I’m not saying these are the models you should be shopping for, or that these comparisons are representative of what everyone is looking for in a computer. I’m just trying to find the most comparable, the ones people are generally comparing to the MacBook Pro, to try to get a fair idea of what the competition is charging on comparable models. I get that there are plenty of lower cost options out there, but they’re also not generally very comparable purely on hardware to the MacBook Pro. (This, doesn’t mean no-one would buy these as an alternative to the MacBook Pro, just means the hardware is nowhere near being comparable). So I’m trying to find the ones that people are saying compare to the MacBook Pro, and as I look at these models, I generally find that the RAM pricing is either similar, the same, or higher. That doesn’t mean that all Windows PCs cost more for RAM, in fact, I was basically expecting to find that these comparable PCs were going to charge less for RAM, but so far, they’re charging the same or more. And like I said, I think the LPDDR RAM is part of this, a lot of the ones that have cheaper RAM upgrades also use RAM cards, which are user-upgradeable.
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8GB RAM in M3 MacBook Pro Proves the Bottleneck in Real-World Tests
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Resolution is kinda important, it’s generally one of the most important specs on a display….
You consider the MBA to have a crappy display and be too heavy?!?
Thanks, exactly. 👍🏻. Active cooling isn’t near as much of a consideration on M-Series MacBooks, unless you’re doing incredibly taxing workflows like heavy video editing, 3D, etc. Office software won’t kick up the fans, and in my experience, I’ve actually been really surprised by the level of tasks the MacBook Air can do with no fan. 👍🏻
He didn't say it wasn't "kinda important", just that it wasn't "everything". Something can still be kinda important while not being the only important aspect.
He’s claiming that the MacBook Air has a “poor screen”, when the ThinkPad X1 Carbon has a display that is worse on pretty much every spec. Lower resolution, lower nits of brightness, etc. As far as specs go, the MacBook Air’s display looks like it beats the ThinkPad X1 Carbon, which is a laptop that’s a lot more expensive than the MacBook Air.
The thing is, even that really kinda depends on what people are looking for. We have to see what professionals are actually buying to really know (and that encompasses a lot of models from a lot of manufacturers).
Having used Thinkpad displays, they definitely aren't as good as the Mac ones (generally speaking). Most thinkpad owners usually upgrade the displays when they build to order (you can get some fairly decent ones), but the the display has never really been the selling point of a Thinkpad.
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I don’t think it’s too terribly subjective to look for computers that are comparable on the hardware front, and are commonly used and designed for the things that the MacBook Pro is designed for. And also in about the same price bracket. I’m looking for models that are comparable in hardware at least on average, are good for the same kind of high-end workflows the MacBook Pro is good for such as video editing, animation, etc., and in the same price bracket. It’s like comparing similarly priced luxury cars vs. ordinary sedans in my view. Lots of ordinary sedans offer the same number of seats, same size engine, etc., but aren’t comparable in price bracket at all to the luxury cars. And they don’t offer lots of other features. Plenty of people don’t need a luxury car, so they could go with cheaper options. But for me to find comparable vehicles to compare pricing against, I’m going to get some really skewed results if I compare luxury cars against ordinary sedans. That’s why I’m trying to compare similar models, ones that the reviewers have tested and compare against MacBook Pros.
This lends itself to creating dilemmas in comparison that simply don't exist in the real world though. The microsoft surface doesn't really have a monopoly over systems that professions use (I don't know the exact numbers for market share, but I think we can agree that the Surface doesn't have a majority.)
Yeah, that seems like a stretch.
To be fair, the 12-inch was 25% lighter. But also with a smaller screen, more awkward keyboard, even fewer ports.
I didn’t say they do, and I haven’t only looked at Surface, I’ve also cited other manufacturers as well. Again, I’m looking for models with comparable hardware and designed for similar workflows, that are also in the same price bracket.
I think you're looking at a narrower criteria than I am. The mindset of a PC buyer is generally quite different than the mindset of a buyer looking at Macs. The PC market generally says "this is what I want to do, this is what I need in a computer, and this is the price I am willing to pay". They then find a computer that fits those criteria, and decide which sacrifices they are comfortable making.
If someone needs 16GB and Microsoft charges too much, they're just going to look at a plethora of other manufacturers that offer what they're looking for. They're not locked into paying Microsoft's prices.
I’m looking for windows PCs that can offer similar things to what the MacBook Pro offers. Case in point: video editors are going to have a narrower criteria for what will work for their workflow. One thing that’s paramount to any kind of creative work is a high quality display. Graphics performance is also very important. So that’s going to create a narrower criteria when you’re looking for PCs that are designed for the same kind of workflows that the MacBook Pro does well. Again, that doesn’t mean there aren’t cheaper options out there for people with lighter workflows, or workflows where factors like display quality, graphics, etc. aren’t as important. But trying to compare those against the MacBook Pro would lead to skewed results, because, in my opinion, that’s like comparing luxury cars to ordinary sedans.
See, I still am not sure I really agree. You've included some models that do have high upgrade prices, but there is no shortage of high end PCs that can give you 16GB of RAM for a very reasonable price.
Good for him. It didn't work out for me. I had an M1 MBA.
Cooling was the biggest problem. When running my normal workflow, that had a Widows VM in it, the sucker got HOT, and throttled so much it wasn't usefull. The screen is pretty relative to experience, and yes heavy. Almost a pound heavier than my thinkpad. That makes a difference if you have problems carrying things.
I kept using it for 2 months and couldn't stand it anymore, so I put it on the shelf until I could trade it in.
But how do those models compare with the MacBook Pro on other important factors such as display quality, graphics performance, CPU performance, build-quality, etc.? I’m not saying there aren’t cheaper options out there, what I’m saying is that most of the ones that are actually fairly comparable when it comes to most of those factors tend to also be about the same price to upgrade, at least from what I’ve seen so far. Of course there are plenty of lower cost options, but those usually make some pretty big sacrifices in a lot of those areas. Does that mean they’re bad, or aren’t a good option for people? Of course not. But if you have a very demanding workflow that the MacBook Pro can handle, that’s going to really narrow down your options in PC laptop model, many of those cheaper PCs won’t have the graphics performance you need, or won’t have the CPU performance you need, or won’t have the display quality you need. So I’m generally looking for PCs that can make the least amount of sacrifices when compared to the MacBook Pro. Not everyone needs the upper ceiling of the MacBook Pro’s capabilities, and I get that, I’m just trying to make a fair comparison by looking for Windows laptops that offer a similar upper ceiling. And, again, I’m not saying you’re buying metric is wrong at all, in fact, I grew up using Windows PCs, and it was by using that buying metric that I decided to give a MacBook Pro a try in the first place, though I bought an older refurbished one. I just think to make a fair comparison, it’s best to look for the alternatives where you’re making the fewest sacrifices compared to what the MacBook Pro offers, and ones that will work well for the same kinds of heavy workloads.
At least my M1 MBA fit that description. Color just wasn't sharp and that metal body is heavy compared to other light laptops. I haven't seen an M2 MBA, not going to chance that again with my workload.
I own a personal MacBook Air M1. I don't use it tons, partly because the webcam is complete crap, partly because I need dongles to connect to it, and partly because I have a work MacBook Pro 16". I rather like it- the screen looks nice, the design is appealing to me (much nicer than the M2 Air design), it feels comfy on my lap, and it doesn't overheat with non-intensive use or slow down. To me it's very light, but I'm big. If weight was a big factor for someone I guess they'd have to avoid Apple, unless they could make do with an iPad.
I have an M2 iPad Pro. Not quite for work stuff though. Good screen, and decent at light stuff! I'm looking forward to an OLED iPad Pro...
I really need Windows for my job, and that means a VM, and that's probably the main reason the MBA didn't work out. And yes, all Macbooks are heavy to me, and I use a Windows laptop that is lighter by a good margin.
I use an M1 iPad Pro a lot for my workflow, and I’m also looking forward to OLED iPads. 👍🏻
See, at this point, we're getting back into subjective stuff. That's my whole point. Not everyone compares things on the same criteria, we could decide any set of criteria that could make a small selective set of PCs "comparable to the MacBook Pro" - but as we know, these systems don't even come close to having a monopoly over the systems that professionals actually buy.
The technical specifications of devices aren’t subjective. When I look for Windows PCs with similar technical specifications as the MacBook Pro (in the most areas), so far I’m finding they charge about the same, the same, or more for RAM upgrades. I don’t think you can make a fair comparison between a MacBook Pro and a laptop with significantly lesser specs in most areas. Of course some can use those for their workflow just fine, but they could also probably use a MacBook Air. So that won’t lead to a fair comparison, the only way I can create a fair comparison is by finding Windows PCs that objectively have similar specifications as the MacBook Pro, where you’re making the least number of compromises, and one where a person who has a workflow that actually really works the MacBook Pro hard could actually use as well as an alternative. I’m looking for Windows PCs that are actually most comparable to the MacBook Pro. Plenty of professionals buy the MacBook Air as well, the point isn’t about what computers professionals buy, the point is about what computers actually have objectively comparable specifications to the MacBook Pro to support the same workflows.
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Totally makes sense. I much preferred the days when I could dual boot, choosing either Mac or Windows.
You're still stacking the deck by ignoring countless other computers that also meet those very same criteria that you've mentioned. It doesn't support the conclusion you are trying to make.
Finding a small selection of a few computers that have high RAM prices doesn't support the conclusion that "the premium PC market is charging more than Apple is for RAM" (which is what you're trying to imply). You're artificially narrowing the premium down to a very small selection of computers that is much narrower than the market of computers from which professionals actually buy.
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I’m not “stacking the deck” by not comparing the MacBook Pro to other windows laptops with lesser specs on nearly every point. That wouldn’t be a fair comparison. I’m trying to find Windows laptops that have mostly equal specs to the MacBook Pro, such as close or equal CPU performance, close or equal graphics performance, close or equal display quality, close or equal build-quality, etc. That’s not “ignoring” the other options, I’ve said several times now that they exist, they’re just not very comparable because they’re not even close to equal on most of the specs. Again, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t good options, it just means that they’re not comparable enough to the same specs to offer a fair alternative for people who want all or even most of the benefits of a MacBook Pro. I’ve looked at lots of Windows laptops at this point, none of which I’m actually interested in buying, and every one of them I’ve been able to find that’s mostly comparable specs-wise is also charging about the same, the same, or more for RAM upgrades. And as I explained before, I think that’s because typically the high-performance models seem to use soldered RAM just like Apple does, and so they charge more for upgrades. Laptops with user-upgradeable RAM cards don’t tend to charge as much for RAM upgrades, but also don’t tend to be close to the MacBook Pros specs in many key areas such as display quality, CPU performance, graphics performance, etc. Again, I’m looking for Windows laptops that are as close as possible in specs to the MacBook Pro I’m comparing them to, not just any Windows laptop.