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Westside guy

macrumors 603
Oct 15, 2003
6,403
4,269
The soggy side of the Pacific NW
The sad truth is they don't have to. As long as they aren't making any money directly from the image, or they aren't claiming the image as their own creative work, they can post your image wherever they want too. (more technical stuff there though, like subject image portrayal etc.)

Well I should have been more clear. They were lifting entire web pages off my personal website, including text I'd written and photos I'd taken, and posted the entire page on their website.

With writing there is an implicit copyright that comes simply with the creation of the work - in the US anyway. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) the same was true of photographs.

Addendum: After reading the material on copyright.gov (posted by compuwar), I think my initial assumption was correct - I should have implicit copyright simply by taking the photo, just as I do when writing original text.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
Well I should have been more clear. They were lifting entire web pages off my personal website, including text I'd written and photos I'd taken, and posted the entire page on their website.

For future reference, Googling the term "DMCA takedown notice" may have helped you. You can get a US-based Web host to remove content with a takedown notice under most conditions.

Addendum: After reading the material on copyright.gov (posted by compuware), I think my initial assumption was correct - I should have implicit copyright simply by taking the photo, just as I do when writing original text.

Yep, same law and same rules.
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
No, sorry, but this is misinformation. In the United States, the image is copyrighted the moment you hit the shutter. Registration allows you to seek putative statutory damages instead of simply actual damages, makes ownership cases mostly a slam-dunk (there are exceptions) and may give you additional treaty rights under WIPO (I'm not sure about that.) In your case, work for hire changes WHO owns that copyright, but not when and how it's established.

I can understand the part about hitting the shutter, but in most cases the owner has to prove they are the ones hitting the shutter in the first place. Not that you aren't correct, or the regulations you quote in the bottom aren't true, but they aren't upheld as well as you'd think AND there is more to owning a copyright then "I took the photo".

Sorry, but (a) it isn't proof (I can put a watermark on any image I steal off your compuer- that doesn't "prove" it's mine any more than it "proves" it's yours. Also, you can certainly uncrop an image- depending on what's in the cropped part i can be simulated, manipulated or generated depending on skill, computing power available and the number of other images available. It's more difficult to do, but it's certainly not impossible.

Your right about "A" it isn't proof, but it's one way of preventing someone from stealing your image, like iStock Photos grotesque watermarks. And "B" is also correct, and goes along with the first statement. If I can't prove that I pressed the shutter button, what's my next line of defense? Pull out an original and complete work.

If you steal an image off of my computer, and it's a RAW file, and I am going to have a tough time proving it's mine unless there is metadata in the file that says it mine. Also, if the copyright is large enough, there is NO way you are going to put information back into a photo that either (a) was never there to begin with or (b) you had to completely crop out because of a large solid watermark. If so I can certainly hand you an image.

I'm pretty sure Aperture allows full EXIF viewing..

Not the image comment that the camera records and is extremely hard if not somewhat impossible to do. The only app that I can use to get that info is Photo Mechanic, which is why many journalists use it.

Not saying you're wrong, but copyright isn't as cut and dry as you make it seem. There are parts that deal with fair use or intellectual property, archiving for social purposes, and transfers of copyright. It applies to every photog out there, not just for hire, or journalists.

Then there are laws that deal solely with putting your image on the web, and in many cases that strips you of your exclusivity solely because you placed it in an undisclosed (still in debate) domain where everything is up for grabs.

The laws change if you take a photo in a public place, or where the person is the sole subject, or of children, or of public figures. The safest way to obtain a copyright is to send for a legal document from the copyright office. Hitting the shutter and sticking a layer on the photo just won't cut it.

You should add to your reading a book about Mass Media Law, and Ethics in Journalism. Which state many of the loose copyright laws you mention, but also tell how they won't help you when someone takes your work.

Well I should have been more clear. They were lifting entire web pages off my personal website, including text I'd written and photos I'd taken, and posted the entire page on their website.

Addendum: After reading the material on copyright.gov (posted by compuware), I think my initial assumption was correct - I should have implicit copyright simply by taking the photo, just as I do when writing original text.

And both you and him are forgetting that these laws still leave you to bear the proof. Or in other words, YOU still have to bear the proof that it's your work if it goes any further than, "can you please take this down."

With writing there is an implicit copyright that comes simply with the creation of the work - in the US anyway. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) the same was true of photographs.

This simply isn't true and will get you burned. There is no implicit copyright that comes with creation of the work with writing or with photographs. By that I mean, there is no veil of protection because you where the originator. You still have to give facts that will hold up against your infringer that you are the original creator, and simply having a copy isn't going to cut it.

Read this and see what saved her

You have to have documented proof.

And both you and him are forgetting fair use.

Read all of the "THE DIGITAL MILLENNIUM COPYRIGHT ACT OF 1998" and "The Intellectual Property Protection and Courts Amendments Act of 2004" and apply it to what you will read about in Mass Media Law, and Ethics in Journalism and you will get the sad truth.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
And both you and him are forgetting that these laws still leave you to bear the proof. Or in other words, YOU still have to bear the proof that it's your work if it goes any further than, "can you please take this down."

While registration isn't a bad thing, it's not *necessary* to show proof. For instance, I have a friend who had a shot ripped off- it was a model shoot and not only did he have a series of shots that the infringer didn't have, he also had a shot of himself with the model in the same studio. There's more than one way to show that it's your image. I've done the forensics side of IP theft cases.

There is no implicit copyright that comes with creation of the work with writing or with photographs. By

Professional Photographers of America:
http://www.ppa.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=16

...photographs are protected by copyright from the moment of creation

The United States Government:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hsc

No publication or registration or other action in the Copyright Office is required to secure copyright.

Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is “created” when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time.

ASMP:
http://www.c-photography.com/copyright/copyguide.pdf

This right begins at the moment you fix your photographic expression in a tangible form, that is, when you create the latent image, whether on film or digital media. Copyright ownership, bestowed automatically when you make an image, does not depend upon registration with the copyright office or placement of a copyright notice on the image.

that I mean, there is no veil of protection because you where the originator. You still have to give facts that will hold up against your infringer that you are the original creator, and simply having a copy isn't going to cut it.

"Simply having a copy" may cut it- that's up to the trial judge to decide, based upon what exhibits, testimony and witnesses you produce. A copyright certificate from within 5 years of the images creation simply shifts the burden of proof to the defense that the certificate isn't valid- that doesn't mean they can't present things which call that into question, so it's not actually a "slam dunk."

And both you and him are forgetting fair use.

No, I'm quite familiar with 107, it's very limited in scope and takes into account dilution of the value of the image and commercial use even in cases where fair use doctrine applies.

Read all of the "THE DIGITAL MILLENNIUM COPYRIGHT ACT OF 1998" and "The Intellectual Property Protection and Courts Amendments Act of 2004" and apply it to what you will read about in Mass Media Law, and Ethics in Journalism and you will get the sad truth.

For what it's worth, both of those acts became part of Title 17 when they were signed into law. All you have to do is read Title 17 (which I tend to end up doing about once every three months.)

Here's a more relevant example:

http://www.phototour.minneapolis.mn.us/essays/copyright_lawsuit

Note that the photographer got only actual damages ($4,462) on the image that wasn't registered with the US Copyright office, but statutory damages ($10,000) for the one that was. That's the difference between registration and non-registration, other than the fact that copyright registration is prima facia evidence of ownership unless disputed- that doesn't mean you can't prove ownership if it isn't registered as the above case shows (they're different claims.)
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination

I agree, but read Ethics in Journalism, any copy or version and Mass Media Law, any copy or version.

This is the copy we read and studied religiously

They go much deeper than the laws that were written in the 1970's and cover the broad scope of journalism, reproduction, attribution, and publication. And they show that the laws don't always work that way every time.

Not that you aren't correct, in fact I was wrong about the creation of copyrights, but much of what we are discussing is still going to be decided in a court of law with a presiding judge, and not two non-lawyers.

Once your image in on the web, it's fair game and as long as the infringer isn't gaining any monetary value from your image there is no case. Even if you have a series of images with you and the model, the infringer can beg the question, "who took that photo" and the whole case has reasonable doubt.

And official copyright document is the best and only 100% way to prove original work, everything else can and will be disproved, especially if you put it on the web (fair use).

p.s. text/writing are no different.

p.p.s I am going to bail out while I can. I don't want to be thinking about this all day.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
I agree, but read Ethics in Journalism, any copy or version and Mass Media Law, any copy or version.

This is the copy we read and studied religiously

I'll get a copy when I get the chance, too bad they're not the publisher who owes me money for some textbook shots ;)

However, I've got three photography and the law books kicking around here that I'd recommend to you-

Legal Handbook for Photographers (The rights and liabilities of making images) 2nd Ed., Krages, Esq.

The Professional Photographer's Legal Handbook, Wolff

Wedding and Portrait Photographers' Legal Handbook, Phillips & Nudo Esq.

They go much deeper than the laws that were written in the 1970's and cover the broad scope of journalism, reproduction, attribution, and publication. And they show that the laws don't always work that way every time.

No law works the same way every time, no argument there.

Not that you aren't correct, in fact I was wrong about the creation of copyrights, but much of what we are discussing is still going to be decided in a court of law with a presiding judge, and not two non-lawyers.

No argument there either, however I've fed the evidence to lawyers and AUSAs in IP infringement cases- I've only had one that didn't settle and went criminal in the last 7 years, and based at least partially upon the evidence I furnished to the FBI he took a plea deal when it was going to trial.

Prior to that, I spent a fair amount of time with the case agent and AUSA prepping.

I'm not saying that as a "hey, look at me," I'm saying I've got some direct relevant experience in this area.

Once your image in on the web, it's fair game and as long as the infringer isn't gaining any monetary value from your image there is no case. Even if

Again, my non-lawyerly take on the law is that it's not as bright line as that- damages are about the photographer losing money- so if the non-monetary value use kills the photographer's monetary use, then there are lots of circumstances where there is a case (in fact, that's the main strategy involved in the RIAA cases.

you have a series of images with you and the model, the infringer can beg the question, "who took that photo" and the whole case has reasonable doubt.

Again, I think you don't have a good grasp of a court's idea of reasonable doubt. In the case you cite, you get the testimony (either in person or by deposition) of both the photographer and the model. The photographer, or an expert witness stipulated to by the parties may be able to demonstrate a self-timer.

And official copyright document is the best and only 100% way to prove original work, everything else can and will be disproved, especially if you put it on the web (fair use).

Once again, it's not "100%." It's simply prima facia evidence in an infringement case- the infringer can still challenge the copyright registration. If you drop a memory card on the sidelines, and I find it and rush the images off to the copyright office, they'll happily issue me a certificate in exchange for a check, but that still doesn't prove I took them.

The other way to look at it is your work- even though you take the images, unless you're a stringer (and sometimes then) you're in a work-for-hire situation that means your employer owns the copyright even though you took the images. Copyright is also transferrable, so even if you had the document, I could claim that you'd transferred copyright to me...

The point being that "reasonable" doubt doesn't mean "possible" doubt, and the courts are pretty good at that most of the time (trust me, from a computer forensics perspective possible doubt would eliminate almost any computer crime prosecution.)

I'll close with the fact that I'm certainly not arguing that copyright registration isn't the best way to go, just that it's not the only way or completely watertight.
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
I'll close with the fact that I'm certainly not arguing that copyright registration isn't the best way to go, just that it's not the only way or completely watertight.

Yeah, I'll have to agree.

Not that I am trying to be a jerk with the one liners (which I personal don't like) but I do have to agree since you have been diligently providing the facts.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
I dunno, something about that makes me feel unclean... :D

Trust me, from a personal perspective, I think it's VERY STUPID LAW. From a professional perspective, I think it's an effective tool. I've only recommended it a few times, and I've helped a couple of people on the receiving end (hosting.)

Yeah, I'll have to agree.

Not that I am trying to be a jerk with the one liners (which I personal don't like) but I do have to agree since you have been diligently providing the facts.

I'm really not disagreeing with people just to disagree, and I try to provide detail as well as logic.

I remember when you did have to register a copyright with the US Copyright office to hold it, add the symbol, etc. That changed over time, but lots of people didn't know it, and you kept hearing the same thing from the same people- you've probably worked with folks who learned the pre-78 way, the 1978 way and now we're at the 1989 way- all of the books I cited are post '89, and I'd recommend at least the first two for pretty-much anyone with a camera, but especially anyone making their living with one.
 

Westside guy

macrumors 603
Oct 15, 2003
6,403
4,269
The soggy side of the Pacific NW
Trust me, from a personal perspective, I think it's VERY STUPID LAW. From a professional perspective, I think it's an effective tool. I've only recommended it a few times, and I've helped a couple of people on the receiving end (hosting.)

Yeah I'm definitely not one of these "all copyrights are bad" folks. I do think people need effective laws that help them protect their legitimate copyrights. The DCMA is most certainly ridiculous IMO because it has basically allowed copyright holders to circumvent well established legal rights under doctrines such as first sale and fair use. That's completely different than protecting my right to stop a person from stealing my stuff.
 

coffeebean65

macrumors newbie
Aug 1, 2009
1
0
I need more help with watermarks please!

Hi. I just found you guys after this was talked about more than a year ago. I am just a mom with a blog and I want to put a watermark or copyright to get the credit for my photos. Especially of my children.

I have photoshop elements 4.0 for mac. I don't understand how to even get started let alone try to do anything.

I need further steps or help.

I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Alia
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
Hi. I just found you guys after this was talked about more than a year ago. I am just a mom with a blog and I want to put a watermark or copyright to get the credit for my photos. Especially of my children.

I have photoshop elements 4.0 for mac. I don't understand how to even get started let alone try to do anything.

I need further steps or help.

I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Alia

I would look it up on the web. I am not a master of Elements, all I know is that it's the image tab from the full blown Photoshop app.

I am sure many online have been asking the same thing, or have found other ways to do it with other apps.

The summary of the thread as I remember is that it's not really necessary since once you put it on the web it's fair game as long as the person is practicing fair use.
 

ProwlingTiger

macrumors 65816
Jan 15, 2008
1,335
221
I just batch process mine through a nice plugin in Lightroom. I think it is called LR2/Mogrify. Has a TON of options and IIRC, you activate it by making a donation of at least $2.
 

dmmcintyre3

macrumors 68020
Mar 4, 2007
2,131
3
Now say I actually had the subject of the photo at my house and you could tell it was that exact one. Would you be able to prove it was your photo (or someone else in the house's)

Also could this be photoshopped out?
 

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termina3

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2007
1,078
1
TX
Why the concern about proving it was your photo, and not someone else's in the house? (BTW, if you own the camera, the EXIF should show that it was shot by that camera. Or password-protect your user-name, and make sure that PS action only shows for you.)

Yes, that can be Photoshopped out. Look for a tutorial that involves dropping a shadow or some embossing.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
The summary of the thread as I remember is that it's not really necessary since once you put it on the web it's fair game as long as the person is practicing fair use.

Fair use is pretty narrowly defined- what you'll have an issue proving is actual damages, since only the registering at the Copyright office gets you statutory damages, which are significant (hence the music piracy stuff- it's not fair use, it's registered and you'll lose lots of money if you violate copyright and go to court.)

Now say I actually had the subject of the photo at my house and you could tell it was that exact one. Would you be able to prove it was your photo (or someone else in the house's)

Also could this be photoshopped out?

Yes, I'd be able to prove it was my photo to a preponderance of the evidence in civil court and beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal court.

Yes, it can be photoshopped out. But it's probably easier to go find a cat to take a picture of ;)

Paul
 
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