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chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,426
2,110
Berlin
Has there been any major ProRes or ProRes RAW file format upgrades that Afterburner missed?
Similarly, Apple now tends to bury firmware upgrades inside of "macOS xyz updates " ... so bug fix upgrades to Afterburner could have weaved in without much fan fare.


I think there was a "throw away" comment by some Apple Exec ( Craig Federighi ?) about some being able to cover future formats. However, it was generally non-Apple entities that grossly oversold the FPGA aspects of the Afterbuner card. ( "oh I wish it could be a RedRocket card replacement" , " Oh the FGPA means it can possible do any codec" , etc. ) . Apple themselves did relatively little to rave about the FGPA aspect.

Where Apple probably hugely failed was in omission of useful information about Afterburner before it went on sale. ( the FAQ and support docs that highlight the specific role it was build for.). That vacuum got filled with lots of expectation setting that didn't line up with Apple intentions.


Afterburner had a specific job and it did its job. Make Pro Res look good.

The one quirky part of the "main mission" though that is missing is ProRes Encode. ( If there was an "A/B" switch so have one decoder card and one encoder card. But it would stick in a single mode on boot.)

There are three primary use cases for using a FPGA

1. Cheaper than a application specific IC (ASIC). Don't want to go though whole fabrication cycle and need a modest number of implementations.

2. Prototyping. Need to evolve to a correct spec over time

3. Varying custom workloads to work on in a single deployment.


The huge expectation disconnect is that Apple had problem 1 and 2. Three really wasn't an Apple issue.

First, at the time of Afterburner development Apple was still in a patent 'dust up' with Red over ProRes RAW. If they implementation in a ASIC and the patent issue went sideways that would be very expensive to go in a different direction on compression scheme. They also aren't going to ship millions of these priced at $2K a pop and narrow use case. ( " Apple needed to make the use cases broad to justify the price" ... that's tag-wags-dog thinking. )

Second, eventually the ProRes decoders did go ASIC. It is in the M-series. More than decent chance that was not decoupled from the Afterburner development and release. Apple gets to 'sell' a prototype before they weave it into the SoC. If there are bugs or problems ... can work that out before it goes into 10+ million dies.


The third gets entangled with the FPGA's development kit.. which Apple probably doesn't want to get to caught up in when it comes to distribution.




But that exists now. That what they did. How much further behind on modest ProRes RAW workloads would the MP 2019 be behind a Studio Max/Ultra if it didn't have Afterburner as an option?


MP 2019 boots Windows 10 (and pretty sure W11) or Linux. AV1 workload to do ... toss a Intel Data Center GPU card in there and it will probably work (eventually when they ship).




Besides 'encode' , there is ProRes format that M1 Ultra covers that the Afterburner doesn't? ( Not talking number of concurrent streams but a decode).

The number of concurrent streams has to do with both the bandwidth to the Afterburner card ( which if keep the same MP 19 PCI-e feeds isn't going to get any better) and the number of "gates" that the FPGA implementation has (again fixed in the basic foundation; not changing over time). If tried to add encode to the AFterburner gate set up , then you'd probably loose number of decode streams (not an infinitely large number of 'gates' available to use). Second, the internal bisection bandwidth that a M1 Pro/Max/Ultra has is way above that of a x16 PCI-e v3 link.
Your post is of course like usual spot on and you're absolutely right about everything, especially I'm pretty sure that they used the AB as some sort of prototyping device for the new video engines in the M1 chips..

The thing that bugs me is that I have a pretty good personal relationship with the "business sales guy" from the Apple flagship store here in Berlin, Germany, and he tells me that the AB would absolutely be capable of being reprogrammed to help decode other codecs as well, not just ProRes. Of course we have no issues with prores whatsoever on the mac pro, it's the other codecs like hevc that are causing the issues where now the m1 blazes ahead. It would just be great if the mac pro could live up to it's claim of being upgradable if they could ship a new version of the afterburner that has more capabilities. You can't tell me that it wouldnt be possible for them to put those video engines on a pci card and sell it as afterburner 2.0 for 2500$. I would buy that, if it would let me keep and evolve my expensive mac pro.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
The thing that bugs me is that I have a pretty good personal relationship with the "business sales guy" from the Apple flagship store here in Berlin, Germany, and he tells me that the AB would absolutely be capable of being reprogrammed to help decode other codecs as well, not just ProRes.

"capable of being reprogrammed" isn't technically the same as "will be reprogrammed". If reprogrammed the FPGA to do HEVC 4:2:2 (or all of HEVC main 10 profiles) then pretty good chance it would not do ProRes anymore. So would have an Apple card that could not do Apple codec in that state. So why would Apple want to put the card into a state that doesn't handle Apple codec? They could, but what is in it for Apple to block themselves?


Of course we have no issues with prores whatsoever on the mac pro, it's the other codecs like hevc that are causing the issues where now the m1 blazes ahead. It would just be great if the mac pro could live up to it's claim of being upgradable if they could ship a new version of the afterburner that has more capabilities.

In a better matched up world AMD's HEVC de/encoder for HEVC would be better. Largely for Macs Apple has leaned on Intel's leading edge Qucksync de/encoder to do work. [ When T2 came around they used their own in some contexts for H.264. ]. T2 is relatively old at this point and the Mac Pro doesn't use Intel CPUs with Quicksync present. For the most part it should have been the GPU's job to cover HEVC; not Afterburner's.

Afterburner doing more concurrent different codecs is a problem if want to keep the same price point. To ground this a bit say that the FPGA has 500,000 programable gates and a 64MB buffer memory. And ProRes with six 8K decoders takes 320,000 'gates' to do and 40MB buffer .
And four HEVC 4:2:0/4:2:2 main 10 profiles takes 210,000 'gates' to do and a 20MB buffer.

Well , you can't reprogram the FPGA to do both at the same time. The combination of gates and/or buffer are over budget. Can try going to a bigger and substantively more expensive FPGA. However, if customers were complaining about $2K being large and wanting it to do more , then a $3-4K price probably isn't going to make most of them happier. ( many folks are price anchored on "free" HEVC de/encode in their Intel iGPU, dGPU , iPhone/iPad chip , etc. )


The likelihood that a non-Apple GPU was going to cover ProRes de/encoding was about zero. The likelihood that a non-Apple GPU in 2022-2024 would cover at least part of the HEVC main 10 profiels was extremely high. There is a odd ball disconnect where some camera vendors jumped on 4:2:2 and the GPU folks largely (except Intel) ignored it. You are looking to Afterburner to solve that problem. The problem is "cleaning up after the GPU vendors"... I'm pretty skeptical that Apple wants to take on that task. Once the GPU vendors correct for that mismatch that kind of "value add" for Afterburner is relatively low. Even lower, on a high density of mac users who are on a fixed function logic HEVC/ProRes that Apple has made .

For HEVC 4:2:0 Adobe Premier is finally way better now (if compare Premiere at Afterburner intro to now on Windows it is way different for many GPU deployments. ). The hardware was present in many modern GPUs. It was case primarily of waiting for software to catch up. The 4:2:2 corner case is relatively small. ( If have Canon camera dumping a tons of local 4:2:2 it doesn't look small , but big picture of HEVC space, it is. )





You can't tell me that it wouldnt be possible for them to put those video engines on a pci card and sell it as afterburner 2.0 for 2500$. I would buy that, if it would let me keep and evolve my expensive mac pro.

I'm skeptical that HEVC is super small and that there is a huge block of unused "gates" on the Afterbuner FPGA. I don't think there is a "large" FPGA there. The $2K includes some healthy margin to cover development and overhead.
It is possible but the price point (and Apple's margin) seems likely to move more than $500. And once it gets too high , who is going to buy it? Especially if Apple stops selling new MP 2019 to put it into.

The other issue is could just plain buy a $2,799 Mac Studio 'full' M1 Pro , 32GB , 2TB storage just as a HEVC 4:2:2 -> ProRes ingest-transcode box. Even more so if have network video storage. If already have an Afterburner card the create more ProRes stuff. ( I know; didn't make proxies disappear). However, for $2.5K, you are in the range of getting a whole Mac Studio for that. [ Once the ProRes de/encode is in fix function, high volume logic ... FPGA just isn't price competitive. Apple is counting on that. ]


Apple made the T2 chip out of a 'chopped down' A10. A long shot, but if Apple created a "V1" or "T15D" out of a chopped down M1/M2 Pro die ( kill most of the CPU and GPU cores , flip the TB into x16 PCI_e v4 lanes , run some "BridgeOS" variant. ) leave the full Video fixed function logic (probably NPU unit I suspect is coupled to some of the workload) that could work in that price range. Wouldn't be a FPGA anymore. However, unless they were going to run that out to more than just MP 2019 targets, there would not be volume to motivate that. The leading iPhones have some ProRes so I would be shocked if the plain M2 SoC doesn't get something (and already has the HEVC coverage). So what Macs would really need these and have enough x16 PCI-e v3 bandwidth to make them highly useful?
 
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startergo

macrumors 603
Sep 20, 2018
5,021
2,283
However, for $2.5K, you are in the range of getting a whole Mac Studio for that.
Correct. However the afterburner is on sale now.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Correct. However the afterburner is on sale now.

Still won't encode at all. Pretty close to half the Studio price for about half the functionality.
If the M2 generation de/encode has some performance uplift, this will sag even more against the newer options.

At the time of posting there are only 17 of those. There is only going to be only so many open boxes to go around. Apple is unlikely to cut the price of new ones with full Apple warrantee coverage.
 
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