2017 12" MB too similar to 2013 11" MBA?

[Conza]

@oneMadRssn I am not sure when you chose the 2013 MBA? But theoretically you could be right, or, there could be a planned obsolescence cycle for all old systems (which at the moment is very reasonable, 8-10 years makes them an old system). I guess if we remember to keep our eye on which devices stop being supported by the time the next big macOS update comes out, if it is in 1-2 years and at that time they now require the 2011-ish Mac computers, that would be interesting.

Do they ever give a reason specifically why their computers are no longer supported, or does the community just put 2+2 together? I mean, I haven't looked it up, but I'd be interested to know why the... 2008 MacBook isn't supported vs. the 2009 MacBook currently.

 

[EugW]

The mhz and ghz wars ended a long time ago. The details that make a laptop no longer supported these days are related to stuff other than brute performance specs, usually certain specific instructions of niche features. For example, certain older CPUs might not support a necessary instruction set. Or, older GPUs might not have hardware support for decoding certain codecs that are necessary to the OS. For example, as far as I understand, Kaby Lake is the first generation of Intel CPUs that have 4k HEVC / x265 decoding built-in to the hardware. Hypothetically, if Apple deems 4k HEVC decoding to be a necessary feature for an OS in 2022, all pre-Kaby Lake models will not be supported at that time.

That's actually why I chose the 2013 MBA to begin with. There are no noteworthy changes in the 2014-2017 versions. They all have the same hardware support, same bluetooth, same WiFi, same SSD type, same memory speeds and types. I figure whenever the 2013 becomes unsupported, it will be the same year the 2014, 2015, and 2017 models become unsupported too. In other words, not for a while.

Likewise, while it is difficult to say now, but I wouldn't bother with anything other than a Kaby Lake Macbook if purchasing today. Apple is clearly going all-in with HEVC and HEIF, so I wouldn't get anything that doesn't support those at the hardware level.

Agreed but technically hardware HEVC support began with Skylake. It supports 8-bit HEVC which is what the iPhone outputs. However 10-bit hardware decode needs Kaby Lake as does 4K DRM. That means if they decide to allow DRM’d 4K streaming then it would likely require Kaby Lake or later.

 

[oneMadRssn]

@oneMadRssn I am not sure when you chose the 2013 MBA? But theoretically you could be right, or, there could be a planned obsolescence cycle for all old systems (which at the moment is very reasonable, 8-10 years makes them an old system). I guess if we remember to keep our eye on which devices stop being supported by the time the next big macOS update comes out, if it is in 1-2 years and at that time they now require the 2011-ish Mac computers, that would be interesting.

Do they ever give a reason specifically why their computers are no longer supported, or does the community just put 2+2 together? I mean, I haven't looked it up, but I'd be interested to know why the... 2008 MacBook isn't supported vs. the 2009 MacBook currently.

Apple doesn't give a reason. Usually the community just figures it out. Sometimes it's obvious - they want a fully 64-bit Kernel so 32-bit CPUs aren't supported. Sometimes it's more arbitrary, as the case with some Mac Pros that can run High Sierra if using Sierra kexts for some stuff.
[doublepost=1522100146][/doublepost]

Agreed but technically hardware HEVC support began with Skylake. It supports 8-bit HEVC which is what the iPhone outputs. However 10-bit hardware decode needs Kaby Lake as does 4K DRM. That means if they decide to allow DRM’d 4K streaming then it would likely require Kaby Lake or later.

Thanks. Good to know it was earlier than I thought.

All I know is 4k HEVC files run dog slow, pretty much unplayable, on 1.7ghz Core i7 Haswell CPU. Not that there is any good reason to play those files on a 1366 × 768 screen, but I tried and it didn't work.

 

[case2001]

I have that upgrade itch for a new MacBook, I currently have a 2013 MacBook Air 11" it cost $1819 AUD ($2000 AUD in today's money according to the RBA inflation calc) with these specs... it was a custom order computer for its RAM and SSD.

...This looks like a long post but the below is mostly specs which take 4 lines each, then pros and cons from my existing to these possible model ideas.

What do I use it for? It's a web browser I use in bed, at a desk, occasionally play movies on it, would like to present using airplay with it, again mostly to watch movies but who knows, word processing and light spreadsheet work, feel free to ask more questions about what my current one is/isn't doing well. I guess it doesn't really need to be faster, but it does feel like it's getting there, might last another year, battery is diminished now but I'm usually near a charger.

I look list the MacBook Pro 13 TB below, why not the without TB model when I mention price? I got scared by the single fan stories I've heard places, but I did prefer the non-TB at first for bigger battery and smaller processor.

My last question after you read all of this, how long should I wait for Apple to change their line up again? I can wait, I'm just obsessed with these right now but can hold off if something is coming or prices will drop, rumours seem all over the place, not good at deciphering them (heh we're on macrumors.com I should go read some threads I guess).

Current 2013 MacBook Air
Intel Core i5-4250U @ 1.30GHz 1.3GHz DC i5, Turbo Boost up to 2.6GHz
8GB 1600MHz LPDDR3 memory
512GB SSD
Intel HD Graphics 5000

So if you look at the 2017 MacBook 1.3GHz/512GB, it looks very similar on paper and costs $2349 AUD
1.3GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor Turbo Boost up to 3.2GHz
8GB 1866MHz LPDDR3 memory
512GB SSD storage
Intel HD Graphics 615

5 years later here are the main Improvements that I can see
Retina screen +0.4 inches larger
1/3 power consumption CPUs
Weight decrease of 160g or 17.4% 0.92kgs vs 1.08kgs
USB-C
Superior integrated graphics
+3.4wh battery (on a lower power usage machine)
No more glowing Apple (a personal gripe of mine when in a dark room)
Smaller dimensions

Trade offs are
1x USB-C only vs. all other ports (especially magsafe 2)
thinner keyboard
worse webcam (480p vs 720p)
Price

So if it's going to cost me $2349 for 'the same' MacBook I have now, feels a bit like what's the point? As well, given that this one has lasted almost 5 years, may as well spend $650 extra and get a MacBook Pro 13" w/ TB

3.1GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.5GHz
8GB of 2133MHz LPDDR3 memory
512GB SSD
Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650

Improvements
Retina screen +1.7 inches larger
+11.2 watt hour battery
USB-C x 4
Touch bar / Touch ID

Trade offs
Touch bar uses more battery and prevents some start up functions, less convenient
Battery increase doesn't make up for 2x power of processor (28W vs 15W)
Weight increase of 290g or 26.9% 1.37kgs vs 1.08kgs
Large dimensions
Audible Fan
Price

I am in the same boat. I love my MacBook Air. But am torn about upgrading. I do all of the same tasks, but in addition I use Xcode and the command line. I would probably go with a MacBook when the time comes....but I have an Apple ThunderBolt Display I love. I don't use it often. If I went with the MacBook, it is my understanding since the ports are only USB C it wouldn't work. I am going to continue with the hardware I have until something fails.

As far a Surface Book 2 or Thinkpad Carbon X1 Yoga. They are great machines. Windows 10 isn't bad at all. The can't integrate the iPhone and iPad into my work flow. I can ask Siri on my Mac to call someone. Look on my iPad and write a note while reading a book in iBooks on my Mac. Everything working together. Copy something on my iPad and paste it into my Mac Document. Plus my battery time is amazing with all the devices.

 

[Conza]

So, a bit disappointed in the event earlier today that was simply about an iPad (as far as I can find).

Well, wonder if in the WWDC they do something for the MacBook, or it might be a later in the year thing.

 

[cambookpro]

Look not long to go now for the next announcement, fingers crossed we'll see upgrades to the MacBook (again) I think it's always good to buy just when it's announced then released to get maximum ROI.

I have 'sort of' given up on the MacBook Pro 13, as much as I still really like the thing. I mean if I want to video edit, I would buy a yearly licence for AVID since I'm familiar with them, and their pricing is very competitive, $500AUD for FCP, hmm, not so sure (I could love it but its a risk, yes there is a trial too).

The battery of the MBP 13 vs the MB isn't significantly increased to make up the more than 6 times the W of the processors from the MBP 13, the larger real estate might be nice, so would the TB and the Touch ID, but otherwise, better off sinking more into the MB I think... when there's a new, new one ('18, fingers crossed).

Colour is still a tough choice though, the original 3 silver, space grey and gold I like, I would prefer black (like my iPad mini), but it'll be in a leather portfolio style case anyway.

EDIT: This is how I'd spec it, as low a processor as possible with as much RAM and storage.

For what it's worth, FCPX runs pretty nicely even on a MacBook. Same can't be said for Media Composer, or at least the versions I've used on lower-specced Macs.

 

[tomscott1988]

Its a single use case.

The majority of creatives are invested in CC and pretty much all of CC runs poorly on a macbook. Not to say thats the macbooks fault as CC runs pretty poorly on even high end machines and is poorly optimized and works better on windows than the mac. Seems you need £5k+ workstations to get premier, lightroom and after effects to run even smoothly...

Again not to say these are really aimed at anyone doing any of the above it is a glorified word processor and content consumption machine but for the money £1250-1800 you can get a decent 4K or 5K iMac so its not like its price its not in the range of the creatives above.

I really hope that now the initial tech and wow has been and gone than they reshuffle the line up and it becomes more like the air as a more affordable base model. It should be £1250 max not start.

Like I said in 2013 my 11" MBA was £1270 with an i7 512gb SSD and 8GB of ram. Things arent that different on the macbook apart from less ports and a retina display and its 5 years later and the same spec is £500 more.

Lets be honest every product in the line up has a retina display bar the air they have been using the tech for 6 years. Its established and I cant see it being a huge cost to implement now. It shouldn't be the excuse for its price and the single port makes it almost impossible to use as an all round machine.

Its honestly an joke that a 27" TB display cant be attached to it. Absolutely laughable. Even more laughable that even if you could there is no way to use the attached USB ports at the same time without a dock.

Unless you spend £150 on the docks and from the sound of things they are extremely unreliable as the port is limited.

Its also laughable that the all of the displays Apple has produced cant be attached with any sort of USB support with a single dongle, your lucky to find one that has a pass through power. Non of apples displays have ever used HDMI and no dongles have mDP and non have DVI so apart from a TV how else do you attach without another dongle to convert the display to then attach to another dongle... Oh and there is no display port to HDMI adapters...

Its just laughable. The user experience in this respect is beyond poor, unless the machine is only ever used on the go. But whats the point? The whole point of having a laptop is to be able to do some actual work with a desktop OS, otherwise the iPad is cheaper, more powerful and is truly meant to be wireless and can do all of the above word processing and media consumption.

Its a scratch your head moment.

Even more interesting is that the baseline Macbook Pro isnt much more powerful, its the same price, half the storage, heavier, thicker, has one more port... whats pro about that? The base touch is almost the same with 2 more ports and a touchbar and £1750 adds almost 0 extra usability apart from the 3.1 i5 which according to geekbench is slower than the 2.3ghz in the base macbook pro.

3.1
https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/415

2.3
https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/414

Mind blown.

The whole line up is a joke at this moment in time.

This still doesn't address the elephant in the room that the 13" has no dedicated graphics or quad processors either and the TB version is £1750.

If that was the case it would be worth the money, but nope.

 

[EugW]

^^^ FWIW, my 2010 27” iMac works fine as a display in target display mode with my 2017 12” MacBook.

However, I use it with my 2017 27” iMac instead for a dual 27” setup.

 

[Conza]

I'd love to see a consolidation of the entire MacBook line up, it does seem very transitional for a while, like someone will look back and go
"Wow they kept selling the old 15 inch Pro and even the 13 inch Air, along with the new 12 inch MacBook, 13 inch Pro and 15 inch Pro with touch bars. Why did they make a 13 inch Pro with no TB?"

2 MacBooks and 2 MacBook Pros, that would be better than the strange layout we have today.

 

[Conza]

Look I say all this, but as you can see, saw a great deal on the weekend, and was just itching, desperate to buy one so I did!

And I am over the moon with it, love the thing to pieces, one of the best investments I've ever made, I hope to keep it for a long long time.

Funnily enough, I've updated the thread title, it was slightly prophetic and now I think it's my conclusion, a 2017 MB is just too similar to a 2013 MBA (as I had mine CTO anyway) for the purchase to be logical.

I want to add the MB is still a serious contender for some people, that ultra portability, tiny processors that sip battery, but for myself, even if the MB were specced as I wanted it for $1900, might've been a different story, but I still love the keyboard, screen realestate and improvements, extra ports, GPU/CPU/RAM speed, of the MBP, in every way I feel the extra $650 is well spent, and I didn't even end up spending that much more, I only spent $2775AUD(!) So so happy with it.

 

[tomscott1988]

I really dont want to neg your purchase but did you not read any of the thread at all? With quads literally 2 months away...

I suppose people will always be willing to buy these things, shame more people wont take a stand when there are compromises that simply dont make sense. The more they sell the more Apple thinks its doing right. They simply arent as good as they used to be and they are significantly more expensive. How they call it 'pro' I have no idea.

The oooo shiny moment so you spend an extra 875... not 650 is it LOL! Its still essentially the same, dual core with integrated graphics. Its only just 10% more powerful of the i7 macbook for an extra 1/3rd of the cost.

Like I explained earlier the far cheaper non TB model with the 2.3ghz processor is faster anyway...

TBH with an announcement mid June I would return it and wait for the newer model especially when it isnt a critical purchase.

 

[Conza]

I really dont want to neg your purchase but did you not read any of the thread at all? With quads literally 2 months away...

I suppose people will always be willing to buy these things, shame more people wont take a stand when there are compromises that simply dont make sense. The more they sell the more Apple thinks its doing right. They simply arent as good as they used to be and they are significantly more expensive. How they call it 'pro' I have no idea.

The oooo shiny moment so you spend an extra 875... not 650 is it LOL! Its still essentially the same, dual core with integrated graphics. Its only just 10% more powerful of the i7 macbook for an extra 1/3rd of the cost.

Like I explained earlier the far cheaper non TB model with the 2.3ghz processor is faster anyway...

TBH with an announcement mid June I would return it and wait for the newer model especially when it isnt a critical purchase.

I'm sorry but your maths is incorrect. $3319 - $2669 is $650, see specs below for figures. Oh and I got it for $2775, so it's actually only $106 now.

Quad cores are a theory, and the theory is end of 2018 maybe 2019, I want a Laptop today, I don't need a quad core for my purposes, I want battery life. Btw, have you seen the threads on the discreet GPU problems? I didn't want to have that in the future/present.

I don't see the compromises here, "Pro" is a model line, originally intended for Professionals, and it still is, it doesn't necessarily imply that each Pro computer will be up to highly technical heavy workloads. If you're doing that you want a desktop, yep already got one of those.

It isn't the same dual core, do your research, it's a 28W processor vs. a 4.5W processor, they're chalk and cheese.

The nTB model tested may sound like it was faster than the tested TB, but I'd like to see long term test results, not a single geekbench, but if some people want to buy the nTB, be my guest, I hope that computer serves them well, I didn't want to risk the potential thermal issues that a single fan in that computer may yield (yes, previous 13 inches had a a single fan, but they had more clearence so it wasn't a as much a problem).

MacBook
https://www.apple.com/au/shop/buy-mac/macbook?product=MNYG2X/A&step=config

MacBook Pro
https://www.apple.com/au/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MPXW2X/A&step=config

 

[iPodClassic1]

If the MacBook had the MacBook Pro specs, .

You know that’s not how it works , right?

There is a reason why one of them is called “Pro”.
You seem to be asking too much of a product but not wanting to spend much either.

Just purchase one of them , if it doesn’t work , then purchase the other. If you can’t, then the brand wasn’t really much for you.

I mean, buying a computer should be much more simpler than how you put it.

 

[Conza]

You know that’s not how it works , right?

There is a reason why one of them is called “Pro”.
You seem to be asking too much of a product but not wanting to spend much either.

Just purchase one of them , if it doesn’t work , then purchase the other. If you can’t, then the brand wasn’t really much for you.

I mean, buying a computer should be much more simpler than how you put it.

If the MacBook had the MacBook Pro specs, yes I might still wait, maybe with a cannon lake quad core, I'm not sure, but this is my concern, paying money, for very much the same thing, then in a few years 'wow this 2017 laptop is already getting on, hard to believe'. Maybe not so hard to believe.

Just inserting the full paragraph to reiterate the context.

Mostly I was talking about paying $2669 for what is a better version of what I already had, where as now, the MacBook Pro would need to be complete redesigned for me to consider the next upgrade, which I'm hoping will be 2023.

I'm asking nothing more than what an average consumer is asking for, after 5 years of owning a product for a successor to exist that is superior in every way to that product, which the MacBook is not, over the MacBook Air.

It may have faster ram, a more efficient processor, but the storage is hardly improved, the webcam is worse, the keyboard is worse, the port is worse, it has a better screen, it has a better form factor, but really, when there's a 13" MBP that is within spitting distance of the old 11.6" MBA, which addresses all of these concerns at not a significant price jump, you have to ask yourself how much do you value that one single item that the MacBook is the best in - portability.

And to me, not that much.

This business of "the brand wasn't really much for you" I don't fully understand, but just because a company doesn't have a product today that I want doesn't mean that it's completely out of the question either, maybe the MBP is a slight compromise, they'll never be the perfect product.

Yes, buying a computer would be simpler if you just had no care in the world and all the money in the world to spend, but I think the whole point of places like this is to flesh out what the products do, which one would suit best, so that means when you finally do buy one you're an informed consumer who knows exactly what they want, and with any luck, have a very good product that lasts a long time.