A $15,000 AppleTV

[fivepoint]

I saw this product a few months ago and thought the same thing. While it's not a system I'd be interested in buying, it's exciting to see what will eventually be available for consumers down the road. And I think ATV will help out us poor people in the mean time.

Also, just a word of advice. Try not to take comments from others personally. Usually I found out that it's just some punk 13 year old who likes to talk trash behind his computer screen when he'd be scared to death of you in real life. The more you show that it's personal, the more they do it. My $.02

Very, very, good advice. Thank you. I will just try and leave it alone as of now. It is clear that he is just out to try and ruffle someone's feathers and turn my thread into something inflamatory.

Sorry if my first post offended anyone. That was not the intent... not by a long shot.

 

[pprior]

Ok dude, your post ticked me off because it came across to me as insulting to the salesperson and as I said it seemed to imply that only an idiot would spend that kind of money.

Obviously you didn't mean it that way, and if my subsequent responses similarly ticked you off, they weren't intended that way either. Sometimes we read too much into messages on the internet.

Apparently I misread you, and I apologize. I'm a woodworker and enjoy your desk project, so I'll cut you some extra slack there for your skills

The kaleidescape system is wonderful to dream about, and for 99% of readers here likely never a realistic option. I guess maybe what sets me off about these things is that there seems to be so much class warfare going on nowadays (not by you, but in general) that any attack on the choices of the wealthy just irritates me. I'm not in that category by the way, but I think America wasn't made great by those kind of attitudes (which again I'm not ascribing to you!).

Anyway, enough of my rambling. If your friend does end up with the system I'd be very interested in hearing back from you - I've demoed it but never used it in real life. If he ends up with some high end ATV application, maybe we can scope some ideas there as well. Keep us updated.

 

[fivepoint]

Ok dude, your post ticked me off because it came across to me as insulting to the salesperson and as I said it seemed to imply that only an idiot would spend that kind of money.

Obviously you didn't mean it that way, and if my subsequent responses similarly ticked you off, they weren't intended that way either. Sometimes we read too much into messages on the internet.

Apparently I misread you, and I apologize. I'm a woodworker and enjoy your desk project, so I'll cut you some extra slack there for your skills

The kaleidescape system is wonderful to dream about, and for 99% of readers here likely never a realistic option. I guess maybe what sets me off about these things is that there seems to be so much class warfare going on nowadays (not by you, but in general) that any attack on the choices of the wealthy just irritates me. I'm not in that category by the way, but I think America wasn't made great by those kind of attitudes (which again I'm not ascribing to you!).

Anyway, enough of my rambling. If your friend does end up with the system I'd be very interested in hearing back from you - I've demoed it but never used it in real life. If he ends up with some high end ATV application, maybe we can scope some ideas there as well. Keep us updated.

Well, this doesn't happen very often on the internet either... Let's call a 'truce.'

I realize that my first post wasn't worded perfectly, and again... I do apologize for that. Like I said before, it is obvious that this system has some merit for certain consumers... and that's that. To be honest, when I talk to my friend about it later, I was planning on not recommending the AppleTV for him. Bottom line, he isn't technically savvy enough, and it's that simple. Unless of course he'd rather buy digital movies over the AppleTV instead of buying DVDs...

Anyway, I completely agree with you regarding the class warfare topic as well. This particular friend of mine is the perfect example. He started his own company 20 years ago when he was working for virtuallly minum wage, and has worked his butt off during that time, turning his company into a $25million dollar/year sucess story. It is people like him that make this country a success, and until people stop thinking that all wealthy people are 'evil' and part of 'evil corporations' the warfare will never end. His success the best example of capitalism, free-market, entrepreneurship than I can think of.... and I think these things are way-undervalued by many people.

Anyway, glad we got this cleared up. This thread certainly has taken a unique twist, and went somewhere I did not expect it to! I'm also glad that you have enjoyed my 'ultimate iMac desk' project. I've had a lot of fun with it, and seeing people to enthusiastically following along on this forum has made it that much more fun!

 

[MikieMikie]

fivepoint,

I just took awhile to read your desk-construction thread, and wanted to thank you for sharing the process with us.

My dad made his living woodworking and, his one comment was, "It's fun to build and a bitch to finish."

Take your time.

-- Mikie

 

[fivepoint]

fivepoint,

I just took awhile to read your desk-construction thread, and wanted to thank you for sharing the process with us.

My dad made his living woodworking and, his one comment was, "It's fun to build and a bitch to finish."

Take your time.

-- Mikie

Absolutely love the quote... it rings so true, and I have a feeling this is a common feeling among woodworkers. Your last comment, "take your time" is also one that is pretty common. I learned this lesson early on in the process... it makes it more enjoyable, you make fewer mistakes, and half the reason you do it is to relax, so I think that makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for the support man, I do appreciate it.

 

[Killyp]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Kaleidescape is WAY beyond apple TV.

Show me where your apple TV can play back hundreds of DVDs from multiple rooms in the home with RAID backup all with absolutely top notch touchpad interface and incredible support (including they will rip your DVDs for you).

I own an appleTV so I'm not bashing, but please don't embarrass yourself by thinking it's even close to that system.

The Apple TV can do all the things you mention. There's nothing stopping you from keeping your iTunes library on a RAID array + backup.

The touchpad interface is also possible too if you go for a good system. B&O's system will allow you to use a touchscreen remote, and even hide the TV out of sight, heck even in a different room to the 'main' control TV.

 

[BoulderBum]

1. Downloadable rental content.
2. Downloadable purchased SD content.
3. YouTube access.
4. Flickr access.
5. iTunes integration.
6. Podcast support.
7. ~$15,000 CHEAPER!!!

NOTICE: I did not say ALL customers would prefer it... I said MANY.

I agree. If I had these two units on a shelf, they were the same price and I was asked to pick one, I'd choose the Apple TV. I like that you can rip DVD's to the Kalidescape, but for the price difference you could buy every movie you wanted from iTunes 100x over without worrying about ripping.

Rentals/video podcasts/YouTube/iTunes store access make the Apple TV a more compelling choice, IMO, plus with iTunes content, you have the ability to take it with you on an iPod. The Kaledescape might have been innovative in its day, but the Apple TV is the more robust solution and the obvious winner.

You'd think that for the $15,000 price, you'd at least get the ability to rip Blu Ray content (which would be a fairly compelling feature), but it appears to only work with standard DVD's.

 

[NP3]

The one thing Kaleidescape's system DOES do, which the Apple TV can't, is allow you to rip commercial DVDs to the unit's hard drive legally. It was engineered specifically to use licensed CSS keys and to handle the data in a way that is in full compliance with the CSS license. Kaleidescape reportedly went through a lot of trouble to do this, but it didn't stop the DVD-CCA (the outfit that licenses the CSS encryption system) from suing them anyway. Fortunately, Kaleidescape prevailed in court (see article here).

I bring this us because I think people around here tend to lose sight of the fact that ripping DVDs is presently, at least in the US, a crime under the DMCA. Forget what you think you know about "fair use," it doesn't apply. I'm not getting preachy about whether it's right or wrong, I'm merely pointing out that we must always remember the law is not on our side at present, and that we should continually pressure our legislators to restore "fair use" rights to private citizens who want to view their legally-purchased content from a server instead of a DVD player.

I'm really curious if it works well with Sony's latest dvds that are a PITA to rip like Casino Royale.

 

[VideoFreek]

I'm really curious if it works well with Sony's latest dvds that are a PITA to rip like Casino Royale.

Kaleidescape keep a list of "problem DVDs." It appears they actively work to resolve issues.

 

[pprior]

You'd think that for the $15,000 price, you'd at least get the ability to rip Blu Ray content (which would be a fairly compelling feature), but it appears to only work with standard DVD's.

You can't rip blu ray because it's illegal to do so. They have legal permission to store normal DVD, but my understanding is that the encryption on blu ray cannot be "broken" without being in violation of the law.

I know that's a very contentious subject, but that's why they don't offer it (yet). It's not a technical limitation, it's a legal one.

 

[mkrishnan]

the two products are clearly not aimed at the same "type of people" and not for (exactly) the same purposes..so why compare them?

I don't necessarily agree. The Kaleidoscope seems to have great technology behind it. Right now, they're investing a lot of money in things like addressing problem DVDs. This is something where their effort gets amortized into every unit sold without further cost to them (i.e. they have to do the same thing to make a DVD work on one Kaleidoscope or 50,000 of them). So in the long term, it's in their interest to work the technology downmarket. At $15,000, it's out of the budget of mid-range home theater enthusiasts. If they drop the price by a factor of three... which is often a 24-36 month time window in modern electronics.... $5000 is not out of the range of mid-range home theater enthusiasts. In five years, likewise, a variant of the same technology might involve just 2 or 3 TB of storage space and cost just $2000, and then be fairly realistic for many people.

 

[CWallace]

As to the price, yes an tv is $230, but that Xserve head-unit is going to be north of $4000 and the 12TB Promise VTrak E-Class 16x 750 SATA RAID subsystem is $15,000 so you'll need three of those to get similar capacity.

 

[andypress]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Kaleidescape is WAY beyond apple TV.

Show me where your apple TV can play back hundreds of DVDs from multiple rooms in the home with RAID backup all with absolutely top notch touchpad interface and incredible support (including they will rip your DVDs for you).

I own an appleTV so I'm not bashing, but please don't embarrass yourself by thinking it's even close to that system.

The kaleidascape does not have any remote whatsoever as part of "the system". It was likely a custom-designed interface running on a $3,000 remote. It also seems like no one here has mentioned that the kaleidascape server itself has an initial cost of $20k or so, and you must purchase more if you wish to store more. Each set top box required for an individual tv costs around $4,000.

 

[digitalnicotine]

OP, thanks for sharing about this device. It's out of my price range, but neat to see what's out there for those who can afford it.

In reference to the chat about ripping content (legally) for play on iPods, etc., I noticed the last Blu-ray disk I purchased came with an additional file specifically to load the film onto my iPod or PSP. I thought that was pretty awesome, and hope this is a new trend for Blu-Ray movies. BTW, the movie is Juno, and the box read:

"Simple. Fast. Portable. - With Digital Copy, enjoying a portable version of your favorite film has never been easier. Simply transfer the included file to your PC, iPod, or other compatible player and get your entertainment fix when you want, where you want!"

Then in small print, it noted it's compatible with iTunes, video iPods/iPhone, and Windows PlayForSure compatible products. It was released by Fox.

 

[BoulderBum]

You can't rip blu ray because it's illegal to do so. They have legal permission to store normal DVD, but my understanding is that the encryption on blu ray cannot be "broken" without being in violation of the law.

I know that's a very contentious subject, but that's why they don't offer it (yet). It's not a technical limitation, it's a legal one.

With the DMCA, they made it illegal to circumvent copy protection, so technically it's illegal to rip a DVD, too. I suspect Kaleidescape worked out some sort of licensing to do so, which might be one of the reasons it's so pricey.

Nevertheless, even if the Kaleidescape were only $230, I'd still choose the Apple TV.

The rentals/video podcasts/Flickr/YouTube capabilities are my most-used features on the Apple TV, and the Kaleidescape doesn't support any of that!

 

[Malfoy]

With the DMCA, they made it illegal to circumvent copy protection, so technically it's illegal to rip a DVD, too. I suspect Kaleidescape worked out some sort of licensing to do so, which might be one of the reasons it's so pricey.

Nevertheless, even if the Kaleidescape were only $230, I'd still choose the Apple TV.

The rentals/video podcasts/Flickr/YouTube capabilities are my most-used features on the Apple TV, and the Kaleidescape doesn't support any of that!

You'd pass on 32 TBs for 230??!?!







Note: I KNOW what you meant. I'm just giving you a had time.

 

[MikieMikie]

You can't rip blu ray because it's illegal to do so. They have legal permission to store normal DVD, but my understanding is that the encryption on blu ray cannot be "broken" without being in violation of the law.

I know that's a very contentious subject, but that's why they don't offer it (yet). It's not a technical limitation, it's a legal one.

Sorry. Here's some info.

http://www.kscapeowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236

Blu-Ray is (or will soon be) rippable by Kaleidoscope.

 

[BoulderBum]

You'd pass on 32 TBs for 230??!?!

Note: I KNOW what you meant. I'm just giving you a had time.

Well, maybe not for the resale value, but definately for the capabilities. I think the proper architecture for a digital home entertainment system is to have a scalable home NAS separate from the media streamer so, e.g. an HP MediaSmart Server storing content that gets streamed over the network to an Apple TV which simply serves as the interface to your video/music collection/portal to internet content.

 

[BoulderBum]

Sorry. Here's some info.

http://www.kscapeowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236

Blu-Ray is (or will soon be) rippable by Kaleidoscope.

See, THAT's a feature that would actually differentiate the Kaleidoscape from the Apple TV. Apple TV's limitation right now is HD quality content.

I still wouldn't pay $15,000 for such a system, though. I'm personally waiting for a good HD PC-to-TV technology which I consider more flexible, though not as well integrated.