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GSWForever8

macrumors 6502a
Apr 10, 2021
530
497
They are not locking them up. They are foregoing safety encodings user-replaceable batteries have in order to deliver a battery that has a much longer lifespan (up to 3 times longer than what’s normal on the market). Since Apple works with battery cells directly, replacing the battery without special tools and training can be very dangerous.

Do you really prefer a user replaceable battery that you have to swap every 1.5 years to one that only a technician can swap but that would last you 4-5 years? Which will end up cheaper in the long run, what do you think?
Well, battery is cheap, but the logicboard is quite pricey… if we can’t service, then Apple should at least lower the prices of the repairs.

I still use Apple products, but they can for sure lower the prices of a repair that cost more than a new MacBook.
 

zakarhino

Contributor
Sep 13, 2014
2,607
6,958
This is one of the coolest pieces of tech I've ever seen. THIS IS HOW ALL LAPTOPS NEED TO BE! As mentioned in Linus' video there's no excuse for Apple not to implement some of the approaches of this product such as not gluing in the battery, AT THE VERY LEAST FFS!!!

I'm 100% going to pick one up as a linux laptop companion to my desktop. So f***ing awesome. I hope to support this company and promote the hell out of them to everyone I know.
 
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Blue Quark

macrumors regular
Oct 25, 2020
196
147
Probabilistic
They are not locking them up. They are foregoing safety encodings user-replaceable batteries have in order to deliver a battery that has a much longer lifespan (up to 3 times longer than what’s normal on the market). Since Apple works with battery cells directly, replacing the battery without special tools and training can be very dangerous.

Do you really prefer a user replaceable battery that you have to swap every 1.5 years to one that only a technician can swap but that would last you 4-5 years? Which will end up cheaper in the long run, what do you think?
To your first point: Oh, yes they are. The tech industry is still very much like the railroad and steel industries, heck even the stock market, of the 1800s and early 1900s, where more or less you can get away with whatever you like since there aren't laws to prevent it.

To your second point: That entirely depends on the brand and model, with many batteries available for <$50 (~€42). Three years ago a friend of mine who had a Toshiba laptop (I believe it was a Toshiba) bought a replacement battery for something like $30 or $40, with there being like two or three different capacities available at respective price points. I've replaced the battery in my MBP twice, each time for less than $60, IIRC.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
To your first point: Oh, yes they are. The tech industry is still very much like the railroad and steel industries, heck even the stock market, of the 1800s and early 1900s, where more or less you can get away with whatever you like since there aren't laws to prevent it.

I have explained to you a technical reason why Apple batteries are not user-serviceable. Can they make them user-serviceable? Certainly. But not without compromising the size/weight of the laptop, since the protective battery housing is not necessarily compact.

So no, they are not locking anything down for the sake of it. It's a design tradeoff, one that I personally consider more than reasonable. I am perfectly fine with giving up the option for user-serviceability if I can actually get a better product in return. And given that these Macs sell like hot cake, it seems that the majority of the users agree.

To your second point: That entirely depends on the brand and model, with many batteries available for <$50 (~€42). Three years ago a friend of mine who had a Toshiba laptop (I believe it was a Toshiba) bought a replacement battery for something like $30 or $40, with there being like two or three different capacities available at respective price points. I've replaced the battery in my MBP twice, each time for less than $60, IIRC.

What battery technology, size, expected lifespan etc. are we talking about here?
 
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GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,124
2,706
What battery technology, size, expected lifespan etc. are we talking about here?
I've seen plenty of these cheap replacements for failing batteries and can say at least the lifespan of those is nowhere near the original, which is of course more expensive (not only Apple, but everyone).
 

RedTheReader

macrumors 6502a
Nov 18, 2019
531
1,311
Not by that time everyone has moved to Zen 5 and Intel Meteor Lake
What’s fantastic about this machine is that they even intend for the CPU to be upgradeable through the mainboard. The problem I see popping up is one of price. It's obvious to anyone who's tried to configure and buy one of these that they sell components for near cost, with slim margins, but even with that, Intel's CPU's are expensive. When you're facing $400 to $500 for a new mainboard, you start to wonder whether you'd have been any worse off just selling your standard soldered ultrabook and buying a new model.
 

crashnburn

macrumors 6502
Nov 18, 2009
468
28
Love the modular build. Hope it picks up in mainstream markets - Especially with its "Eco / Green" extensibility - it should target Big Orgs for "Green" points.
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,124
2,706
Glue as in soldering.
Well, let's go back to user replaceable tubes then. Pros/Cons have already been pointed out. And I still don't see the point.
What’s fantastic about this machine is that they even intend for the CPU to be upgradeable through the mainboard.
Uhm, so Apple/Dell/Lenovo/etc. have upgradeable CPU as well, simply by replacing the mainboard?!?
 

RedTheReader

macrumors 6502a
Nov 18, 2019
531
1,311
Uhm, so Apple/Dell/Lenovo/etc. have upgradeable CPU as well, simply by replacing the mainboard?!?
I know you're just joking around, but come on! In theory, of course any laptop can be upgraded with a new mainboard, but in practice, you know that none of those companies will sell you one. Framework will. That's the difference. Being able to actually just buy the new component you need instead of having to sell the entire machine and buy a new one.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
I know you're just joking around, but come on! In theory, of course any laptop can be upgraded with a new mainboard, but in practice, you know that none of those companies will sell you one. Framework will. That's the difference. Being able to actually just buy the new component you need instead of having to sell the entire machine and buy a new one.

On the other hand, replaceable mainboard means that you cannot optimize the power supply, which again means efficiency losses. Don't get me wrong, I think what Framework is doing is cool and all, and there are plenty of users that want this kind of product. It's just that one should not forget that this kind of modularity absolutely comes at a cost. So while I get all the "Framework laptop is cool!" hype, I cannot agree with the "Apple should do the same" sentiment. The very reason why Apple laptops are not user-replaceable is because they take component optimization to extreme. Which is also a very valid way to design a product.
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,124
2,706
In theory, of course any laptop can be upgraded with a new mainboard, but in practice, you know that none of those companies will sell you one. Framework will. That's the difference. Being able to actually just buy the new component you need instead of having to sell the entire machine and buy a new one.
Well, that's not really true. Any service provider should be able to order these parts for you as replacement. If they sell it to you is another story, but I've seen sold mainboards and other replacement parts from Apple, Dell and Lenovo in the past.

Given the history of the guy behind Framework, you probably won't be able to buy anything from them in two or three years either.
 

RedTheReader

macrumors 6502a
Nov 18, 2019
531
1,311
It's just that one should not forget that this kind of modularity absolutely comes at a cost.
Yup, there's no denying that. For example, I noticed that the machine comes with 3200MHz memory. The memory in my 2020 MacBook Pro 13" is 500MHz faster than that, and keep in mind that my machine is a generation old. The Tiger Lake ultrabooks out there are up to 4266MHz. Maybe Framework just couldn't source memory that fast and there's nothing more to it, but it's something that caught my eye.
If they sell it to you is another story
They usually don't. That's what I meant.
Given the history of the guy behind Framework, you probably won't be able to buy anything from them in two or three years either.
Oh, that's interesting. I haven't heard anything about his past projects. What's up?
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
Yup, there's no denying that. For example, I noticed that the machine comes with 3200MHz memory. The memory in my 2020 MacBook Pro 13" is 500MHz faster than that, and keep in mind that my machine is a generation old. The Tiger Lake ultrabooks out there are up to 4266MHz. Maybe Framework just couldn't source memory that fast, but it it's just something that caught my eye.

It’s because premium ultrabooks in that price range use LPDDR5 and Framework uses regular DDR4 for user-serviceability (LPDDR5 does not come in modules). This has a small impact on performance and a largeish impact on battery life.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
Given the history of the guy behind Framework, you probably won't be able to buy anything from them in two or three years either.

Even if you will, the entire premise of upgradeability is massively overblown.

Let’s say you want to upgrade your Framework laptop after two years to something more modern, like the Intel Meteor Lake. So you spend $700+ on a new mainboard and $100+ on a new DDR5 RAM. Great, right? But you still have an old laptop with most of it out of warranty, your battery life is crap (so add $60-10l for a new one) etc.

Or you could sell your old MacBook Air for $400-500 and get a new one for $1400 or so (total cost essentially the same) and get a complete new machine with warranty, new display tech, three times longer battery life, likely better performance and so on. So… why would you even bother with competent upgradeability if the end eff3ct is objectively worse?
 
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Cubytus

macrumors 65816
Mar 2, 2007
1,436
18
A configurable laptop with no option to configure keyboard or battery capacity?

And what about the paltry 1-year warranty?
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
with no option to configure keyboard
Actually that is coming
1627950552256.png

or battery capacity?
I don't know the specs but the battery is is taking up all the space so I don't think there's room for a larger battery.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
It would be neat to be able to customize the silkscreening for your key caps though.
No question, but given that sort of thing is quite specialized and rare, I doubt it will a service. I think drop offers that or at least batches of various customized keys.

Please keep in mind the work effort to implement such a customization and how niche that work will be. I'm pretty sure the cost will far exceed any sort of revenue they'd see.
 
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GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,124
2,706
Oh, that's interesting. I haven't heard anything about his past projects. What's up?
The usual, he always has an idea, is looking for someone supporting/financing that idea, brings people in who actually build it and then abandons the whole thing to move onto the next "big thing".
It would be neat to be able to customize the silkscreening for your key caps though.
No rotary encoder? Pff... and they call it a modular laptop. This is a proper keyboard:
IMG_20200126_114622.jpg
 

RedTheReader

macrumors 6502a
Nov 18, 2019
531
1,311
They should offer a non-removable battery so people can pick a higher capacity instead of forcing everyone to take lower capacity 😂
As others in this thread have pointed out, a tightly integrated machine will often be able to have a bigger battery, but that's because the entire system's tightly integrated. From my understanding, taking an otherwise modular laptop and making only the battery non-removable won't make it bigger.
 
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