Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Exactly in his first post in this discussion.

^^Wow that's some 'perfectly valid' argument there... :rolleyes:

Too bad you weren't replying to his first post in this discussion when you made that statement. You were replying to the post where he very succinctly and accurately pointed out that Apple is falsely advertising the new nVidia 8800 and offered four points to back it up.

Now you can continue with your quest to show the world how anti social I am while continuously avoiding real performance numbers.

No one needs me to point out your impolite behavior. Its on open display in nearly every post you make.
 
No one needs me to point out your impolite behavior. Its on open display in nearly every post you make.

I agree ...
It seems to be impossible to discuss the original thread ...
D4F....what are your intentions? you want to kick the discussion all the way? or you want to explain yourself that you made the correct decision with your 8800?
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

sfroom said:
I think it's time we got back to the topic at hand in this thread. Following the barefeats benchmark, I'm sure there are a lot of people googling this topic. Let's try to preserve the integrity of the macrumors community, and provide some useful information to those who might be seeking it.

While I don't agree with the tone in which much of the information was presented, I think we have to acknowledge the useful information that D4F has provided; Namely, that his 3.06 iMac w/ 8800 GS is performing very well in applications which make use of OpenGL. This leads him to suggest that the 8800 GS option on the iMac should be seriously considered, not only just by gamers, but also users who rely on OpenGL.

Likewise, many have suggested that poor performance in Core Image/Core Animation/Core Video applications might be related to immature video card drivers. Most agree that the driver will be updated by Apple, but some disagree as to the timeline (some posters have pointed to issues with video cards in the past, and the length of time Apple took to resolve those issues).

However, I think it is fairly conclusive that the card's general performance will improve, seeing as the performance does not currently represent the physical capabilities of the card.

Judging from the posts that have been made so far, unless new information is presented, all that remains to be discussed is if the probability/possibility of a fix from apple is enough to justify the purchase. In the end I think it comes down to personal preference.

My 2 cents: I am treating the issue as I do the prospect of an update to the product line. Wait if you can, buy if you can't wait. I would highly recommend that anyone purchasing a 24" iMac seriously consider the 8800 GS, unless a) Your use of the computer requires the absolute fastest performance from day 1, and you don't rely heavily on OpenGL, or b) You'd rather save the money, and don't mind sacrificing the potential performance benefits (and/or potential resale value).

thanks for your post. Very helpful and well said. I think the issue is pretty well covered at this point. Too bad the thread is once again degenerating.
 
Too bad you weren't replying to his first post in this discussion when you made that statement. You were replying to the post where he very succinctly and accurately pointed out that Apple is falsely advertising the new nVidia 8800 and offered four points to back it up.



No one needs me to point out your impolite behavior. Its on open display in nearly every post you make.

I don't get one thing here.
One post, one topic and now every reply is separate for some reason?
One you start a discussion do you follow it's original context or you jump up and down from here to there just to catch the parts that interest you?

Any reply that I made in this topic takes on general attitude and false statements that people make.
It's really not my fault that some people can't see the facts that you show them.
I'm very happy that you all like to comfort eachother in pain but no matter how you look at it you are still making false statements.
 
I agree ...
It seems to be impossible to discuss the original thread ...
D4F....what are your intentions? you want to kick the discussion all the way? or you want to explain yourself that you made the correct decision with your 8800?

I think I explained very vell about the 8800 and it's performance from my point of view but I never denied it's weakness against 2600.
You want to discuss or you want to carebear how mad you are, how Apple sucks and blah blah?? This is the question.
If people can't stand that I do not agree with them in 100% (just in %50 :D ) then what do you expect from me? Move a long and let them continue throwing false statements?
I'm showing performance numbers here and yet you all see me as attacking. Yes I'm not polite in many cases but I hate people that cry and cry and cry and cry especially that they could avoidy only if they would take a bit of time to read. And to go further here no wonder they never did read anything as even when I throw hard evidence here I am asked to behave lol.

Give me some numbers back to contradict my thoery but don't preach.
If you want a nice and smooth omg apple sucks conversation then go to windows forums.
You want hard facts then be my guest and join the discussion.
 
I'm very happy that you all like to comfort eachother in pain but no matter how you look at it you are still making false statements.

Refresh my memory, what/were was my false statement(s) exactly?

By the way, you don't have to convince all of us that you didn't make a mistake going for the nVidia 8800. You only need to convince yourself of that. :p
 
Give me some numbers back to contradict my thoery but don't preach.

If you want a nice and smooth omg apple sucks conversation then go to windows forums.

Speaking of apples you seem to be a big fan of arguing apples and oranges.

You keep posting benchmarks that show great OpenGL benchmarks for the 8800 while dismissing the half-speed Core Image results as unimportant.

You don't even want to hear at all from the people in here that say dock animations seem choppy on their 8800-powered iMacs.

Someone tells you about bad apples and you reply with "ok, but the oranges are better so who cares?"
 
Refresh my memory, what/were was my false statement(s) exactly?

By the way, you don't have to convince all of us that you didn't make a mistake going for the nVidia 8800. You only need to convince yourself of that. :p

Ok Sushi. You just proved what is your view behind all this.
All you want is to bash nVidia.

Thank you very much for clearing that out.
 
Speaking of apples you seem to be a big fan of arguing apples and oranges.

You keep posting benchmarks that show great OpenGL benchmarks for the 8800 while dismissing the half-speed Core Image results as unimportant.

You don't even want to hear at all from the people in here that say dock animations seem choppy on their 8800-powered iMacs.

Someone tells you about bad apples and you reply with "ok, but the oranges are better so who cares?"

Now you prove you can't read.
I showed the good and better side of 8800 simply to show you that 2600 is not better by all means and in certain apps the 8800 simply DOES work better.

So again, thank you very much for your contributions as you clearly stated in your previous post what are your intentions in here.
 
10.5.3 is out.
Can somebody do some testing and post it here?
I'm on the road and won't be able to give numbers till Tuesday.
 
10.5.3 is out. Hopefully we'll see some graphical improvements, although the official release notes don't seem to mention graphics drivers.

A user commented on the TUAW post re: 10.5.3 that:

"Don't know about you guys but I have a 2006 MacPro with the nVidia 8800 graphics card. Performance under iPhoto before 10.5.3 was visibly slower than it was while using the ATI 1900XT graphics card. After 10.5.3, performance in iPhoto seems a lot better. It used to stop every so often to fill up the screen with pictures as I scrolled through all of my pictures, now it just scrolls without having to stop. I hope this was one of the fixes. "

Although he's using a Mac Pro, I still think this is evidence that Apple may have / may be improving the nVidia drivers.

Report back if you have a 8800 GS iMac and have installed 10.5.3!
 
Now you prove you can't read.
I showed the good and better side of 8800 simply to show you that 2600 is not better by all means and in certain apps the 8800 simply DOES work better.

Show me the post where I said the 2600 was "better by all means".

So again, thank you very much for your contributions as you clearly stated in your previous post what are your intentions in here.

You keep repeating that like a mantra yet you still have yet to explain exactly what my "intentions" are. :p
 
You keep repeating that like a mantra yet you still have yet to explain exactly what my "intentions" are. :p

Last time as apparently you are tired and forget pretty fast.

you don't have to convince all of us that you didn't make a mistake going for the nVidia 8800. You only need to convince yourself of that.

Read that sentence and please think.
I was not convincing anybody about nothing. I was showing the good side of 8800.
As for the blue part. Just think what you wrote dude, add to the previous quote and voila. In your words: 'Nvidia sucks so stop showing numbers as I don't care cause I know better'
Why?
Cause apparently you are convinced.

10.5.3 out. Move on or do some test and post numbers for a change.
 
Read that sentence and please think.
I was not convincing anybody about nothing. I was showing the good side of 8800. As for the blue part. Just think what you wrote dude, add to the previous quote and voila. In your words: 'Nvidia sucks so stop showing numbers as I don't care cause I know better' Why? Cause apparently you are convinced.

I never said "nVidia sucks" so stop putting words in my keyboard. :p

I was convinced that the only possible motive for your endless posts saying the same basic thing over and over again was that you were trying to make yourself feel better about something or justify your own decision to get an iMac with the nVidia in spite of its reported problems.

Perhaps we can settle this now. If one buys the nVidia 8800 now they do so with the knowledge that it has issues that are yet to be ironed out. Then, even once they do it is up to the individual buyer to decide whether the added performance of the nVidia is worth the added price.

I do think Apple is falsely advertising the nVidia card until they work out the driver issues though and I called them on it.

10.5.3 out. Move on or do some test and post numbers for a change.

I have a mid-2007 24" iMac with the ATI HD2600XT. So sorry, I can't help you there. I'm looking forward to new 10.5.3 benchmarks as well.

I could be wrong about this but my personal feeling is that the problems with the nVidia 8800 will be resolved in a firmware update, not hardware. No need to flame me, this is just my personal opinion and may turn out to be entirely off base.

The ATI 2600 was causing system lockups for 3 months until they released a firmware update in November of last year.
 
DF4, you have the hardware (and I'm currently interstate), can you run some test and give us an indication as to whether the latest update has increased performance on the known poor performing apps with the 8800?
 
DF4, you have the hardware (and I'm currently interstate), can you run some test and give us an indication as to whether the latest update has increased performance on the known poor performing apps with the 8800?

I'm out doing a external project till Tuesday so no iMac for me but we have run a test with the 2600 here on 3 different Mac Pros with Cinebench 10 and the OpenGL numbers dropped from 5900-6000 to 5700-5800 on all tested machines. Not a big deal but it does make you wonder.
I really wanna know how will the 8800 perform especially that somebody did a XBENCH test (Mac OSX forums) and the numbers dropped as well.

This was only OpenGL and I can't say a thing about core image as these are business machines and I don't have many options to mess with them.
I will give some better numbers once I'm back home.
 
Just found this:
Preliminary testing says ProApps performance is up!

Barefeats test (with better system than mine in parenthesis):
Atom Strand: 14.93 (16.4)
Dotted Axis: 17.89 (30.4) !
Directions: 19.68 (21.2)
Blocks detail: 58.92 (could not fit everything in RAM, rendered 9 seconds only)
Brush Open: 25.26 [PAL], 23.99 [NTSC] (25.2)
Light Open: 39.49 (46.5)
Satin Blue Background: 31.76 (34.4)
Sketch Open: 24.5 (23.2)

Notes: Testing was very unscientific. Specs are Mac Pro 2.66 Mac OS X (10.5.3) 4 GB Ram, 8800GT, 6.66 TB + 150GB 10K RPM Raptor vs BF's "Early 2008" 16GB RAM machine. And also BF does not mention if they are using NTSC or PAL templates. Still results seem to have improved in most cases. Obviously this should have been tested against my own machine running 10.5.2, but I didn't have time to run those tests. Suffice to say it "feels" faster.
 
I'm out doing a external project till Tuesday so no iMac for me but we have run a test with the 2600 here on 3 different Mac Pros with Cinebench 10 and the OpenGL numbers dropped from 5900-6000 to 5700-5800 on all tested machines. Not a big deal but it does make you wonder.
I really wanna know how will the 8800 perform especially that somebody did a XBENCH test (Mac OSX forums) and the numbers dropped as well.

This was only OpenGL and I can't say a thing about core image as these are business machines and I don't have many options to mess with them.
I will give some better numbers once I'm back home.

Much appreciated....

Cheers,
 
Specifically, I noticed the dock magnification effect wasn't as smooth as on the 2.4, with everything set identically on both machines...

This is resolved in 10.4.3

Another thing I noticed is that entering (or exiting) the Dashboard is, more often than not, pretty choppy on the 3ghz machine. Seems most noticeable when invoking the Dashboard using the dock icon. Oddly (once again) if the keyboard or the Dashboard application icon in the applications folder is used to invoke the Dashboard, there are fewer instances of choppy entries and exits. Now matter what method is used, clicking the "x" to bring up the Dashboard bar seems ok, but when you close it, the lowering of the desktop effect is choppy pretty much 100% of the time.

This is not resolved in 10.4.3

Finally, the last thing I noticed was scrolling in Safari using the scroll bar on longer pages produces a video tearing effect, which looks kind of like a transparent line appearing in roughly the middle of the page. Using the scroll pea on the mighty mouse doesn't seem to produce the effect as often, but the scroll bar is a cinch to reproduce it. Especially noticeable on frames inside pages with scroll bars

This is also not resolved in 10.4.3. Apparently, this issue also affects current Macbook Pro owners as well, which are also Nvidia-based machines. Although I've never seen it quite this bad (with two or more lines in a page), here's a screenshot of the issue from an affected Macbook Pro owner that demonstrates the problem I've seen on my machine:

screen_corruption.jpg



So it appears the Nvidia drivers are still a work in progress.
 
Well that sucks. Thanks for the report though. D4F, does the scrolling issue happen on your iMac with the 8800?
 
Well that sucks. Thanks for the report though. D4F, does the scrolling issue happen on your iMac with the 8800?

To be honest I never noticed such scrolling distortion or it didn't appear unusuall to me.
I can't test it Till tuesday but will do as soon as I'm back.
I intend to put both systems side by side and run same applications simultaneously while recording it with my iSight and then post numbers together with it.
I just have to gather all crucial graphic issues people are experiencing and address them in the test as I do not want to edit the video. All in one run will make it pretty much straightforward.

Will post a video sometime next week.

***EDIT
Barefeats just posted this in another topic.

We at the Bare Feats lab are seeing significant speed gains in Core Image intensive apps on our iMac 3.06GHz with GeForce 8800 GS after upgrading to 10.5.3:

iMovie import and thumbnail render = 39% faster

iMaginator Core Image Morph = 19% faster

Motion 3 Template RAM Preview
Blocks - Detail.HD = 18% faster
Tech Blue - Open 2.HD = 21% faster

We'll post the detailed results on the site tomorrow morning.
 
That does suck!! But my bonus has been delayed another :mad: month so hopefully when I get it at the end of June there maybe some kind of fix on the horizon and I can get the 3.06/8800 without any worries (I'll probably get it anyway though! :D)
 
Hey guys, I don't have an iMac, but I have a ton of experience with graphics cards and high end computers so hear me out.

I don't notice the speed increase:
I think this is at your fault and not that of Apples. I could have told you the extra 260 mhrz and a new graphics card wouldn't really make your daily apps run faster. It is up to you the consumer to judge weather it will make your life easier or if the money is worth it to shave 3 seconds off of your safari or gain the extra 10 fps in games for the extra 600 bucks you shell out.

Its a driver coding / maturity issue:
Very much so. Older video cards had dedicated shaders meant for rendering different kinds of graphics. Starting with the 8xxx nvidia cards and the 2xxx ati cards, they introduced whats called Programmable Shaders. What that means is each shader can take any role instead of a dedicated one allowing for different performance between applications. It is 100% up to the drivers to control these. In fact when the 2600s came out they were a 100% flop and a let down because of the poor performing windows drivers. They couldn't compete at all in their price bracket and their only saving grace is that future drivers meant better control and better performance.

We need windows benchmarks to determine the winner:
Hands down the 8800 is the winner. I know this because my 8600s out perform ati 2600s with out a question. Here is a solid review from HardOCP. You can look other places and see the same results, but this review shows real world performance. Meaning under the best possible settings - what is the performance I am getting, and how does it look / compare against the other card. In the end of the review you can see the 8600 is a far better card allowing for better picture and performance over the 2600. If you look for 8600 vs 8800 reviews you can see there is a giant gap between them in performance. So just imagine the even larger gap between a 2600 and an 8800. http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTM2MCwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Conclusion:
For sure there are issues with both cards on both platforms. In the end high-end cards always out live middle ground cards and most of the time are worth the money. The 3 ghrz iMac with an 8800 will far out live the one with the 2600.

NOTE: I don't intend on continuing participation with this thread. The information is out there, you are just looking to hard at the apple perspective. A video card works the nearly the same on all platforms.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.