A look at MBP after the Surface Pro event

[mrex]

I'd say the purpose of this post is to point out the apparent double standards. People cry that Apple's notebooks are underperforming, but when competitors release laptops that exclusively use 15W CPU and lack

... of this and that. but...

with windows you have multiple choices.

if you dont like MS, buy something else you like. if you dont like desktops that are available, build yourself exactly the one you want... you really dont have these choises with osx. so compairing osx machines and windows machines is like compairing rocks and all variable of vegetations... (please dont be pedant and tell that there are differend kinds of rocks!)

 

[macjunk(ie)]

...
And, it's like some of you guys are happy that any Apple product is worse at something than X. See, it's better than an iPad, it's better than a MacBook, it's better than a MacBook Air!! I mean, it's a great device, I am actually thinking of getting one - but I can't shake the feeling that this rooting for MS is a part of some narrative that some people are trying to push here.

....

Not me. I am disappointed that I cannot recommend Apple to anyone like I did before. In my family, I was the apple that poisoned everyone else. There are at least a dozen members of my family who bought into the Mac because I convinced them to. Most of them later got the iPhones to experience the synergy. Same with a few of my friends. This was until two years ago. And not one is unhappy about their purchase.

Today, it is a different equation. My wife's Pro shut off...5 years running. I am pretty sure it is a graphic issue (BTW: that brings the number of Apple laptops I have lost to 4 now - since 2007). No more warranty and the local Apple service centre showed me the door. I decided to get her a new laptop. I did give her the option of the 13 MBP but she did not like the price. So she picked a Thinkpad 13 and could not be happier! I paid 1200 SGD for 16GB, 256GB SSD and a 7500U and with a 3 year warranty. The same Apple config costs nearly 3500! Love OSX but is it worth 2 grand? Not for me. How is the Thinkpad? Damn impressive so far I should say. The build quality is great. So much so that I keep reminding myself that I paid 1200 for it! I am super excited for my Yoga that is coming today!

But it is not the question of affordability but it is a question of how Apple makes me feel today. I think Apple thinks that their followers will take anything they throw at them. And it looks like many do (as evidenced by the popularity of the MBP 2016). Good for Apple! Not me though...e.g., the touch bar, to me was insulting. I don't want it but yet I am forced to pay nearly a grand for it in the 15 MBP. The soldered components was another turn off. I have to pay the ridiculous upgrade prices Apple wants now.

The touch bar, IMO, is another manifestation of Schiller's 'can't innovate my a**'. No one asked for it but they did it just to show off. Just like they did with the Mac Pro. What is revolting to me is when I visit the Apple homepage, it shows the MBP and says: "A touch of genius"! So full of itself!

 

[SteveJUAE]

Liking the new Surface Pro; to me Microsoft are simply offering a lot of permutations, from basic educational use to high spec ultrabook. You also have to account for the OS as well as Windows 10 is designed to run on much lower level hardware, so for some 4Gb will be more than adequate.

Pen as an additional purchase, not a fan of that, think it should be in the box, although it does look to be a significant improvement on previous. Port situation is pretty much the same, with the Surface dock offering expansion, something Apple should have offered with the MBP from day one. For most business types USB C currently offers little more than inconvenience and I suspect education similarly. USB C is still in it's infancy can does present issues, undoubtedly it's the future, however for those needing to deliver "now" from my own experience of over two years of using USB C it remains to be problematic, even with Apple's own adaptors & dongles.

I will certainly be looking at one as a replacement for my outgoing Retina MacBook, sadly last of my Mac's used professionally thx to Apple's predominant consumer focus, equally give the few who are using the Mac professionally I can see Apple's point as they need to sell units. Clearly Surface Pro is compromised as are all portables, equally as such it's not a bad compromise as long as your usage matches the devices capabilities.

As for the "Pro" term near meaningless these days, solely sales and marketing and or a differentiator between tiers. A true professional chooses the hardware that meets their needs, not something with "Pro" slapped on the box, that's just for the regular customers Personally I was pleased when at one point Apple dropped the "MacBook Pro" off the bezel as it pure 80"s "cheese" at best...

Also interested to see where Microsoft goes with the Surface Book, as an owner and user in a professional environment, very impressed, new Surface Pro is certainly encouraging Right now Surface Book is too heavy to be classed as an Ultraportable, yet it offers features few others match...

Yes I agree some seem to fail to see the broader spectrum offerings from MS which the OS allows that do not overly exclude users at the extremities high or low spec

I understand the price has been adjusted for the exclusion of the pen which is now colour coded it also avoids the issue of mismatching

Whilst soldered on SSD's is a disappointment as the SP was never a serviceable clamshell I'm not sure they really took anything away from the user

Similarly with USB if the port is only being used as USB 3 the only advantage of USB C has is ease of plugging in else all the remarks that justify a USB C device to legacy re get a cable or an adapter is just the reversed lol

Some nice improvements with hinge and battery endurance plus spec bump

Sure OS aside if you only like clamshells it's not for you else pick your spec to suit your needs or budget and get a good laptop that essentially comes with a free high spec tablet that can run the most extensive selection of software

 

[aevan]

Yes I agree some seem to fail to see the broader spectrum offerings from MS which the OS allows that do not overly exclude users at the extremities high or low spec

I understand the price has been adjusted for the exclusion of the pen which is now colour coded it also avoids the issue of mismatching

Whilst soldered on SSD's is a disappointment as the SP was never a serviceable clamshell I'm not sure they really took anything away from the user

Similarly with USB if the port is only being used as USB 3 the only advantage of USB C has is ease of plugging in else all the remarks that justify a USB C device to legacy re get a cable or an adapter is just the reversed lol

Some nice improvements with hinge and battery endurance plus spec bump

Sure OS aside if you only like clamshells it's not for you else pick your spec to suit your needs or budget and get a good laptop that essentially comes with a free high spec tablet that can run the most extensive selection of software

I agree, I don't thing Microsoft did anything wrong there (even though 8Gb RAM should be minimum for every price range, but ok). I'm just saying people are more critical towards Apple even though they make very similar devices (in terms of specs).

I guess people are harsh on the Surface computers at some Microsoft forums

 

[MadDane]

A few months ago I picked up a used SP3 with i7, 512 GB SSD and 8 GB RAM (highest spec SP3). Before that I used to have a 13" MBP and an iPad Air 2. Right after I sold my MBP+iPad I actually got a 2016 15" MBP but that quickly got sold again (but that is another story).

I genuinely love my SP3. It is a truly awesome device. I work as an engineer, spending a lot of time in SolidWorks at my work. I have also been running SolidWorks on my SP3 and, although it requires a bit of patience, it is perfectly capable of doing it. And that is the thing for me. Why would I want a laptop + a tablet when I can have it all in one device? My usage is probably 90% laptop, 10% tablet so for me I feel like the Surface Pro is perfect for me.

And I can see that I am not alone in this

 

[Queen6]

I guess people are harsh on the Surface computers at some Microsoft forums

Exactly, and a point worth considering. People are highly critical of Apple as Apple is not meeting their expectations based on their needs & experience, equally no company can please all...

Q-6
[doublepost=1495698770][/doublepost]

A few months ago I picked up a used SP3 with i7, 512 GB SSD and 8 GB RAM (highest spec SP3). Before that I used to have a 13" MBP and an iPad Air 2. Right after I sold my MBP+iPad I actually got a 2016 15" MBP but that quickly got sold again (but that is another story).

I genuinely love my SP3. It is a truly awesome device. I work as an engineer, spending a lot of time in SolidWorks at my work. I have also been running SolidWorks on my SP3 and, although it requires a bit of patience, it is perfectly capable of doing it. And that is the thing for me. Why would I want a laptop + a tablet when I can have it all in one device? My usage is probably 90% laptop, 10% tablet so for me I feel like the Surface Pro is perfect for me.

And I can see that I am not alone in this

You not Apple failed to deliver with the 2016 MBP`s, switched 13" MBP to a Surface Book, never looked back. Similar my systems are employed in an engineering role with 85% notebook, 15% tablet split. Surface Book for me is simply a far more flexible & productive machine. If Microsoft does deliver on battery runtime, with the new Surface Pro I may very well pick one up as well, replacing my Retina MacBook as my business traveler...

Q-6

 

[leman]

So she picked a Thinkpad 13 and could not be happier! I paid 1200 SGD for 16GB, 256GB SSD and a 7500U and with a 3 year warranty. The same Apple config costs nearly 3500!

The "comparable" Apple config costs $1999 (non-TB 13" MBP with 16GB RAM and i7 CPU). It also gets you a much better screen, higher-tier GPU (altho the difference is moot due to Kaby Lake advances), high-speed connectivity, and a substantially longer battery runtime. What I am trying to say here is that your comparison is misplaced. The Lenovo is a nice budget laptop but it doesn't come even close to the MBP in terms of hardware components, features or manufacturing costs.

 

[SteveJUAE]

I agree, I don't thing Microsoft did anything wrong there (even though 8Gb RAM should be minimum for every price range, but ok). I'm just saying people are more critical towards Apple even though they make very similar devices (in terms of specs).

I guess people are harsh on the Surface computers at some Microsoft forums

Yes 8gb would of been preferable as would USB-C. the SP4 did get a bashing on the hibernate bug and of course its Achilles heel of battery endurance but this was the laptop and not the company perceived strategy to the user where many are more vocal on Apple

I think Apple did take a good bit of bashing on the MBP lesser on the rMB which is often misunderstood IMO but it was quite clear the more narrow focus on the largest user group ie they clipped of the lower tier wannabie owners with a larger entry point price and the upper tier owners who wanted more or expandability in a flagship model

No doubt some clever accountant done the numbers and it may well be a small % of potential customers vs real costs but there were enough to make a significant postings on the subject including those that bought but were disgruntled as they had no choice if you wish to stay with Macos

I'm always amazed how some OEM's like Lenovo seem to turn out almost endless variants each year yet Apple keep you dangling with little options to up or down I'm sure many would still be on MBA for the want of a screen update

Personally I think its a bit of a kick in the teeth if there is an upgrade so soon on the MBP even if its only a small increment

I think the SP is a clever device covering a very wide spectrum once you get pass it's not a clamshell and its 90% laptop and 10% tablet or more if you choose the battery and pen arguments are effectively muted now and if the SB gets a good upgrade with some higher tier options then this too would help to confirm MS commitment to regular and worthy upgrades that users want.

 

[aevan]

Personally I think its a bit of a kick in the teeth if there is an upgrade so soon on the MBP even if its only a small increment

Heh, well, one of the biggest criticisms was that Apple took too long to update Macs to current specs. It has been 7 months since the current MBP came out and this will be a very minor spec update, I don't think it's bad. In fact, I think it's great - people who already have the new MBP will be fine because the new MBP will only be a couple of % better, and people looking to buy a MBP will get one with the latest CPU.

 

[lowendlinux]

I didn't read they reduced the size of Surface Pro, but if it's the same or similar as Surface Pro 4, it's not just as portable. MacBook is a lot smaller.

And, it's like some of you guys are happy that any Apple product is worse at something than X. See, it's better than an iPad, it's better than a MacBook, it's better than a MacBook Air!! I mean, it's a great device, I am actually thinking of getting one - but I can't shake the feeling that this rooting for MS is a part of some narrative that some people are trying to push here.

It's just Microsoft made a cool device that will be great for a lot of people, especially artists. There are people who will find a MacBook more useful, and there are people who will find a Surface Pro more useful.

Base model of Surface Pro uses core-m, btw.

I think the rooting for MS is because for years MS wasn't doing anything interesting and now they are.

===

When I think of the surface I don't think laptop I thing tablet especially since everything to make it a laptop is sold separately. I really don't know how good or bad of a tablet it really is nor do I care that much since tablets aren't my thing so it's mostly academic.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

The "comparable" Apple config costs $1999 (non-TB 13" MBP with 16GB RAM and i7 CPU). It also gets you a much better screen, higher-tier GPU (altho the difference is moot due to Kaby Lake advances), high-speed connectivity, and a substantially longer battery runtime. What I am trying to say here is that your comparison is misplaced. The Lenovo is a nice budget laptop but it doesn't come even close to the MBP in terms of hardware components, features or manufacturing costs.

The currency in my post is Singapore dollar. Have a look at Apple.com.sg. The MBP has the screen, the insanely fast drive and the unibody construction.

Out of all the above, I only miss the display( apart from OSX). The Lenovo is not half bad though. Display is FHD. It has a USB C and USB ports. I am consistently getting all day battery life from the laptop. Not bad at all for a laptop costing a third.

 

[jeremiah256]

I'm guessing, this is not completely about specs.

For a long time, Microsoft was the bad guy. Trying to stomp out competitors, massive reputation damage due to vulnerabilities to malware, poor UX/UI decisions, crazy CEO, stupid ads, and plain ugly hardware made them unsympathetic. Fairly recently, they've changed. Their software is more cross-platform, they are more security conscious, they've got much better advertising, leadership has improved, and they've stepped up their UX and hardware game. Good job.

During that time period, we Apple users may have become a wee bit smug. Just yesterday, while working on a project, I demonstrated copy and paste between iOS devices, acting like it was no big thing for a Mac user, but yeah, I enjoyed their WTF when I did it.

Just my opinion, but much of this is a, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi Apple. At last we will have our revenge" kind of thing going on. The back and forth is normal and needed.

 

[aevan]

Just my opinion, but much of this is a, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi Apple. At last we will have our revenge" kind of thing going on. The back and forth is normal and needed.

Hahahah, good one, sir.

And yes - copy paste thing is great. I love all those continuity features.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Heh, well, one of the biggest criticisms was that Apple took too long to update Macs to current specs. It has been 7 months since the current MBP came out and this will be a very minor spec update, I don't think it's bad. In fact, I think it's great - people who already have the new MBP will be fine because the new MBP will only be a couple of % better, and people looking to buy a MBP will get one with the latest CPU.

I agree but you know how fickle the critics can be
[doublepost=1495794260][/doublepost]

Just yesterday, while working on a project, I demonstrated copy and paste between iOS devices, acting like it was no big thing for a Mac user, but yeah, I enjoyed their WTF when I did it..

Come on chaps you know this is just clickbait trivia

 

[DeepIn2U]

...
I think Apple did take a good bit of bashing on the MBP lesser on the rMB which is often misunderstood IMO but it was quite clear the more narrow focus on the largest user group ie they clipped of the lower tier wannabie owners with a larger entry point price and the upper tier owners who wanted more or expandability in a flagship model

No doubt some clever accountant done the numbers and it may well be a small % of potential customers vs real costs but there were enough to make a significant postings on the subject including those that bought but were disgruntled as they had no choice if you wish to stay with Macos

I'm always amazed how some OEM's like Lenovo seem to turn out almost endless variants each year yet Apple keep you dangling with little options to up or down I'm sure many would still be on MBA for the want of a screen update

Personally I think its a bit of a kick in the teeth if there is an upgrade so soon on the MBP even if its only a small increment

I think the SP is a clever device covering a very wide spectrum once you get pass it's not a clamshell and its 90% laptop and 10% tablet or more if you choose the battery and pen arguments are effectively muted now and if the SB gets a good upgrade with some higher tier options then this too would help to confirm MS commitment to regular and worthy upgrades that users want.

First bolded text:
Why is it so many Mac users make this statement that that currnet MBP_USBC has a larger entry point? Do you guys even remember the cost of the PowerBook G4 Titanium, which HAD connectivity galore?! Apparantly not ... that entry price was $2699/2899CAN at the time and it's the same pricing now. In fact ever NEW model design of their "pro" laptops using that moniker has jumped in price! You can search back 15yrs to see this.

Second bolded text:
You've already said it best ... Numbers .... quite simply Lenovo has a LOT more sales per unit per model then Apple has. It's just just consumers/prosumers but also corporations in mass bulk that are ordering their sku's! And for the ThinkPad T/X series the pricing is almost as bad (resolution, SSD/RAM, and performance sku matching). Only per authorized vendor at this time of year when production halts for a new model in the lineup are you ever going to save on costs.

Back on Topic:
Regarding this Tablet debate I have to say if it wasn't for Apple's iPad Microsoft STILL would be issuing WinCE and Windows NT/Win8/Win10 junk version of tablets! I honestly don't think outside of HP pushing their tablet convertible thick sized machines that any other manufacture shipped a Win7 tablet prior to the iPad launch!

What seems to be scary pattern is when Microsoft kicks Apple's but in terms of SW/HW ... Apple takes about 3 iterations to get it right/perfect to best them (smartphone the main difference here) while it takes 1 beating from Apple and Microsoft goes gangbusters:

M$ > Apple = Mouse
- MS issues a multi-button mouse, Apple 'Puck' 'Pro Mouse' (looked nice big improvement LED tracking, WIRED).
A: Then finally gesture based TrackPad and Mouse = utterly PERFECT. I don't game on PC too expensive and senseless for even gameplay online ... that's just me.

Apple > M$ = IPad/Tablet done right
Apple KILLED Microsoft with the Tablet, so badly almost a year NO new Tablet's or hybrids where made and even for 2yrs after the first and second iPad none of the competition got anything close. Apple reaped the bounty of booty (dinero) on this! Filled there coffers!
MS: Comes back with the Surface, Surface Table, and now HoloLens!

Apple > M$ = Virtual Assistant
Apple makes a bold insightful move into the future with Siri!
MS: 4yrs later ... Siri has a few improvements and tie-ins but Microsoft's Cortana really gets to the core of functionality and still improving!
* Apple get the FUNK off your laurels already with the purchasing. Get THIS DONE MODERN happening NOW you've had 4yr lead and your nose is bleeding on getting beat-up here!
Q ? : What happened to the Apple+IBM partnership why isn't Siri hooked into Watson!?

Apple>M$ = Smartphones:
- MS was lazy with PPC-PE/SmartPhone with C++/.Net based OS
- M$ follows up with Win8/10 and just wastes money - big loss.

 

[SteveJUAE]

First bolded text:
Why is it so many Mac users make this statement that that currnet MBP_USBC has a larger entry point? Do you guys even remember the cost of the PowerBook G4 Titanium, which HAD connectivity galore?! Apparantly not ... that entry price was $2699/2899CAN at the time and it's the same pricing now. In fact ever NEW model design of their "pro" laptops using that moniker has jumped in price! You can search back 15yrs to see this.

Second bolded text:
You've already said it best ... Numbers .... quite simply Lenovo has a LOT more sales per unit per model then Apple has. It's just just consumers/prosumers but also corporations in mass bulk that are ordering their sku's! And for the ThinkPad T/X series the pricing is almost as bad (resolution, SSD/RAM, and performance sku matching). Only per authorized vendor at this time of year when production halts for a new model in the lineup are you ever going to save on costs.

Back on Topic:
Regarding this Tablet debate I have to say if it wasn't for Apple's iPad Microsoft STILL would be issuing WinCE and Windows NT/Win8/Win10 junk version of tablets! I honestly don't think outside of HP pushing their tablet convertible thick sized machines that any other manufacture shipped a Win7 tablet prior to the iPad launch!

What seems to be scary pattern is when Microsoft kicks Apple's but in terms of SW/HW ... Apple takes about 3 iterations to get it right/perfect to best them (smartphone the main difference here) while it takes 1 beating from Apple and Microsoft goes gangbusters:

M$ > Apple = Mouse
- MS issues a multi-button mouse, Apple 'Puck' 'Pro Mouse' (looked nice big improvement LED tracking, WIRED).
A: Then finally gesture based TrackPad and Mouse = utterly PERFECT. I don't game on PC too expensive and senseless for even gameplay online ... that's just me.

Apple > M$ = IPad/Tablet done right
Apple KILLED Microsoft with the Tablet, so badly almost a year NO new Tablet's or hybrids where made and even for 2yrs after the first and second iPad none of the competition got anything close. Apple reaped the bounty of booty (dinero) on this! Filled there coffers!
MS: Comes back with the Surface, Surface Table, and now HoloLens!

Apple > M$ = Virtual Assistant
Apple makes a bold insightful move into the future with Siri!
MS: 4yrs later ... Siri has a few improvements and tie-ins but Microsoft's Cortana really gets to the core of functionality and still improving!
* Apple get the FUNK off your laurels already with the purchasing. Get THIS DONE MODERN happening NOW you've had 4yr lead and your nose is bleeding on getting beat-up here!
Q ? : What happened to the Apple+IBM partnership why isn't Siri hooked into Watson!?

Apple>M$ = Smartphones:
- MS was lazy with PPC-PE/SmartPhone with C++/.Net based OS
- M$ follows up with Win8/10 and just wastes money - big loss.

The reason "Why is it so many Mac users make this statement that that currnet MBP_USBC has a larger entry point?" is because its true if you check even adjusted for inflation with the exception of 2012 peak when all MacBook Pros got retina the entry level MBP's were same or lower than their 1st release date in 2015 until this year (2016). Even the peak of 2012 rapidly fell back down to lower than conception price (other than top tier 13" MBP) and strangely enough only the Top tier 15" MBP remains under it's original cost in 2006 despite it's extra hike

Source http://apple-history.com/

I note this has nothing to do with spec comparisons just the price you have to pay to use an Apple MBP

 

[convergent]

Why does it matter that a minimum configuration is lower than what you'd want, as long as they offer configurations with greater specs? Pro = professional = business use. Pro users can have greater or lesser needs depending on what type of professional they are. The new Surface Pro (which I've got on order) appears to be a broad upgrade to the Surface Pro 4 in nearly every way, and if they weren't selling 4G versions, they'd probably quit offering them.

On the complaint about the pen being separate, how exactly would they handle offering it in the box when they have 4 different colors. It would give them 5 times as many SKUs or they could do something silly like Apple does with the watch and pick certain colors for certain SKUs and make you end up buying 2 if you didn't like the combination they bundled in the box. I believe they are also saying that only 1/3 of their buyers use the pen. The older pen which is half the price is also compatible, so there is another option there as well.

With regard to USB-C and Thunderbolt 3. I jumped into the Thunderbolt space when I bought my MacBook Air and Thunderbolt Display. It was the only thing I ever bought TB, because as I looked a future devices the TB version was always way more expensive than USB3, for marginally better performance. After 7 years, I just sold my TB display and that is still the only thing I ever bought TB. There are people that need it, but its not the majority... and is it something you really need in a tablet. What ports does Apple have on their iPad Pro for connectivity??? Every device I have that I would connect to the SP is either USB-A or DisplayPort, so I'm good to go. And the Surface's dock port works very well for what it does.

Bottom line is that the SP isn't for everyone, but it is something that fits my use cases very well. The good part is there are plenty of Windows 10 alternatives. Competition is good. With Mac, you have one choice.