17" MacBookPro C2D Colour Banding Problem / LCD Quality Observations / OSX Users

[iW00t]

I downloaded the LCDtest, and used the gradient test... I found that I did see some lines where there were color transitions, but it was not as severe as what the OP is experiencing. Does this mean my model is also affected? I'm definitely experiencing a grainy screen...


PS In case anyone was wondering, I am using a 15" C2D MBP (9C 57)

Yep. Email Steve!

 

[azzurri000]

Yep. Email Steve!

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate the quick response

 

[stoise]

has anyone received a decent replacement yet?

 

[azzurri000]

has anyone received a decent replacement yet?

I got another replacement today... it's better than my 1st replacement, but not perfect... 9c60

 

[geehk]

has anyone received a decent replacement yet?

I spoke to my honest and helpful reseller today, they have been aware of the MBP C2D LCD problems and they said there were no real improvements with their most recent stock - I'll have to keep waiting and hoping Apple sort this issue out for good...

Apples own forum still shows no fixes or suggestions for the Color Banding problems either. Poor show! Too busy selling iPods for Christmas maybe

 

[tarjan]

Guys and Gals, with the current 15.4" and 17" lcd panels available today there is *NO* way to "fix" the problem you are seeing. The banding is simply due to the panels being 6bit+dither, and not true 8bit panels. They are only capable of producing 262k colors and the colors in between it "fudges" a bit causing the banding. Dithering reduces the obviousness of the banding, but it cannot completely remove it. Turn the computer down to thousands of colors and the reproduction MIGHT be a bit better depending on what generated the colors in the first place, but not that much as then you are leaving the dithering up to your computer. There are simply no portable versions of the screens we use that have the proper bit depth, though there are plenty of fixed versions that require more power and are much heavier.

Apple needs to get CM to produce a real 16 mil color screen with full 8bit and no dithering to fully solve the issue that you see. Of course my preference is that they would switch to the new "deep color" standard that is coming with blue ray and HD for 10bit colors. I give it a 5% chance on that... (preferrably in 1920x1200 or greater resolution in a 15.4 in screen with resolution independance! Oh and 20k:1 contrast ratios like my crt projector...)

10 bit - 1,073,741,824 colors.
8 bit - 16m
6 bit - 262144

6bit + dither is STILL 6 bit

 

[PDE]

Guys and Gals, with the current 15.4" and 17" lcd panels available today there is *NO* way to "fix" the problem you are seeing. The banding is simply due to the panels being 6bit+dither, and not true 8bit panels. They are only capable of producing 262k colors and the colors in between it "fudges" a bit causing the banding. Dithering reduces the obviousness of the banding, but it cannot completely remove it. Turn the computer down to thousands of colors and the reproduction MIGHT be a bit better depending on what generated the colors in the first place, but not that much as then you are leaving the dithering up to your computer. There are simply no portable versions of the screens we use that have the proper bit depth, though there are plenty of fixed versions that require more power and are much heavier.

Apple needs to get CM to produce a real 16 mil color screen with full 8bit and no dithering to fully solve the issue that you see. Of course my preference is that they would switch to the new "deep color" standard that is coming with blue ray and HD for 10bit colors. I give it a 5% chance on that... (preferrably in 1920x1200 or greater resolution in a 15.4 in screen with resolution independance! Oh and 20k:1 contrast ratios like my crt projector...)

10 bit - 1,073,741,824 colors.
8 bit - 16m
6 bit - 262144

6bit + dither is STILL 6 bit

My mother's powerbook G4 and all my previous powerbook G4s and G3s were capable of displaying gradients perfectly. Why would apple choose a display that can't do that now? I can't believe they would be so stupid as to deliberately choose a poor quality 6 bit display for a professional notebook? It would be too counter productive given the requirements of professionals....

 

[binjured]

You know, I almost wish I hadn't found threads like this one. My MBP C2D 17" just shipped today (got word last night) and I figured I would go online and look for instances of dead pixels because I have always considered a display with dead pixels to be DOA and always return them. I didn't expect to stumble upon something like this. I also can't believe that Apple is using such sub-standard LCDs in a machine that costs nearly $3000. At any rate, as a service member who is being deployed to the Middle East very soon (try not long after New Years) I don't really have the luxury of playing the trading game with Apple for two months, not to mention it will be my only computer for about a year and a half.

My MBP is a week 51. I will report back here as soon as it arrives with the results of the tests, it should be here the 28th. I'm crossing my fingers big time on this one.

Edit: And it's coming from the factory in Shanghai, if anybody cares to know that.

 

[iW00t]

My mother's powerbook G4 and all my previous powerbook G4s and G3s were capable of displaying gradients perfectly. Why would apple choose a display that can't do that now? I can't believe they would be so stupid as to deliberately choose a poor quality 6 bit display for a professional notebook? It would be too counter productive given the requirements of professionals....

The really big irony is Macs are supposedly targeted towards content creation professionals, the profession that of all people, actually needs to have a good display.

 

[binjured]

As promised, here are my MBP stats and findings:

Specs
- MBP 17" C2D
- Week 51 build
- Shipped from Shanghai
- LCD: 00009C61

Pixels
0 dead/stuck

Backlight
Even without any dark lines, spotting, etc. There is a small, bright band along the bottom of the screen (bleed) that is barely visible, especially on dark backgrounds.

Color Banding
There is some color banding with the default color profile, though not to the extent seen in the screenshot in the first post. When using the Adobe RGB (1998) profile the banding is no longer visible.

Grain
I don't see any visible grain to the screen, and I drug one of the gradients around in Preview which was suggested would make it "very obvious" and I saw nothing out of place. DVDs also appear fine.

Overall
Could the display be better? Yes. The fact that it's 6bit rather than 8bit alone makes it sub-par for many professionals. However, it is not terrible and for general use, including most "average" graphic design, I believe it is acceptable. Perhaps not for a $3000 machine, but generally acceptable at least. At least that's what I'm telling myself, and I'm sticking to it

 

[spookje]

May I ask what you people mean with the banding? Do you mean the line which is visible in the gradient? I mean the 'dark' blue line and green line? I mean the solid colours between/in the gradients? (banding)

Or are do you people mean with banding the stratified of the gradient in the above mentioned image? If so, I have to say I don't see that effect only the above one.

 

[e12a]

grain is subjective, or just "normal". I've seen my friend's mom's dell precision 17" with the same grain than my 15. Hers is matte.

 

[oldwatery]

The fact that it's 6bit rather than 8bit alone makes it sub-par for many professionals. However, it is not terrible and for general use, including most "average" graphic design, I believe it is acceptable. Perhaps not for a $3000 machine, but generally acceptable at least. At least that's what I'm telling myself, and I'm sticking to it

Who says it's 6 bit?
and if it is how can it possibly be OK for a $3000 machine

 

[tarjan]

Who says it's 6 bit?
and if it is how can it possibly be OK for a $3000 machine

Check the specs for the actual LCD panels. ALL of them in the 15.4 and 17" range used by apple are 6bit +2 dither. Basically means it is a 6 bit panel.

Now, why didn't you see them before? Easy, your screen was not as bright. The new screens are 2-3x as bright as the old ones. That would mean the colors were "closer" together before.

For the next part, keep in mind that each color being reproduced has values of 0 (black) to 255 (full), with the number indicating the brightness of color.

Say we are trying to produce red with a value of 200, right next to a red of 201 and a red of 199 to show a gradient in color change. In the old days, say 3 years ago , we would talk about contrast ratios being in the 150-200:1 range, at best. Today we might be in the 500-600:1 range. So a value of 0 is blacker (though not black as lcd cannot produce "black"), and a value of 255 is brighter (3+x) than it ever was. Problem is the gradients between 0 and 255 haven't changed.

This means a red at 199, 200 and 201 were MUCH closer together in overall color rendition back on the old powerbooks than they are on our monitors.


Of course, those of you who are really astute would notice I am using 8 bit numbers, which our monitors DON'T use directly. 8bit equals a color palate of 16 million colors. We actually have 6 bit monitors, which means there are ONLY 64 of each color type available. Technically 199 200 and 201 might (depending on the boundaries of colors) produce the exact same red, but they would influence the dots around them to dither the colors, trying to make them look more appropriate.

True 8 bit lcd panels are more fragile than 6 bit panels, take more power, and are, in general, thicker. Thats why we dont have them, yet, but it should be a drop in replacement one day. Of course at that point we will probably have moved on to OLEDs or brighthouse(sp?) versions which can produce colors (in theory) much much closer to black than a regular lcd panel. Black is the holy grail of lcd...

 

[SmokyD]

6-bit or 8-bit screens?

tarjan or anyone else:

Precisely where can I verify the technical details for the 00009C60/61/62 displays?

I have looked and looked but I have not been able to locate who makes the screens based on the model numbers, and Apple won't tell me (I've called them twice and emailed them once).

Nobody at Apple seems to know. How could that be possible?

I'd appreciate if anyone can provide a link that will verify the manufacturing and technical info for these MBP screens, especially regarding the 6-bit vs 8-bit issue.

I bought my MBP last week based on the 'support for millions of colors' statement on the Apple website. After getting the computer I was disappointed with both the color reproduction and contrast (in addition to other problems) which leads me to believe that the screens are indeed 6-bit.

 

[iW00t]

tarjan or anyone else:

Precisely where can I verify the technical details for the 00009C60/61/62 displays?

I have looked and looked but I have not been able to locate who makes the screens based on the model numbers, and Apple won't tell me (I've called them twice and emailed them once).

Nobody at Apple seems to know. How could that be possible?

I'd appreciate if anyone can provide a link that will verify the manufacturing and technical info for these MBP screens, especially regarding the 6-bit vs 8-bit issue.

I bought my MBP last week based on the 'support for millions of colors' statement on the Apple website. After getting the computer I was disappointed with both the color reproduction and contrast (in addition to other problems) which leads me to believe that the screens are indeed 6-bit.

You can install Windows XP using Bootcamp, and check out the link in my sig for more instructions on using the inferior OS to find out the make of the LCD panel in your system.

Even if you ultimately find out, so what?

They are "within specs", Apple is not going to do anything about it. That's probably why all these threads have died down recently. Everyone with affected machines just realised this and gave up.

 

[tarjan]

There are a number of screens in use. Follow iwoot's instructions and get the manufacturer and model. Then search for that. What you will find is that ALL of those screens are 6bit screens.

Very very good 6bit screens, but..

 

[SmokyD]

specs

Thanks for the replies so far. Unfortunately I don't have WinXP available (and my machine is new, which I might return tomorrow) so I can't try the suggested method.

I have the 00009C61 panel, which I'm most interested in knowing about.

It will actually be useful to know more about this screen, for a couple of reasons:

1. The screen on my MBP is defective (moderate vignetting in all four corners/poor lighting on the right side/two dead pixels/backlight leaking/some banding). I will either get a new MBP or lose my portability and get the 24 inch iMac, which has a vastly superior screen. Not my first choice, but as a photographer I prefer a screen that can really render 16.7 million colors.

2. I thought the MBP screen could actually do that (render the 16.7 million rather than 16.2 million simulated with dithering). I find Apple's information about the MBP a little misleading as a result.

But before I get too worked up about it though, I'd like to verify just what the screen capability is. I believe that what I've read on this forum is correct, but official specs of some would be better.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

 

[iW00t]

I suppose the nature of the beast (ie: mobility, battery operated device) means that we can't have a display that displays millions of colours, have a reasonable cost, and still have good battery life, and thus Apple's engineers decided to put in this 262K colour LCD panels instead.

Vignetting in the corners is actually quite normal, what happens is the invertors driving the backlight needs a while to warm up, so it takes 30 minutes for the panel to reach their maximum brightness. Until then the sides and corners does appear a bit dim.

I'd expect better from Apple but at the end of the day there are probably a lot more crappy laptops out in the market that costs in the same ballpark as the MBP, so I guess we should count our blessings and not be overly demanding of Apple

 

[SmokyD]

the question remains

I suppose the nature of the beast (ie: mobility, battery operated device) means that we can't have a display that displays millions of colours, have a reasonable cost, and still have good battery life, and thus Apple's engineers decided to put in this 262K colour LCD panels instead.

Vignetting in the corners is actually quite normal, what happens is the invertors driving the backlight needs a while to warm up, so it takes 30 minutes for the panel to reach their maximum brightness. Until then the sides and corners does appear a bit dim.

I'd expect better from Apple but at the end of the day there are probably a lot more crappy laptops out in the market that costs in the same ballpark as the MBP, so I guess we should count our blessings and not be overly demanding of Apple

Sorry iW00t gotta disagree with you here. Apple's top-end notebook should have a top-end screen. In any case, the specs on every other Apple screen are easily available on the apple.com site or from mactracker (all cinema displays and iMacs have published color rendition and contrast ratio/brightness specifications). The only specs Apple is hiding are for the notebook screens. A little odd ain't it?

Instead they say 'support for millions of colors'. A nice time to use 'Applespeak'.

Anyway, I chose the macbook pro over the imac because the screen was mis-advertised. Anyone else out there who cares about color fidelity might be making the same decision. It would be quite useful for anyone who cares about the quality of the screen they get to know exactly what they are getting.

So, does ANYONE know: are the MBP screens 6-bit or 8-bit?

 

[Mac'Mo]

weirdd

 

[geehk]

Great! There's an iPhone in 5 months time but still no solution to the MacBookPro display issues. Come on Apple, supply some excellent laptop displays like some of those stunning Vaios as an apology to your loyal customers. I was expecting more from the last Keynote presentation than a prototype PDA Phone with a new OS.

Most new buyer are still complaining of grain, color banding and uneven lighting on all models of Macbook Pro - it's been months of the same problems - totally unacceptable when the issues are so obvious. I am not going to buy until these issues are solved.

I think it is very obvious that Apple has changed it's focus and priorities to iPod and iPhone - the laptops are now the poor cousin - what a pity. Sure the processors are faster, but Apple don't design these do they! They do, however, have the choice to select top quality components and push the LCD manufacturers to supply the best possible displays for their discerning customers. I'd be happy to pay a few more dollars for a screen worth looking at.

 

[PDE]

Most new buyer are still complaining of grain, color banding and uneven lighting on all models of Macbook Pro - it's been months of the same problems - totally unacceptable when the issues are so obvious. I am not going to buy until these issues are solved.

I think it is very obvious that Apple has changed it's focus and priorities to iPod and iPhone - the laptops are now the poor cousin - what a pity. Sure the processors are faster, but Apple don't design these do they! They do, however, have the choice to select top quality components and push the LCD manufacturers to supply the best possible displays for their discerning customers. I'd be happy to pay a few more dollars for a screen worth looking at.

Yeah, they don't seem to care much about the quality of their laptops anymore. These displays are really a mess-up for apple. I walked into a random computer store in Sweden last week and took a close look at their PC laptops ranging from $500 to $2000. Even the cheapest models had better displays than the MBPs: just as bright but with even illumination and no grain and whites that were pure white. I wasn't able to test gradietns though. How embarrassing for Apple! And how disappointing for MBP buyers. I'm very happy with my 17" MBP except the display is unevenly illuminated with the right side being quite substantially brighter than the left. THe display is, however, a LOT nicer than the 15" ones and ACCEPTABLE for casual use. I'm hoping Apple will change vendor so I can have the display exchanged....

 

[oldwatery]

has anyone received a decent replacement yet?

No

I am on machine number 3 and it is the worst one yet.
Bad banding, uneven illumination, and terrible viewing angle.
I wrote to Mr Jobs and have since been in contact with a very helpful and embarassed Apple representative for over 4 weeks now.

Last time we spoke I was told to wait until after MW for some reason.

The 3rd machine was supposed to have gone through technical services for a full QC check but when I received it it was a new unopened box.
I called to complain and was told that they were not QC'ing any more machines before shipping as they did not have the infrastructure in place.
This is completely opposite to what the original Tech manager told me after the second unit was returned to engineering.

I know Apple are fully aware of the problem and I believe they have decided there is no point in cherry picking replacements as ALL the units are the same.

Just to add insult to injury my 17" MPB has a very bad Airport problem.....keeps loosing connection and requires a full reboot to connect. I have 4 other Macs and they all perform perfectly sitting right next to the "Dog".

Also there is a track-pad problem. After any keyboard action the track pad does not respond for 1-2 seconds. It is very annoying and really screws up your work flow if you use keyboard short cuts often.

I am forced to say that in over 20 years of heavy computer use and purchases this is the worst I have ever had.

I'm beginning to see why they are no longer called Apple Computer Inc.

 

[Leeds]

So basically, what I'm getting from this thread is:

Being a Photographer, and having a good eye... Don't buy a Macbook Pro?

I've been saving/waiting for months to get one now, and then I came upon this thread :\ Now I'm a bit disappointed lol