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Tordenver

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Original poster
Apr 21, 2020
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The only thing stopping you using non-Apple fans in a Mac Pro is the fact that nobody else makes fans that use the same method of input control voltage on pin 4 (PC fans use square wave PWM with variable duty cycle, but not variable voltage). But there are ways of using non-Apple fans with SMC control in a Mac Pro by either converting the signal to PWM or driving a fan directly off the control pin.

I've detailed it in this thread:


Great information.

I have ordered a new PSU fan.

One things I am not very clear is the best way to test the fan before I do the replacement.
I understand where to plug it in on the backplane board, but is it possible to keep the computer case open, connect to power and start up the computer, and see if the fan behaves correctly? or will I get wrong reading?

Thanks
 

MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,815
691
Japan
@MIKX if you read my thread above you'll see you can swap a pin on your Noctua and run it off the Mac Pro header on the board WITH control via the SMC. No need for your adapters or to run at constant speed.
Thanks, I've already ordered the Noctua NA-FX1 fan controller which should arrive soon. I want to see how that works first then I'll look at your idea.
 

amedias

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
but is it possible to keep the computer case open, connect to power and start up the computer, and see if the fan behaves correctly?

Yeah, it'll be fine for testing, just don't run like that for long as obviously your PSU will have no airflow while the normal PSU fan is unplugged, it'll be fine for a short period though.
 
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Tordenver

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Apr 21, 2020
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Yeah, it'll be fine for testing, just don't run like that for long as obviously your PSU will have no airflow while the normal PSU fan is unplugged, it'll be fine for a short period though.

Thanks Amedias. I was mostly curious to know if I can get accurate reading on the new fan behavior by keeping the computer case open, when I know the airflow is based on a closed case. In my situation I need to see if the PSU fan ramp up right away after the computer starts to confirm your theory on pin #4.

I guess I'll see how it works once I get my new fan.
 

Tordenver

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Apr 21, 2020
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Follow up on repairing my Mac Pro 2009:

. I tested the new PSU fan like Amedias suggested, and indeed it is working correctly: now I get rpm reading (not 0) and seems running at reasonable speed. Now I need to remove the failed PSU fan. I took out everything needed from the case in order to access to the fan cable running underneath the backplane.

Now I am struggling to figure out the best way to take out the PSU fan, still hoping to reuse the 4 grommets with the new fan replacement. I am wondering if there is a way to take a part that plate where the fan is attached to? or/and to remove the panel separating the optical drive/PSU unit with the backplane space?

Attached are picts to show what I am trying to do.

Any insight will be appreciated.
 

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MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,815
691
Japan
Tordenver

I gave up on removing those bolts but the " rubber grommets " can be removed wwhich allows the fan to be removed.
Also, you can re-route the fan cable so that the backplate/motherboard no longer needs to be removed to change out the PSU fan.

All the info is in my thread here. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/noctua-nf-a12x25-psu-fan-for-4-1-5-1-cmp.2226613/


SORRY ! THIS IS THE CORRECT THREAD !
 
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Tordenver

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Apr 21, 2020
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Tordenver

I gave up on removing those bolts but the " rubber grommets " can be removed wwhich allows the fan to be removed.
Also, you can re-route the fan cable so that the backplate/motherboard no longer needs to be removed to change out the PSU fan.

All the info is in my thread here. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/noctua-nf-a12x25-psu-fan-for-4-1-5-1-cmp.2226613/


SORRY ! THIS IS THE CORRECT THREAD !

Thanks for your feeddback MIKX. I saw your thread. I could not find if you explained how to removed and replaced the grommets? did you cut the Apple's ones? I see you are using the Noctua's grommets on your pictures? Because it is difficult to see /reach the Apple fan's grommets, how to remove them without cutting them out?

I already took out the backplane as you can see on my pictures. Now I am just trying to remove the old fan and hoping I don't have to cut the grommets.
 

MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,815
691
Japan
READ all of my posts in the thread.

Use TWO pairs of " needle nose pliers". grab the grommets from each end . .STRETCH THEM ! Their diameter becomes 'thinner'. Now you can 'ease' them back through the holes. It's all in the thread.

EDIT : I have used this technique on 4 of my old cMP 2,1 fans. It works.
 
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amedias

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
Exactly as @MIKX says, needle nose pliers and carefully stretch them, you can also use a small screwdriver to help push bits through.

It IS possible, just requires a bit of patience and wiggling in tight spaces. Good luck!
 
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Tordenver

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Apr 21, 2020
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READ all of my posts in the thread.

I am trying to read all your post MIKX... but you have posted so many!?

I believe your reference to the pliers was a different link than the one you mentioned at first. I just found it:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-5-1-replace-fans.2102852/post-28387835

Sorry for being dense, but I am curious what kind of pliers did you both used to access the grommets that are located in the back of the case? on the side of the plate, no problem to reach that end of the grommet... but on the fan side, the other end of the grommet is located in the thickness of the fan... do you have some kind of bent needle nose piers?

See my attached pictures to see what I am talking about.

Thanks again for you contribution... I really appreciate it!
 

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amedias

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
I have a set like this

CC43D4E7-10F1-40D1-8E01-0E523D1EC3F6.jpeg

[automerge]1588488665[/automerge]
I couldn’t be bothered with full disassembly and removing the mounting plate but if you want to be adventurous and find out how hard/easy it is and report back it Might be worth it ;)
 
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Tordenver

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Apr 21, 2020
19
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I couldn’t be bothered with full disassembly and removing the mounting plate but if you want to be adventurous and find out how hard/easy it is and report back it Might be worth it ;)

Thanks for the pict.

I tried a full disassembly. I removed all the top plate screws (as you can see there is a few) but I got stuck with the latches mecanism for the hard drive that still hold the plate. I am not sure how it can be done to remove it. So I give up and follow your advice.
 

Tordenver

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Apr 21, 2020
19
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Update on fixing my Mac Pro 2009:
. I took a part everything
. I took advantage for this project to cleanup/dust off the following:
- backplane board, processor board/tray
- drives
- PCIe cards (BMD 4K, Sonnet Tempo SSD, USB-C ports, GeForce Titan X GPU)

I also replaced the following:
- replaced 4-fans including PSU fan, PCIe fan, and front & rear processor cage fans
- I decided to replace the PSU itself even so it did not seem to be an issue. But since I own this machine (2009), I never replaced it, so I figured out it might be the right time... before it fails me

Because of the high temperature on the Northbridge and following the recommendation on this forum, I decided to check the NB, and redo the thermal pasting on the two CPU heatsink at the same time.

Surprisingly the pushpins/fasteners for the northbridge heatsink were still in good shape, not broken, and the nortbridge heatsink was not loose at all. I figured out then the problem could be the old thermal pasting (I have never redone it until now). So I took out the northbridge heatsink , replaced the pushpins with the one here recommended by Mikas (with the spring) and redid the thermal pasting using the MX-4 thermal compound (thanks Snow Tiger) (the old one indeed was all crackled)

Also I spend a fair amount of time cleaning up the processor board from the dust cake accumulated around the cpu heatsink.

Once I put back everything in place, I took a new reading from iStats... and I am a little disappointed about the results.
I fixed the PSU fan (thanks Amedias & MIKX) so that is good.

But for the northbridge diode temperature, I am just 3ºC below from what I was reading before... when my computer is idled!

One good news it seems, I made some improvement on the CPU A & B temperatures, more or less 10ºC less than before.

So I guess I am back to understand why the northbridge is so hot. I believe I did the thermal pasting correctly. Did I miss something else? As I moved along I took pictures of my steps. Attached a few of them.

Any ideas what could explain the heat from the northbridge? if I increase my fans speed to the "medium setting" from iStats, the northbridge temp diode goes to around 51ºC... but it is noisy!

Thanks for looking.
 

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MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,815
691
Japan
Tordenver

You certainly must have learned alot about your Mac Pro's CPU Tray !

I feel that your Northbridge Tdiode is running too hot at 83°C.

I eventually installed a USB powered 60 x 60 x 60 mm 16.4 CFM fan up against my Northbridge heatsink which greatly reduced the temp. Currently it isshowing 52°C but I have had it down as low as 49°C.
Omega Typhoon CFZ-6010S.JPG


DSC00148.JPG

===========================

1. I hacked a spare USB cable to connect to the fan's power connectors and then connected the fan to my 7 port USB 2 external self-powered hub. There are only TWO wires to connect by trial & error = not hard at all.

2. I live in Japan and the fan I currently use is the "Omega Typhoon 60 x 60 x 60 mm 16.4 CFM which I "think" is only available for sale in Japan but worth a search. Cost in Japan ¥1,100.

As the space around the NorthBridge heatsink is limited I would suggest checking Digikey for a 50 x 50 x 50mm fan with at least an 11 CFM rating such as this one https://www.digikey.jp/product-detail/en/sunon-fans/MB50101V2-000U-A99/259-1548-ND/2757786.
My current Omega Typhoon at 60xx60x60mm is a tight squeeze but still does the job

The most important thing is to get a 12v 50mm x 10mm fan with a HIGH CFM . . 11 CFM & above is good.

Digikey is worth a good, deep search.
 
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Tordenver

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Apr 21, 2020
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Thanks MIKX!

Yes I did learn a lot... thanks to you and the others on this forum.

Thanks for the info for that new fan. I also noticed your original link regarding this installation of an extra fan in the processor tray:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/noctua-nf-a12x25-psu-fan-for-4-1-5-1-cmp.2226613/

Before I add an extra fan, I am going to experiment with fan speeds and control... I am wondering if they can be better adjusted so that I can find a compromised between heat and noise. I noticed that amedias has done quite a bit of work with that at that link:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ans-with-automatic-smc-control.2232167/page-2

You also have to think about how airflow balances between different types and sizes of fans in different places
An interesting place where this kind of thing becomes relevant is in the CPU compartment of a Mac Pro when you start turning off individual fans or running them at very low RPM you can get some unexpected results! For example see below setup where I've been testing on a single CPU MP to tune an 'idle' profile using values below SMC minimums:

INTAKE: 400RPM
EXHAUST: 400RPM
BOOST: 600RPM

^gives terrible performance with the CPU and NB especially getting quite warm quite quickly
Instinct suggests increasing the BOOST fan will help as you'll be pulling more air over the NB and CPU> I tried bumping the BOOST up to 700, and then 800 RPM, but actually lowering the BOOST RPM and a tiny increase on INTAKE and EXHAUST gave lower temps and less noise

INTAKE: 420RPM
EXHAUST: 420RPM
BOOST: 450RPM

^ performs better as there's a better balance between the airflow of the compartment and the amount being drawn through the heatsink. If you take the INTAKE and EXHAUST too high then the BOOST is left underpowered and less air goes through the heatsink. If you take the BOOST too high in isolation then it is trying to draw air in from the front that just isn't available and you're better turning the INTAKE off!

The relationship isn't linear as RPMs increase either as the smaller fans have to spin at faster RPM to keep up with a modest increase in the bigger ones. You need to have the right balance of getting air into the compartment, through the heatinks and out of the compartment. Too far the wrong way in either case can result in the air rushing through the compartment but not getting enough through the heatsinks, or the heatsink fans causing a mini vacuum behind the INTAKE and encountering a wall at the EXHAUST.

Still I'd love to understand why my northbridge diode is so hot even after new thermal pasting + new pushpins?
Any ideas?
 

amedias

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
Still I'd love to understand why my northbridge diode is so hot even after new thermal pasting + new pushpins?
Any ideas?

It's unusual, normally you'd see a slight decrease. I'm assuming you've done this kind of thing before and know not to use too much paste? Did you thoroughly clean all residue from the heatsink before applying the new paste?
If it were me I'd probably take the whole thing apart, re-clean and rebuild checking all fits and interfaces to make sure everything was where it should be just to be on the safe side.

EDIT - just looked a the pics of your CPUs, was that the fresh paste you applied? It if was then I think you've gone a tiny bit overboard, that's a bit more more than you should use and more paste can make heat transfer worse. The job of the TIM is to fill the micro-pores and irregularities in the surface of the die and heatsink to facilitate thermal transfer. Any more that that and it starts to make the job harder.
The heatsink should have sufficient pressure to push out any un-needed paste and on CPUs it generally does as it's under greater spring pressure/screwed down, but the NB only has weak springs (to compensate for thermal expansion), nowhere near enough force to deal with an over-pasted chip, so it might be that, then again it might not!

I have seen reports of slightly concave or convex heatsinsk (and even dies!) but if you ahd that issue it'd have been there before the re-paste as well!

Normally 83°C under full load would not concern me though, at idle I'd be investigating but not worried per-se.
What is a little off though is the 20°C difference between your NB heatsink and NB diode, this suggest spoor thermal interface to me, either bad paste, or improper contact. the difference should really be ~10°C, maybe 13-14°C at a push, but 20°C is a bit too much for my liking and would instigate a bit of poking when I had some spare time.

It's worth noting that my tolerance for high temperatures is much greater than MIKX, I'm not saying one of us is right and one wrong, but just that we have differing thresholds of what is acceptable.

I'd be quite happy to let (and do let) my NB sit at 75-80°C 24x7, I only start worrying if it gets into the high 80s, and even then it's not really a problem, the max operating temp of the NB is over 120°C. One way to look at it is they were designed to run like this from the factory, and over a decade later they're still working, so it's clearly not that detrimental! I'm not suggesting that it won't shorten the life but in practise the difference is both small, and requires much longer operating life to reach that point.

I'll also bounce my PCUs off their thermal ceiling quite happily while testing to find thermal limits and have been doing so since my first adventures in overlocking a 25Mhz 386, and in over 25 years I've still not killed a chip due to heat alone. :cool:

Most people aren't diligent in watching their temps and in commercial and business environment plenty of people have run cMPs for years on nothing but the stock cooling and often while filled with office dust bunnies and with high and continuous loads. Also, a good number with dodgy heatsink pins for literally months and months with their NB running > 100°C (it's only really ~120 that they start showing issues like instability). And those same machines have then lived happy and full lives again after a re-paste and new pins.
 
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Snow Tiger

macrumors 6502a
Dec 18, 2019
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For the Nehalem cMPs , there should only be a ten degree C difference between the Northbridge chip and the Northbridge heatsink , either at load or idle . When you get those results , you have a proper cooling situation .
[automerge]1588868472[/automerge]
Your friendly , neighborhood Northbridge heatsink says , " please don't hold me by the narrow ends or you'll turn me into a funny accordion - the kind that can't expand back ..." ? Hold the cMP NB HS by the sharper , long edges . You won't cut your fingers if you're gentle .

828034-6919955966953b923dace56f691ce985.jpg
[automerge]1588868650[/automerge]
Digikey is worth a good, deep search.

Mouser is a good source , too . DigiKey won't tell you what the shipping charges are until you already paid for the item - they'll send you a final invoice after they ship the goods .
 
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Snow Tiger

macrumors 6502a
Dec 18, 2019
854
634
I'd be quite happy to let (and do let) my NB sit at 75-80°C 24x7, I only start worrying if it gets into the high 80s, and even then it's not really a problem, the max operating temp of the NB is over 120°C.

Wrong .

The single processor Nehalem cMP uses one X58 controller and the dual processor Nehalem cMP uses one 5520 controller .

According to Intel :

The X58 has a Tcase Max temp = 100.0 degree C .

The 5520 has a Tcase max temp = 95.1 degree C .

I used to think it was over a hundred degree C , too , because I listened to those voices on the internet . ?

Then I actually looked at Intel's documentation .

Keep away from the max rated temps as much as possible even if it is only to reduce the thermal fatigue , which will do long term damage .


Screen Shot 2020-05-07 at 11.37.27 AM.png



Screen Shot 2020-05-07 at 11.35.15 AM.png


Here's what the actual chips look like in a Nehalem cMP :

P3134526.JPG



P3164535.JPG
 
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amedias

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
Well I stand corrected, I thought I’d seen it listed in intel docs as 127deg C for the NB in the 5,1 ? Thanks for pointing out the error.

whatever it is rated at I can confirm it does still run stable over 100, but you start to get issues and instability at 120-123. Random shutdown follows shortly after. I’ve seen numerous machines like this where the user was none the wiser and it only came to light during routine or unrelated work!

there’s always some conservatism on specs but if the t case max is 100 I am surprised they still operate as well as they do at max and above. I’m going to recheck the engineering specs as I don’t know if the IOH has the same kind of thermal throttling system as the CPUs as that might explain it... Strange that there’s no thermal shutdown protection at the listed max like you find on most other systems.
 
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Snow Tiger

macrumors 6502a
Dec 18, 2019
854
634
Well I stand corrected, I thought I’d seen it listed in intel docs as 127deg C for the NB in the 5,1 ? Thanks for pointing out the error.

whatever it is rated at I can confirm it does still run stable over 100, but you start to get issues and instability at 120-123. Random shutdown follows shortly after. I’ve seen numerous machines like this where the user was none the wiser and it only came to light during routine or unrelated work!

there’s always some conservatism on specs but if the t case max is 100 I am surprised they still operate as well as they do at max and above. I’m going to recheck the engineering specs as I don’t know if the IOH has the same kind of thermal throttling system as the CPUs as that might explain it... Strange that there’s no thermal shutdown protection at the listed max like you find on most other systems.


Well , with a properly working X58 / 5520 controller in a cMP or a HP Z800 workstation , I've never had a situation where the Northbridge simply shut down a System because it got too hot . I've seen it as high as around 95-105 degree C . By properly working , I mean fresh thermal paste on the die and an unbroken heatsink . So , I'm not certain when the in-silicon safety kicks in . Maybe that's where the 127 degree C figure is from . These temperatures are pretty scary , you know . 100 degree C is the point of boiling water . Anytime a System component goes over 100 degree C , it grabs your attention instantly .

It will overtemp in cMP Systems under load when the heatsink is damaged or the factory thermal paste has dried . I've seen workstation Systems where controller chips literally had their thermal paste evaporated away to nothingness .

My HP Z800 has two 5520 Northbridge chips , incidentally . And the re-thermal paste job is just as difficult as with the cMP's . Keeping these full sized rigs alive over time is not as easy as it should be .

All the same , having rebuilt so many of these Nehalem cMPs , I like the NB chip temps as low as possible - preferably around 55 to 65 degree C under System load conditions . It really improves durability .

Once the NB chip dies , so does the PCB of the CPU Tray , after all ...
 
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MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,815
691
Japan
My current iStats Menus - I forgot to reduce the fan speeds - we had a hotter than usual dy here in Japan yesterday.
Also, my Noctua PSU fan controller is still being shipped from Amazon so my PSU fn speed will be totally controllable after it arrives. othe fans will be set to around 900rpm for summer peak hot weather.
My USB powered 16.14 CFM fan up against the NorthBridge heatsink is installed and doing it's job silently.

At the peak of Japan's hot & humid summer - peak is from late August ~ September 20th.

todays NB temps 49 May 8th. 2020.png
 

Tordenver

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Apr 21, 2020
19
0
It's unusual, normally you'd see a slight decrease. I'm assuming you've done this kind of thing before and know not to use too much paste? Did you thoroughly clean all residue from the heatsink before applying the new paste?
If it were me I'd probably take the whole thing apart, re-clean and rebuild checking all fits and interfaces to make sure everything was where it should be just to be on the safe side.

Indeed I took out all the old paste that was dried out and brittle. I cleaned up well before putting some new paste. (you can see the cleaned northbridge on my picture before applying new paste.
I did pay attention to have a thin layer of paste and evenly distributed before putting the heatsink on.

NB-Heatsink_CLEANUP_IMG_021111c.jpg


EDIT - just looked a the pics of your CPUs, was that the fresh paste you applied? It if was then I think you've gone a tiny bit overboard, that's a bit more more than you should use and more paste can make heat transfer worse. The job of the TIM is to fill the micro-pores and irregularities in the surface of the die and heatsink to facilitate thermal transfer. Any more that that and it starts to make the job harder.
The heatsink should have sufficient pressure to push out any un-needed paste and on CPUs it generally does as it's under greater spring pressure/screwed down, but the NB only has weak springs (to compensate for thermal expansion), nowhere near enough force to deal with an over-pasted chip, so it might be that, then again it might not!

Ok interesting... I felt I did not go overboard with it, you could see the CPU thru... but I understand what you are saying... worth it for me to try again... anything else I should check at the same time?

I have seen reports of slightly concave or convex heatsinsk (and even dies!) but if you ahd that issue it'd have been there before the re-paste as well!

Does my pictures show anything you are talking about?
[automerge]1589001658[/automerge]
Your friendly , neighborhood Northbridge heatsink says , " please don't hold me by the narrow ends or you'll turn me into a funny accordion - the kind that can't expand back ..." ? Hold the cMP NB HS by the sharper , long edges . You won't cut your fingers if you're gentle .

I promise I was very gentle with it? but I agree... don't you think it looks good?
 
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