Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

DaveEcc

macrumors regular
Oct 17, 2022
206
362
Ottawa, ON, Canada
D'oh. TIL. I didn't see that they bundled the improved GPU w/ the storage upgrade too... so yeah, if you want both, you're forced to overpay for one of them. I figured the bundling was due to the RAM being on the CPU package, and wanting to limit the combos they need to stock... also tying it with storage is a bit odd.
 

Macky-Mac

macrumors 68040
May 18, 2004
3,685
2,769
my guess is that Apple will move to increase base RAM as AI features become more widely offered in consumer oriented photography apps
 
  • Like
Reactions: Geekett

myphotoyear

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 3, 2022
12
7
So we seem to have some sort of answer, not surprisingly, 8GB is fine for Apple AI-infused platforms, MS asked the same question and came up with 16GB instead for their Copilot+ PCs, including the requirement to support 40+ on-device AI models that power some of its new features. Maybe Apple is just doing it better?

Apple Intelligence will support iPhone 15 Pro & Pro Max, and iPad and Mac with M1 and later. 8GB for the win! Apple is using a 3B parameters foundation SLM model amongst other things, that can add expertise dynamically depending on the task via adapters and switch them out as required, whether it's for summarizing, prioritizing, mail replies, refining or something like that. Built with a "range of innovative techniques to optimize them on-device" and can offer " a generation rate of 30 tokens per second" on iPhone 15 Pro which seems pretty fast. Apple says these models outperform larger models while being highly efficient.

You'd still want the next MBA to have 12GB as standard and MBP with 16GB as these features get more ambitious but that's what hybrid AI is for I suppose, just hand it over to the cloud or other providers, Chat-GPT4o etc. when more capabilities are needed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bluecoast

Torty

macrumors 65816
Oct 16, 2013
1,236
945
Come on, folks.

“640K ought to be enough for anybody.”

Attributed to Bill Gates, but see:

640k back then is comparable to today’s 640GB.
 

redheeler

macrumors G3
Oct 17, 2014
8,583
9,180
Colorado, USA
If the on-device AI stuff is as memory-intensive as everyone says, maybe that’ll result in some changes. Or maybe Apple just likes suffering and that’s why 4K iMacs were sold for years with 5400 RPM HDDs.
 

johannnn

macrumors 68020
Nov 20, 2009
2,313
2,599
Sweden
My two cents:

- I’m fine with another generation of MBA with 8GB. It’s enough for most customers that might use a few Safari browsers, a Word document, and maybe Spotify playing in the background.

- When people pick the higher tier MBA with more cores, it should also come with more RAM. People that pick a higher tier laptop expect fewer bottlenecks, and the RAM is definitely the bottleneck.

- All MBP models should definitely come with 16GB RAM minimum. The higher tier models should come with 24GB RAM.
 

dumastudetto

macrumors 603
Aug 28, 2013
5,529
8,310
Los Angeles, USA
If the on-device AI stuff is as memory-intensive as everyone says, maybe that’ll result in some changes. Or maybe Apple just likes suffering and that’s why 4K iMacs were sold for years with 5400 RPM HDDs.

Seems like 8GB is the minimum for iPads and macOS devices. Nothing below 8GB RAM is getting AI across iPhones and iPads.

8GB still works as the baseline, then.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,978
8,390
D'oh. TIL. I didn't see that they bundled the improved GPU w/ the storage upgrade too... so yeah, if you want both, you're forced to overpay for one of them. I figured the bundling was due to the RAM being on the CPU package, and wanting to limit the combos they need to stock... also tying it with storage is a bit odd.
Bear in mind that with everything soldered-in it's unlikely they really "build to order" - at least for the popular models - more likely they'll just try to anticipate the demand and build an appropriate number of each configuration in advance. Anything that cuts down the number of permutations will help - hence most upgrades to the base MBA just lead to one of the higher stock configurations.

MS asked the same question and came up with 16GB instead for their Copilot+ PCs, including the requirement to support 40+ on-device AI models that power some of its new features. Maybe Apple is just doing it better?

Apple will promote what they make and dismiss what they don't make. Remember, styluses were pointless (heh!) until Apple made a stylus, large-screen phones were useless until Apple made large screen phones... Apple will be defending 8GB base models until they move to 12GB or 16GB. 12GB is what you get if you mount two 6GB chips on a M4 but - coincidentally - I'm sure that will be the "perfect" memory size for Apple's AI. As far as MS were concerned, 16GB was already becoming standard on premium Windows laptops, so it made sense to recommend 16GB. These are all systems with virtual memory, so it's all based on a subjective decision about what level of performance is "acceptable".

“640K ought to be enough for anybody.”
Off topic, but: whoever said it, the issue at the time was that although the 8088 processor could address a whopping 1MB (!!!) of contiguous memory, an arbitrary decision in the design of the original IBM PC limited that to 640K - other 8088 or 8086 systems at the time (before everything turned into a PC clone) offered the full 1MB. So, it was quite a short-term, product lifetime thing, although the meme has come to symbolise a failure to anticipate todays gigabyte-scale memories.

- I’m fine with another generation of MBA with 8GB. It’s enough for most customers that might use a few Safari browsers, a Word document, and maybe Spotify playing in the background.

Well, on past performance the next "entry level" $999 Mac, when the M4 comes out, will likely be the current-model M3 Air - or even the M2 still - starting at 8GB/256GB. So that's kinda moot. What counts is what the actual new models get - particularly (as you say) the MacBook "Pro" models which can't really claim the "basic needs" defense.

Nobody needs 16GB as standard.
...but nobody will be inconvenienced by having 16GB unless Apple continue to pretend that adding 8GB of RAM costs $200.

Apple have explained quite accurately that Apple RAM is effectively double Windows RAM.
To use a famous misquote: "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?"

Sorry, folks, but 1GB of data occupies 1GB whether it's on a PC or a Mac. Now, MacOS may be more efficient than Windows at any particular workflow, but "double" is an extraordinary claim without any extraordinary evidence to back it up. Esp. when one of the contenders is now Qualcomm's new ARM-based system-on-a-chip with integrated GPU, NPU and video processor, sharing system RAM...

Anyway, what's the point of RAM efficiency in a world where RAM is cheap (unless it comes with an Apple logo) and not worth skimping on? Maybe Windows needs twice as much RAM - well, guess what, it gets twice as much RAM for the same price both in terms of base spec and maximum capacity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Biro

EnderTW

macrumors 6502a
Jun 30, 2007
727
279
I believe so. Xcode 16 the inline code completion requires 16gb which makes sense these code models take 6-8gb of vram on it's own to run successfully.
 

0423MAC

macrumors 6502
Jun 30, 2020
479
622
Maybe for the Pro models, but Apple will likely continue to keep the Air, Mac mini and iMac starting with 8GB RAM until it becomes completely unbearable for the average user to have anything more than a YouTube video playing.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,649
12,570
Maybe for the Pro models, but Apple will likely continue to keep the Air, Mac mini and iMac starting with 8GB RAM until it becomes completely unbearable for the average user to have anything more than a YouTube video playing.
I was originally thinking 2025-2026, but now I'm pretty convinced 12 GB base will come by 2025. That likely means M4 series Macs.
 

0423MAC

macrumors 6502
Jun 30, 2020
479
622
I was originally thinking 2025-2026, but now I'm pretty convinced 12 GB base will come by 2025. That likely means M4 series Macs.
12GB feels odd for a starting point on a Mac, but I would like to see it. Strange RAM options have been around for years since Intel was dumped.

Maybe with a small price bump to go along with it and the 12GB RAM will be the justification to do so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bluecoast

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,649
12,570
12GB feels odd for a Mac, but I would like to see it.

Maybe with a small price bump to go along with it and the 12GB RAM will be the justification to do so.
12 GB was odd in the past because the chip configurations used were 2x2 GB or 2x4 GB or 2x8 GB. However, these days common sizes of chips include 3 GB and 6 GB as well. That why the new MacBook Pros are 18 GB. They use 3x6 GB. It should be noted that at least some of the M4 iPad Pros appear to have 12 GB RAM (2x6 GB), but with 4 GB deactivated.

I would hope there is NOT a price bump with the shift to 12 GB RAM in new Macs, considering that 8 GB has been the base for almost a decade now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Howard2k

Howard2k

macrumors 603
Mar 10, 2016
5,671
5,586
12 GB was odd in the past because the chip configurations used were 2x2 GB or 2x4 GB or 2x8 GB. However, these days common sizes of chips include 3 GB and 6 GB as well. That why the new MacBook Pros are 18 GB. They use 3x6 GB. It should be noted that at least some of the M4 iPad Pros appear to have 12 GB RAM (2x6 GB), but with 4 GB deactivated.

I would hope there is NOT a price bump with the shift to 12 GB RAM in new Macs, considering that 8 GB has been the base for almost a decade now.


Agreed.

Dramatics aside, 8GB for the Air (with a price reduction :)), 16GB for the Pro - it's time.
 

jdoyle

macrumors 6502
Jul 29, 2004
324
563
I upgraded a few months ago and choose an 15in M2 MacBook Air 1 TB SSD refurb over a brand new M3 Air with 8gb Ram and 512Gb SSD. I haven't had less than 16Gb ram for years on a Mac. 8GB silicon is not the same as 16GB on Intel. It's been proven. The OS is very efficient at using that 8GB and paging to SSD but it puts strain on the SSD and overall performance is affected. Now with Ai on device which is Ram hungry I bet it be noticeable. I hope they just make 16GB the standard and be done with it.
 

neo_cs193p

macrumors regular
May 17, 2016
242
291

Apple just managed to make all the M3 MBP base models obsolete.

They literate sell Pro base models that can't even use machine learning tools released this fall.
Completely agree.
And they just started marketing the M3 Air as the best AI consumer laptop in the world.
Except don't get the bad one... Or the other bad one...
 

Jim Lahey

macrumors 68030
Apr 8, 2014
2,733
5,664
Ebenezer Cook will probably come up with iCloudRAM as part of an iCloud++ subscription before offering 16GB base.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: avro707

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,247
1,628
Honestly, so many of these threads about 8 or 16 gigs is just whining. Most people don’t need more than 8 gigs….Apple knows this. If you want more, pay up.
Back in the day nobody needed more than 4gigs as well…

Maybe it’s time to roll back to 4gigs, claim more efficiency then force a greater amount of people to pay up.


Or a better idea, just have 16gb included but charge subscription pricing per month to activate the extra 8GB, or offer a yearly discount fee to use it.

Or alternatively pay extra to have 16gb out of the box. ;)

Ebenezer Cook will probably come up with iCloudRAM as part of an iCloud++ subscription before offering 16GB base.

You are as cynical as I am! :D

I have 16gb in my MB Air. 1TB storage as well.
 

bluecoast

macrumors 68020
Nov 7, 2017
2,256
2,673
I think that 8GB is enough for most people...

But that gen-AI changes this.

I think that the M4 MBA base spec will come with 12GB (still 256 GB SDD though - hey, this is Apple).

I'll be interested to know Apple's marketing around this if it happens.

Probably they'll say that the extra NPU size in the 4 will be advertised as to needing more of RAM to increase the 'blazingly fast' speed of AI operations etc. etc.

Apple being Apple, it likely won't be too long before their latest AI features will require at least 12GB of RAM - probably as early as next year's OS upgrade.

Perhaps we'll see 'enhanced faster more accurate models' needing that, whilst the original models will be OK with 8GB (and will still run).

So for me, this would be the key reason to get 16GB rather than the argument of 'You need 16GB to run MS Office, Chrome etc.' (most people, I contend, do not).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Howard2k

geta

macrumors 68000
May 18, 2010
1,588
1,386
The Moon
I think that 8GB is enough for most people...

But that gen-AI changes this.

I think that the M4 MBA base spec will come with 12GB (still 256 GB SDD though - hey, this is Apple).

I'll be interested to know Apple's marketing around this if it happens.

Probably they'll say that the extra NPU size in the 4 will be advertised as to needing more of RAM to increase the 'blazingly fast' speed of AI operations etc. etc.

Apple being Apple, it likely won't be too long before their latest AI features will require at least 12GB of RAM - probably as early as next year's OS upgrade.

Perhaps we'll see 'enhanced faster more accurate models' needing that, whilst the original models will be OK with 8GB (and will still run).

So for me, this would be the key reason to get 16GB rather than the argument of 'You need 16GB to run MS Office, Chrome etc.' (most people, I contend, do not).

12GB RAM for the base MBA would be nice, but being Apple, they'll keep milking 8GB for as long as they can.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.