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Longplays

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No less unsupported than Apple's products, except that everything from Framework can be made by third parties.

Framework is providing generational upgrades to motherboards, and repurposing superceded components into new enclosures so they keep working.

Apple provides ewaste chippers, so their secondhand devices don't compete with their new ones.
At least Apple's Apple with Apple's build quality. Framework's for a totally different market that almost all Apple customers do not identify with.

Are there 3rd party logic boards that will fit into into a Framework laptop right now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now or 20 years from now?

Will those future logic boards with future tech fit into Framework laptops of today?

AFAIK there is no standard logicboard or power supply configuration specification specifically for laptops like ATX for desktops.

If there were then in theory a logic board from a Dell should fit into a Lenovo & vice versa.

Framework's a deadend up an industry in decline. Economies of scale will not make Framework succeed.

At most it is a talking point about people who want to show they're doing something about climate change.
 

kvic

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2015
516
460
Go look at what Framework is doing in the laptop space. That's the future. Extended use, and reuse, not recycling.

That's a very ideal world. I wish them success and hence companies start to follow the trend to some extent. Personally I believe Framework as a laptop will end up the same fate as Google's project of modular phone. Seems modern humans have an acceptance level to what kind of device size that modular design is a good idea. I would assert a Tower PC is probably the smallest fully modular device that's possible and acceptable to users. Hence, it still exists today. But to be honest, DIYPC isn't optimal in every possible way. It just works and works okay.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,012
8,444
Framework is providing generational upgrades to motherboards, and repurposing superceded components into new enclosures so they keep working.
Yeah, its a total no-brainer that Framework offer better upgradeability and repairability than Apple. I think the point, though is that anything with socketed RAM and/or M.2 drives is more user-upgradeable than current Macs, and that comes down to whether you think that the performance advantages of Apple's designs are more important.

One point that can't be over stressed is that any PC with LPDDR RAM will have it soldered in - and something like the Framework that uses regular plug-in DDR SO-DIMMS will consume more power, use a bigger battery etc. and probably take a performance hit.

Last I looked there were two sides to the Framework's modularity - one was the use of regular RAM and M.2 modules and user-replaceable batteries that could be replaced and upgraded with standard parts (but that is available in many other PC laptops and takes a power/performance hit c.f. Apple Silicon). The idea that you could upgrade the SSD and put the old one in an external enclosure is only a revelation for Mac users - its pretty standard for PCs. The other was Framework-specific (although ISTR it was all open-sourced) things like the USB modules, mix-and-match displays, keyboards and trackpads and easily swappable logic boards. I think you'd need to do a pretty in-depth analysis to decide how much that was going to help or hinder "the cause".

If I bought a laptop then, 12 months later, a new, slightly faster processor came out then:
Option a: Buy a new computer and sell/pass on my old laptop as a fully working system (or keep it as a spare myself)
Option b: Lucky me, I bought a Framework, I can swap out the logic board!
Option c: So what, my 12-month old computer still does what I bought it for, I don't really need it to be 10% faster.

Option (a) means that someone who might otherwise have bought a whole new computer doesn't need to so it could be a zero-sum game.

Option (b) means that an unused, perfectly-good 12-month old logic board is heading for the chipper mainly because Framework gave me the upgrade option. OK, I might be able to sell it but its only any good to someone else with a Framework and - right then - lots of other Framework users will be trying to offload the same old model. Or, framework will sell me a case to house the old MB and turn it into a mini PC - except, then, I still need the RAM, the SSD and even the power brick for my old machine, so I'll have to replace all of those - then I'll need a display, keyboard, mouse), plus I didn't want a Mini PC, I wanted a faster laptop - so there's an evens chance that the result will just sit in a cupboard for a few years and then go to landfill.

If you make your original purchase last 5 years then - by the time you need to upgrade chances are you'll want a new CPU, new faster/lower-power RAM tech, new higher-res display, a keyboard where you can still read the letters, USB-F/Thunderbolt 6/WiFi 8, and hardware support for we-haven't-thought-of-it yet. so even if you're still able to upgrade your Framework, 90% of the old parts will be landfill-bound, and probably too power-hungry for the 'repurpose as home server' trick.

OK, that's all glass-half-full stuff, but the point is that the "benefits" are not that simple and the Framework model is still ultimately about making you feel good about continuously buying new kit, whereas if you actually give a wet slap about sustainability you should take option (c) and Just Say No to conspicuous consumption.
 

Longplays

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Yeah, its a total no-brainer that Framework offer better upgradeability and repairability than Apple. I think the point, though is that anything with socketed RAM and/or M.2 drives is more user-upgradeable than current Macs, and that comes down to whether you think that the performance advantages of Apple's designs are more important.

One point that can't be over stressed is that any PC with LPDDR RAM will have it soldered in - and something like the Framework that uses regular plug-in DDR SO-DIMMS will consume more power, use a bigger battery etc. and probably take a performance hit.

Last I looked there were two sides to the Framework's modularity - one was the use of regular RAM and M.2 modules and user-replaceable batteries that could be replaced and upgraded with standard parts (but that is available in many other PC laptops and takes a power/performance hit c.f. Apple Silicon). The idea that you could upgrade the SSD and put the old one in an external enclosure is only a revelation for Mac users - its pretty standard for PCs. The other was Framework-specific (although ISTR it was all open-sourced) things like the USB modules, mix-and-match displays, keyboards and trackpads and easily swappable logic boards. I think you'd need to do a pretty in-depth analysis to decide how much that was going to help or hinder "the cause".

If I bought a laptop then, 12 months later, a new, slightly faster processor came out then:
Option a: Buy a new computer and sell/pass on my old laptop as a fully working system (or keep it as a spare myself)
Option b: Lucky me, I bought a Framework, I can swap out the logic board!
Option c: So what, my 12-month old computer still does what I bought it for, I don't really need it to be 10% faster.

Option (a) means that someone who might otherwise have bought a whole new computer doesn't need to so it could be a zero-sum game.

Option (b) means that an unused, perfectly-good 12-month old logic board is heading for the chipper mainly because Framework gave me the upgrade option. OK, I might be able to sell it but its only any good to someone else with a Framework and - right then - lots of other Framework users will be trying to offload the same old model. Or, framework will sell me a case to house the old MB and turn it into a mini PC - except, then, I still need the RAM, the SSD and even the power brick for my old machine, so I'll have to replace all of those - then I'll need a display, keyboard, mouse), plus I didn't want a Mini PC, I wanted a faster laptop - so there's an evens chance that the result will just sit in a cupboard for a few years and then go to landfill.

If you make your original purchase last 5 years then - by the time you need to upgrade chances are you'll want a new CPU, new faster/lower-power RAM tech, new higher-res display, a keyboard where you can still read the letters, USB-F/Thunderbolt 6/WiFi 8, and hardware support for we-haven't-thought-of-it yet. so even if you're still able to upgrade your Framework, 90% of the old parts will be landfill-bound, and probably too power-hungry for the 'repurpose as home server' trick.

OK, that's all glass-half-full stuff, but the point is that the "benefits" are not that simple and the Framework model is still ultimately about making you feel good about continuously buying new kit, whereas if you actually give a wet slap about sustainability you should take option (c) and Just Say No to conspicuous consumption.
In addition Framework modularity is great if the user is replacing a defective part by themselves. This is assuming they are comfortable doing this.

A reason why Macs are that unpgradeable because most of their userbase aren't the type to open the case and tinker it themselves. They'll probably have the nerd of the family, friends or extended family do the repair work if they thought of it.

I personally like that but as what is pointed out there is a power penalty and weight penalty for modularization.

MBP 16" battery life is "Up to 22 hours Apple TV app movie playback" and "Up to 15 hours wireless web" largely because of it being an SoC and being at the leading edge node. This would be impossible to accomplish with AMD/Intel/Nvidia's business model. Their parts not being an SoC & not being at the leading edge node would whittle it down to less than 7hrs battery life.

Most users will use the Mac for 4 years and Intel PC for 5-6 years. When the user is inclined to swap out old parts for new the remaining 10% parts would likely suffer natural wear and tear.

Wouldn't the end user want a new keyboard, trackpad and display to replace that god damaged from possible food/drink damage? The enclosure's surely got banged up, dented and cracked over its 4-6 years use.

So what is there to "reuse"? May as well just buy new after 6+ years of use.

Also for technical, health and safety reasons the connectors female and male parts have to be changed. This necessitates a change of logic board.

Take USB-A for example. It has been with us from 1996-today. Its successor USB-C was released in 2015 for it to take on added data throughput and USB Power Delivery. The industry could still push USB-A for that purpose but likely does not have backward compatibility for higher power USB PD. The form factor of USB-C is likely done for convenience for the end user and lowering cost of manufacturing.
 
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AndreeOnline

macrumors 6502a
Aug 15, 2014
704
495
Zürich
Exceeeeeept that if you keep an eye on what developers and users are reporting - out of memory errors are becoming a common issue these days....

3364a1c4dbd2374e.png

^ This should never happen on a UNIX-derived operating system. Unless what it's saying is that the machine has run out of SSD for swapfile, this is Classic MacOS clownshoes territory.

I really hope no-one looks at this image and thinks "dang, the Mac Pro is hardly good for Xcode, even if I max out the 192 GB of RAM".

I wouldn't draw my conclusions on memory-leak scenarios. That said, I'd much rather "be right" than "defend a poorly supported statement", so if you can show me anything that points in the right direction, I'll be happy to change my mind.

I've found much more success in first learning 'what's what' and then forming an opinion, than the other way around.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
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Australia
I wouldn't draw my conclusions on memory-leak scenarios. That said, I'd much rather "be right" than "defend a poorly supported statement", so if you can show me anything that points in the right direction, I'll be happy to change my mind.

Have a read about it - the mjtsai link is just one.

Memory leaks happen sure, but the idea that a system can "run out" of application memory, unless it has run out of disk space for the swap file, simply isn't reasonable on any desktop operating system made in the last couple of decades.

It's enough of an issue that it's reasonable to question an article of faith that Apple has "better" memory management on AS, or that there's something about AS that means less memory is just as good as more memory on Intel.

Quantity has a quality of its own - and it's telling that Apple is very happy to make that point when it comes to talking about VRAM.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
Yes, you're right, Swap is what I was referring to, but what iOS has for "running low on memory" is "crash the app using memory".

What macOS appears to have now is:

3364a1c4dbd2374e.png

^ This should never happen on a UNIX-derived operating system. Unless what it's saying is that the machine has run out of SSD for swapfile, this is Classic MacOS clownshoes territory.

That definitely can happen on a UNIX based OS. Swap memory does mean unlimited memory. Most UNIX based OS's have a swap limit so that memory can't just eat all your drive, or you can't hit performance walls by becoming over-dependent on swap.

This stack overflow indicates macOS has a current limit of 100 gigs of swap. Not a technological limit, just a "don't overdo on swap" limit.

iOS will not always "crash the app using memory" when physical memory is low. That's very hardware dependent. Some iPad hardware will use swap.
 

m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
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This 8,1 Mac Pro is the proof Marketing at Apple takes all the important choices no matter the segment and we as Pro users and enthusiasts were wrong to support Apple and this platform to begin with. It's on us. We should have moved on years ( maybe decades ) ago.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Will you be moving on?
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Will you be moving on?

Kinda but apple did backtrack after enough heat and gave us the 7,1. I wasn’t even that long ago and as such, I believe is relevant. They need to feel enough heat about how humiliatingly bad the 8,1 Mac is, and they may just do the right thing.
 
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m1maverick

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Kinda but apple did backtrack after enough heat and gave us the 7,1. I wasn’t even that long ago and as such, I believe is relevant. They need to feel enough heat about how humiliatingly bad the 8,1 Mac is, and they may just do the right thing.
The only reason this product makes sense is as a placeholder for a future 7,1 type of Mac Pro.
 
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fuchsdh

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Jun 19, 2014
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The only reason this product makes sense is as a placeholder for a future 7,1 type of Mac Pro.
I don't really buy that hope, honestly. It's not like the M2 was hot off the presses or they're just coming out with Apple Silicon Macs—they've known for years what chips they were going to be making, and the problems of expandability or off-package GPUs or memory didn't just appear.

I don't see why they'd wait all this time and produce this computer if they had any intention of doing something novel (or even a base level of expandability like swapping the whole SOC.)
 

m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
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I don't really buy that hope, honestly. It's not like the M2 was hot off the presses or they're just coming out with Apple Silicon Macs—they've known for years what chips they were going to be making, and the problems of expandability or off-package GPUs or memory didn't just appear.

I don't see why they'd wait all this time and produce this computer if they had any intention of doing something novel (or even a base level of expandability like swapping the whole SOC.)
I'm not saying that's the reason they did it. I'm saying it is the only reason I can think of for this product to exist. Given the only thing that sets it apart from the Studio Ultra is the PCIe slots which you can't use for a GPU and a few more ports it appears to be a product without a purpose.
 
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fuchsdh

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I'm not saying that's the reason they did it. I'm saying it is the only reason I can think of for this product to exist. Given the only thing that sets it apart from the Studio Ultra is the PCIe slots which you can't use for a GPU and a few more ports it appears to be a product without a purpose.
There are people who don't need more graphics horsepower but still need PCI expansion or want to keep hard drives or storage internal. I agree with I think pretty much everyone that the niche this machine serves is narrower than the 7,1, and that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense if they want to keep selling it, but it still has a purpose beyond just a stop-gap product.
 

m1maverick

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Nov 22, 2020
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There are people who don't need more graphics horsepower but still need PCI expansion or want to keep hard drives or storage internal. I agree with I think pretty much everyone that the niche this machine serves is narrower than the 7,1, and that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense if they want to keep selling it, but it still has a purpose beyond just a stop-gap product.
It's my opinion the segment who needs PCIe expansion but not GPUs to put in those PCIe slots is much smaller than those who need the PCIe slots for GPUs.

The market segment who needs PCIe expansion and not GPUs to go into them could likely get by with a less powerful M2 processor and therefore a corresponding lower price. It just doesn't make sense to me that Apple would make a slot box which is the most expensive system they offer.
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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There are people who don't need more graphics horsepower but still need PCI expansion or want to keep hard drives or storage internal. I agree with I think pretty much everyone that the niche this machine serves is narrower than the 7,1, and that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense if they want to keep selling it, but it still has a purpose beyond just a stop-gap product.

Well I hope those people dont need to fill those 7 slots with more than 1 actual card as thats all there are lanes for. One SSD card and those 6 slots can be used, I don't know, as a nice planter for growing some herbs and spices...
 

impulse462

macrumors 68020
Jun 3, 2009
2,097
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View attachment 2216835

Seems to me you'd need to get rid of the current executives to get a change of direction.
It's a non-answer. Adding support for a 2nd discrete GPU is definitely possible. I say this as someone who writes software which uses system and GPU memory interchangeably. It would require more work on their part, however, and they probably don't want to do it.
 
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mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
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It's a non-answer. Adding support for a 2nd discrete GPU is definitely possible. I say this as someone who writes software which uses system and GPU memory interchangeably. It would require more work on their part, however, and they probably don't want to do it.

Certainly, a more honest answer would be to say:

"We've built our business around this scheduled obsolescence model and that revenue optimisation, and so it's not entirely clear to me how you'd bring in service-life-extending and new-model-competing upgrades and do so in a way that is optimised for our revenues".
 

kvic

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2015
516
460
I've repeated a couple of times in the past few days here. The main reason behind the lack of dGPUs is the ideology behind the proud and pride of the 'unified memory' architecture in Apple Silicons. Happy to see my hunch is confirmed so quickly and frankly by Apple executives. I'm hopeful for a change in 5 to 10 years time. lol

Btw the guy Ternus is so frank that he used 'shared memory' instead of the more politically correct (in Apple land) 'unified memory' architecture. 'Unified memory' architecture is just an improved version of shared memory that exists in PC for a long time, and more recently in gaming consoles.

Also..I won't over analyse 'Apple not going to compete against Nvidia'.

It's no brainer to be assured that on a single GPU level Apple Silicon is aiming to be as close performance to the latest from Nvidia as possible. So Apple is competing and will be competing against Nvidia. It'll be so stupid to publicly acknowledge they're competing against Nvidia at multiple levels.
 
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Varmann

macrumors regular
Jan 3, 2010
154
71
Just watched John Gruber’s WWDC 2023 interview with John Ternus and Greg Joswiak, which was excellent.

Gruber does a great job of explaining the central problem with the Apple Silicon Mac Pro — professional workloads heavily reliant on GPU compute (e.g., ML with large data sets) are simply not possible on Apple’s highest end Mac hardware given M2 Ultra’s relatively paltry GPU compute relative to pro workstations with multiple discrete GPUs.

Both Ternus and Joswiak seemed caught off guard by this line of questioning. After a bit of deflecting, Joswiak tacitly admitted that the Apple Silicon Mac Pro is simply not capable of serving this (growing) market of pro users (NVIDIA as their strengths, we have ours).

The interview quite entertaining and is worth a watch in its entirety:

Apple might be taken off guard with the current explosion of ML interest.

They have worked slow and steady with the user side of ML, but not the developer side. Not having a possibility to add dedicated crunching power might be the most important omission in the MacPro. It can of course be rectified, I am curious if they will do that.
 
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