A Couple DSLR Beginner Questions...

[SLC Flyfishing]

Nikon also has Auto ISO.

Yes but you misread my post, the K10D has ISO priority You can set the ISO you want to be shooting in, the camera selects the best aperture and shutter speed to to get you the proper exposure. As far as I know there aren't any other DSLR's anywhere on the market with this feature. It also has a multi exposure mode which I believe is unique to the camera, (I know the D80 didn't have it at least). I also don't remember the D80 having a dedicated RAW button which the K10D also has. I can be shooting jpeg, then switch to RAW just by pressing a small button (in the same spot as the bracket button on the D80) and then switch back when I feel like, all without taking the camera from my face.

Now admittedly, these extra features aren't necessarily things I'd make regular use of; but they do add to the whole experience overall. I guess I just appreciate that Pentax thinks of little things like this; it just goes to show that they have the end user in mind when they design a body, not just the performance specs that measurebation sites like DPreview.com swoon over.

The D80 is a great camera too don't get me wrong, there are tons of people who are very happy with them and for good reason. I'm just one of the few who was less than impressed, I'm very choosy about my equipment, that's also why I switched to Macintosh this year. If Pentax didn't have the K10D or something like it, and a bunch of bitchin' prime lenses (which I also prefer) I'd still be shooting Nikon, probably a D80 or D200. Nikon runs a close 2nd for me personally, it's not a knock, just a personal observation/experience, which is all I can contribute to these boards in the end right?

SLC

 

[OreoCookie]

Yes but you misread my post, the K10D has ISO priority You can set the ISO you want to be shooting in, the camera selects the best aperture and shutter speed to to get you the proper exposure.

Ok, thanks for the info. Doesn't sound particularly useful, though, it's essentially just a flavor of P -- a mode I only use when I hand the camera over to friends to take a snapshot. Automatic ISO and all this is not a match for the intelligence of a human being, that's just my opinion, though.

I also don't remember the D80 having a dedicated RAW button which the K10D also has. I can be shooting jpeg, then switch to RAW just by pressing a small button (in the same spot as the bracket button on the D80) and then switch back when I feel like, all without taking the camera from my face.

The D80 has a dedicated quality button left to the screen. You can toggle through the different modes by the dials.

Not that you get me wrong now: I think most of the `new' features on cameras these days are not really useful features. On the other hand, there are things, that aren't really features, but have a much more decided impact on usability and the overall `feel' to the camera. The AF has gotten so quick on even entry-level cameras, the metering so good, that you can't judge cameras by how well they meter anymore -- the differences are subtle and often boil down to a matter of taste. Entry-level dslrs can shoot at 3 fps -- more than enough for all I need. Anything above that is just for bragging rights

I tried Sony's new alpha 700 last weekend, and I was pleasantly surprised. The sales rep (trying to pitch his lines) complimented me on `how well I found my way through the menus and the camera buttons' -- which isn't really difficult, considering it's a good UI design.
I haven't laid my hands on the K10D yet, but from the looks of it, I could instantly get acquainted with it, too. The only cameras that don't play nicely with my way of thinking are Canons. Canons and Oreos do not mix, apparently. If I had some cash lying around, I would be tempted by Olympus' E-3 as well. When I bought the D80, I started my lens collection from scratch again (my previous dslr, an Olympus E-20, had a fixed lens), so all options were on the table.

Congrats and enjoy your camera, though.

 

[compuwar]

Yes but you misread my post, the K10D has ISO priority You can set the ISO you want to be shooting in, the camera selects the best aperture and shutter speed to to get you the proper exposure. As far as I know there aren't any other DSLR's anywhere on the market with this feature. It also has a multi exposure mode which I believe is unique to the camera, (I know the D80 didn't have it at least).

"P" mode on any Nikon SLR/DSLR for at least the last 19 or so years has worked that way- you set the ISO, the camera picks the shutter speed and aperture. You can also rotate the command dial to override the camera's selection, and it'll move up or down in aperture, adjusting the shutter speed accordingly to keep the same exposure value. This has been true since at least the F-801 body release in 1988. so yes, the D80 actually does work that way- you can read about it on page 47 of the D80 manual referenced above. I recall on my 8008s it was actually labeled P with a subscripted D for Program, Dual. Now it's referenced as Prorammed Auto mode in the Nikon manuals.

I'm pretty sure Canon has a similar mode, though I've only shot them in aperture mode.

The D80 has a multiple exposure mode as well, covered on pages 84-85 of said manual.

 

[termina3]

pages 84-85 of said manual.

creepy… you know the manual page for page!

 

[compuwar]

creepy… you know the manual page for page!

Because I checked the PDF.

 

[JFreak]

How is this relevant? Of all digital cameras I have used the user can choose ISO or aperture or shutter speed and let the camera calculate the other two giving priority to either one. Or even simpler, choose two and calculate the third.

I see this as a non-issue.

 

[SLC Flyfishing]

"P" mode on any Nikon SLR/DSLR for at least the last 19 or so years has worked that way- you set the ISO, the camera picks the shutter speed and aperture. You can also rotate the command dial to override the camera's selection, and it'll move up or down in aperture, adjusting the shutter speed accordingly to keep the same exposure value. This has been true since at least the F-801 body release in 1988. so yes, the D80 actually does work that way- you can read about it on page 47 of the D80 manual referenced above. I recall on my 8008s it was actually labeled P with a subscripted D for Program, Dual. Now it's referenced as Prorammed Auto mode in the Nikon manuals.

I'm pretty sure Canon has a similar mode, though I've only shot them in aperture mode.

The D80 has a multiple exposure mode as well, covered on pages 84-85 of said manual.

Yeah, P mode is very widespread, I've got it on my wife's old Pentax 35 mm SLR too.

The P mode exists on the K10D as well, and it functions the exact same way as the P mode of the Nikon, and I suspect the Canons and Sonys and Olys too. But the K10D has a setting on it's top dial called Sv which is "sensitivity priority" this setting allows you to change ISO on the fly with a rotation of the rear e-dial, the front e-dial works like it was in aperture priority mode. Basically with this setting I can make a change to any aspect of an exposure without moving the camera from my eye, which is the point I'm trying to make about why I prefer the K10D to the D80.

There's also a fun setting called TAv which is really shutter priority and aperture priority at the same time, you use the front command dial when you want to pick a certain shutter speed, and the rear command dial when you want to be choosy about aperture. I know I know, manual does the same thing which is obviously true, but with the K10D I don't have to go full manual to do these sorts of things if I don't want to. It's nice to be able to switch from aperture to shutter priority mode simply by altering which command dial I use.

But to answer JFreak, yes it is largely a non issue. I was just attempting to explain some of the reasons I made the decision I did, which turned into some minor misunderstanding.

SLC

 

[compuwar]

The P mode exists on the K10D as well, and it functions the exact same way as the P mode of the Nikon, and I suspect the Canons and Sonys and Olys too. But the K10D has a setting on it's top dial called Sv which is "sensitivity priority" this setting allows you to change ISO on the fly with a rotation of the rear e-dial, the front e-dial works like it was in aperture priority mode.

I guess I'm missing something here- with the Nikon, you hit the ISO button and rotate the command dial and you change ISO- if you're in one of the program modes, everything else adjusts accordingly. So in aperture priority, the only difference is that you'd have to hit the ISO button with your left thumb otherwise, it's exactly the same command-dial-wise (Main for ISO, front for aperture.)

There's also a fun setting called TAv which is really shutter priority and aperture priority at the same time, you use the front command dial when you want to pick a certain shutter speed, and the rear command dial when you want to be choosy about aperture.

Again, I must be missing something- in either aperture or shutter priority mode going "up" or "down" changes both- if you're at 5.6 & 1/60, if you change the shutter to 1/125, you're going to f/4, if you change it to 1/30 you're going to f/8. What does changing dials get you that I'm not seeing? Are you essentially in manual mode and are actively changing the exposure value on only one component at a time?

But to answer JFreak, yes it is largely a non issue. I was just attempting to explain some of the reasons I made the decision I did, which turned into some minor misunderstanding.

To be fair, your bad information on the pop-up flash, getting out of auto-ISO mode and multiple exposures make it fairly easy to misinterpret your understanding of the differences between the bodies. A lot of times direct comparisons with misinformation tend to come off looking like an attempt to re-validate a choice in pure fanboy terms, especially when you go from trying to harp about the value of lots of modes to harping about the lack of an automatic flash mode as a positive.

My point however is that despite small ergonomic differences, pretty much all the dSLRs have pretty-much the same shooting features. Ergonomics are so subjective that it's not as transferable from one person to another- for instance, I prefer the ergonomics of Nikon to Canon, but others equally valuably prefer things the other way around. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd want a bump of the rear command dial to change ISO, and you probably can't imagine a scenario where you'd want to use your left thumb to change it- we can both come up with equal arguments for and against any feature's implementation.

With all that said, ergonomics are important. If Apple put a two-button mouse on their laptops, they'd probably increase sales by several percent.

 

[SLC Flyfishing]

The TAv mode I mentioned just works like aperture priority and shutter priority modes at the same time. The front e-dial controls shutter speed, and if you are in TAv mode rotation of the front e-dial selects shutter speeds while automatically adjusting the aperture to compensate. Then at the same time you can rotate the rear e-dial and it functions like it was in aperture priority mode, adjusting the aperture and automatically changing the shutter to compensate. It's just a clever little scene mode that can be used to have both shutter and aperture priority modes active at the exact same time, so you can decide which value you need to be choosy about without having stop and change shooting modes on the main dial.

And again, it seems that perhaps the only difference between these two is the amount of control one has over the K10D without having to dig into the menu etc, which is what I was most impressed with.

SLC

 

[OreoCookie]

The TAv mode I mentioned just works like aperture priority and shutter priority modes at the same time. The front e-dial controls shutter speed, and if you are in TAv mode rotation of the front e-dial selects shutter speeds while automatically adjusting the aperture to compensate.

Sounds like P on a Nikon (rather P with shift) which I have had on all my Nikon slrs (digital or otherwise). I'm not sure whether my Olympus E-20 had P shift, because I don't use P to take pictures. P will suggest a combination of shutter speed and aperture and you simply use the two dials to change either one of them.

 

[RaceTripper]

+1 for the ergonomics of the Nikon.

My D200 is very easy to use. Personally I'm glad it doesn't have all the special program modes. I mostly shoot either shutter priority (for motorsports) or aperture (for just about everything else), and I put it into P if I hand it to someone else. ISO is a breeze to change, and it even has a ISO priority mode (which I never use), but the ISO dial is a breeze to use anyway.

But damn, I wish I could get a D300....