for this thing? Yes or No, then do.
Because at the end of the day, you had to put in an amount of your time to earn the cash to be able to purchase something, so on any purchase, is the cost of this thing worth the amount of energy and time it takes me to buy this particular thing.

 

[MacRS4]

Ha, well, yes. Being a bit old school that used to confuse me too. There is a difference now between say 1000 bytes and 1024 bytes. One is more correct (in my head, don't hurt me ) but you just need to know which is being referred to.

Add in some 'real world' figures and it gets a bit messy. I tend to get about 105-110MB/s over 1Gbe for example.

 

[nicho]

Isn't it incorrect? 10Gbit = 1.25Gbyte (10x8) no?
1Gbit is the 125mbs.

Or am I not remembering my IT correctly?
1byte=8bits?

It is correct (but so are you - you’ve just missed the point they were illustrating)

If the receiving NAS can only do 125MB/s then 10GbE won’t be any faster than a 1Gb connection would.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Use the money you would have spent on an upgrade you don’t need and probably won’t ever need or see substantive use from, and spend the money on something your wife would like.

 

[sco]

Couple of gotchas to watch out for. Most the Mac kit i've got with 10Gbe native ports - iMac Pro, Mac Mini - they don't seem to work particularly well directly connected. I found the connectivity unreliable unless I put a switch in the middle. I've also find the iMac Pro especially to be a bit fussy with 10Gbe switches. The Netgear i have has been rock-solid.

Thanks for sharing that. Will be interesting to see how the 2020 model goes. I'm currently connecting my iMac 2017 via Akitio dock (with 10Gbe) to an Intel 10Gbe chipset card in a server directly and that works well. Will be trying the same with my 2020 when it arrives.

Watched your 2019 iMac review too - nice - thanks again. Looking forward to your 2020 one.

 

[HDFan]

Synology, which has dragged its feet on 10 Gbe as opposed to QNAP, has just announced (their first?) unit with native 10 Gbe support - the expensive DS1621xs. The migration to higher speeds continues.

 

[nicho]

Synology, which has dragged its feet on 10 Gbe as opposed to QNAP, has just announced (their first?) unit with native 10 Gbe support - the expensive DS1621xs. The migration to higher speeds continues.

Don't think that's correct (have you moved your interest on to being an SSDFan of late? 😉)

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[BeatCrazy]

As above, the most obvious benefit of 10 GbE is connecting to a NAS, or if you have multiple devices with heavy network traffic (such as backups or file transfers) on the same network.

I have several NAS RAID units which I populate with terabytes of data. My 1 Gbe Synology transfers at a maximum of about 105/106 GB/s W/R while my 10 Gbe QNAP goes up to 227/576 MB/s W/R. It takes days to populate the units, but the 10 Gbe QNAP does it in 1/2 the time. If you have multiple machines running backups then this can be a justification.

Had a number of issues where my iMac Pro didn't play well with 10 Gbe switches. Spent a lot of time on support calls with Apple, QNAP and Synology. Finally determined that the problem was my 10 Gbe switch. The 3rd one I got, a Netgear, finally worked using RJ45 connectors and Cat 6 cables (short distances).

There are 10 Gbe adapters so if you have enough thunderbolt ports then you have an option if you need it later. Otherwise you are out of luck.

As to the future, NAS vendors are clearly moving toward higher network bandwidth. QNAP has offered 10 Gbe units for years. Synology only offers a 10 Gbe add-on card, but their most recent release has 4 ethernet ports so they also recognize that 1 Gbe is starting to show its limitations.

Funny that I came across your post. Earlier today I bought a Netgear M5300-28G3 10Gbps network switch and will be using with my iMac Pro. Which model Netgear do you have?

Couple of gotchas to watch out for. Most the Mac kit i've got with 10Gbe native ports - iMac Pro, Mac Mini - they don't seem to work particularly well directly connected. I found the connectivity unreliable unless I put a switch in the middle. I've also find the iMac Pro especially to be a bit fussy with 10Gbe switches. The Netgear i have has been rock-solid.

Which Netgear are you running?

 

[MacRS4]

It's a XS716T I think. Borrowed it 'for testing' from work

 

[BeatCrazy]

I have a 10Gbps Switch (Mikrotik CRS309). I have three servers ($200 used Xeon E3 from eBay) and two operate as NAS and one as a backup box. The NAS also runs a VPN'd torrent box. All of my Xeon E3s have $20 Mellanox 10Gbps NICs that installed.

I also have a couple of Xeon-based workstations that I’d like to get cheap 10Gbps NICs for. I’d prefer 10Base-T/copper RJ-45, but I’m not seeing any Mellanox deals on eBay or elsewhere. If you’re using copper, can you share the model number and/or where you found them so cheap?

 

[profcutter]

Our college had a video editing lab, one mistake after another. Bought the first line of iMacs where retina was available, but bought the lo res screens. Had to replace with machines capable of 4k. Then set up 2 different SANs, first was thunderbolt, it was a disaster, kept disconnecting and losing files. Then went to Ethernet. If you’re in an active lab situation, having adaptors hanging off the back of your machines, with no locking connectors, is an accident waiting to happen, and it often did. Here’s hoping this time they just get iMacs with the 10gE connectors, and the pop-outs will become a thing of the past.

 

[Archerious]

I also have a couple of Xeon-based workstations that I’d like to get cheap 10Gbps NICs for. I’d prefer 10Base-T/copper RJ-45, but I’m not seeing any Mellanox deals on eBay or elsewhere. If you’re using copper, can you share the model number and/or where you found them so cheap?

I'm using Mellanox connectx sfp+ then with $20-$40 adapters to go from SFP+ to 10GBase-T.

As 10GBase-T copper switches are quite pricey compared to SFP+ 10Gbps switches.