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Who uses MP3 on an ipod?
Um, most people. You are an exception, not the rule.

Hopefully m4a format is different from MP3? If so, all my music is m4a not MP3 so maybe that's one iPod less for Apple to worry about :)
Well, they are still licensing MP3 technology in addition to AAC technology, so it doesn't matter whether everyone is using AAC of not--MP3 is in there. But anyway, see below.

:mad: Sad that I've actually had it argued to me that what you desccribe is, indeed, a copyright violation...:(
Was this argued to you by an RIAA lawyer? Because that is pretty much the only person who would make that argument. It has long been settled in court that copying records/CDs onto another medium for your own personal purposes is "fair use".

Not anymore, as it's not 2001 (again) People download FLACs these days.
:rolleyes: Oh, sure, everyone. Let me introduce you to my friend bretm, who also thinks because he/she does something a certain way, everyone must be doing it that way. :p

If this the case, then conceivably no format, including M4P/AAC is safe, as it was also developed by, and licensed from, Fraunhofer.
Correct.
 
I know AAC format is a better format than MP3. Hell WMA is a better format than MP3. MP3 is the worse format of the major ones out there for file size to quality ratio.
Now when ever I rip one of my cds I almost always put it in mp3 format because everything plays mp3. Not everything plays AAC or WMA. I know the mp3 format will work on any mp3 player device I get. Yeah I have an iPod but I do plan on getting things that the iPod does not have the capability in a form I like it. Most notable I plan on replacing the receiver in my car and there really is not anything on the market that goes really well with the iPod where the iPod plugs in easily and no loose wires. Right know I already have enough of them running around 2 of which are there because of my ipod (car charger and a wire connecting it to the AUX port on my receiver) plus the entire thing of not having the iPod in there because I took it out to listen 2.
I would like one that has a fold down face plate where I could just slide the iPod right in put up the face place and have a really nice control over accessing files and of course it still having a cd player there as well. Right now my main option is I just going for mp3 so I can just burn an mp3 disk and put that in my car.

Mp3 formate is universal for the most part. The other formates are not.
 
so the sum is based on sold computers/operating systems.

that means 1.5 billion for Microsoft. that would mean Apple with a 3% marketshare would have to pay ~50 million.:p

so apple should pay the 50 million and publicly announce that this is a fair price and absolutely o.k. and totally legal. that would make it much harder for M$ to fight the verdict.:D

that would be a nice payback for M$ agreeing to pay royalties for every sold Zune to the Music industry. That also made it much harder for Apple to resist paying royalties to the music industry for sold ipods.:(
 
so the sum is based on sold computers/operating systems.

that means 1.5 billion for Microsoft. that would mean Apple with a 3% marketshare would have to pay ~50 million.:p

so apple should pay the 50 million and publicly announce that this is a fair price and absolutely o.k. and totally legal. that would make it much harder for M$ to fight the verdict.:D

that would be a nice payback for M$ agreeing to pay royalties for every sold Zune to the Music industry. That also made it much harder for Apple to resist paying royalties to the music industry for sold ipods.:(

tell you the truth it would not make it any easier or harder for M$ to fight it if apple did that because it does not set a president in court. It would be pretty much apple wasting 50million. Also I think it would be a lot higher because apple would be getting nailed on iTunes/Quicktime which has a huge install base. M$ getting hit on WMP which is pretty much in all of it OS's Apple would get hit on iTunes and more than likely the iPod as well so apple is just as much at risk as M$, just it would hurt apple a hell of a lot more.
 
tell you the truth it would not make it any easier or harder for M$ to fight it if apple did that because it does not set a president in court. It would be pretty much apple wasting 50million. Also I think it would be a lot higher because apple would be getting nailed on iTunes/Quicktime which has a huge install base. M$ getting hit on WMP which is pretty much in all of it OS's Apple would get hit on iTunes and more than likely the iPod as well so apple is just as much at risk as M$, just it would hurt apple a hell of a lot more.

Apple is going to get hit HARD. Consider EVERY iPod sold, and iTunes installation on Macs and PCs, not to mention people who are using iTunes only on their computer (like my Dell laptop for work).
 
Was this argued to you by an RIAA lawyer? Because that is pretty much the only person who would make that argument. It has long been settled in court that copying records/CDs onto another medium for your own personal purposes is "fair use".

No. Just someone who'd like to think she is.

And, I don't think it is always as simple as you desccribe or as I'd like it to be. I believe that what you describe above is ok as long as said copying doesn't involve defeating some copy protection scheme.... That is going to become more and more of an issue for us.
 
More MP3 patent suits due?

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/16774655.htm

More MP3 patent suits due?

RULING AGAINST MICROSOFT MIGHT SPUR ALCATEL-LUCENT TO PURSUE OTHER FIRMS

By Jessica Mintz
Associated Press

SEATTLE - A federal jury's ruling that Microsoft infringed on two MP3 patents and must pay $1.52 billion in damages could turn into a major sour note for other technology companies in the digital music business.

...

Apple and RealNetworks declined to comment on the verdict, but some intellectual property lawyers think the trouble could extend well beyond Microsoft.
 
Don't forget QuickTime...

Apple is going to get hit HARD. Consider EVERY iPod sold, and iTunes installation on Macs and PCs, not to mention people who are using iTunes only on their computer (like my Dell laptop for work).

Don't forget that QuickTime has had MP3 support since the last century - predating Itunes and Ipods.

Go to Apple's press site and search for "quicktime downloads", and you'll see lots of press releases like Apple’s QuickTime 6 Downloads Top 250 Million ...
 
RULING AGAINST MICROSOFT MIGHT SPUR ALCATEL-LUCENT TO PURSUE OTHER FIRMS

How about this as a conspiracy theory: Microsoft makes a lot a noise about the injustice in this award, the issues with the patents, etc. -- but instead of appealing the suit, they settle with Alcatel-Lucent for far less than the original $1.5 billion award. This leaves the basic findings in the case intact. Alcatel-Lucent then uses those findings to go after Apple (and others) for a great deal more. Microsoft succeeds in harming Apple's music business far more by losing this suit than by winning it, and far more than they ever could by competing.
 
I'm an infoanarchist, which means I'm opposed to copyrights, patents, and so forth.

I anticipate (and I've already seen) a "wtf have you created, and don't you want to be compensated?" argument. I'll handle that first, since it'll be the first argument used against me.

1. I'm a novelist, so I am engaged in a field where I live by the sweat of my TextEdit and create things that are easily "stolen." It's tough enough for me to make a living writing without book piracy, which is admittedly far more complex than music or software piracy or patent infringement.

2. It's an invalid argument that gets you nowhere. Just because I've created a substantial work and don't mind distributing it freely doesn't necessitate my belief in the freedom of all works. For instance, Apple develops open-source software, but they also distribute commercial software.

3. Even if I'm not Stephen King or Lucent (which I'm not), it doesn't mean I am not entitled to have an opinion. Many people do things for free -- work tech support on MacRumors, volunteer at soup kitchens, or perform sexual favors for fratboys. Things that can be distributed digitally are generally easier to duplicate than things requiring real labor, but the concept is the same.

4. Not everyone is a capitalist. I am, but I believe in a social market economy like the one we have, rather than a laissez-faire economy like the one I deeply fear. I also prioritize concepts of justice, ethics, and need above the concept of property rights.

So with that in mind, I'll actually answer your questions. Keep in mind that what I'm saying is not a "this is right" position but rather a "this is what I believe" position. I'm not speaking for anyone else but myself.



Very few people will argue with the concept of justice you just expressed. A creator deserves control over the fruits of his labor. It's a basic concept of capitalism and socialism, although the two schools begin to argue shortly thereafter. My goal is to increase the level of justice in the world, so I would be acting immorally according to my own compass if I did not justly reward software developers, programmers, musicians, novelists, and so forth.

My argument against patents, copyrights, and DRM is that they restrict the flow of beneficial things. I believe that a beautiful work of art should be available to all. Software that enables efficient and effective gene therapy in the United States should be available to researchers in China. Malaria vaccines developed in the US should be freely exchanged with Kenya, Nigeria, Columbia, and so forth. In short, I disagree with the concept of intellectual property because it interferes with the "marketplace of ideas" and sustains the existence of human/animal/deific unhappiness.

The natural shortcoming of this is that creators cannot exercise complete control over the fruits of their labor. What I suggest is that we rely upon morality and ethics rather than upon uneffective and inevitably-circumvented technologies. People violate copyright every day. People break DRM every day. As for software patents, they restrict the free market, making it difficult for fair and efficient competition between suppliers and thus hurting all consumers.

As you said: If someone cannot create a patented technology and benefit from it, why create? Again, I see it as a matter of ethics and value. If Dell came out tomorrow with Dellfruits™, little Mac clones that cost half as much, include an OS X-skinned Vista, and so forth, I'd still buy Macs because I would perceive them as being ripoffs of Apple. Remember -- I'm not arguing that everything should be free. You should absolutely reward innovation and punish theft. What I'm arguing against is the legal restriction of information. Paying for quality is one of the central concepts of capitalism, and all Americans would be driving plastic Ford Pintos and eating dirt if we didn't already behave by that natural law.



The GNU/Linux/BSD communities (and Wikipedia, and countless other systems) have been thriving based on a gift economy for quite a while now. Again, I'm not saying Richard Stallman's life means that all artists should paint for free; I'm just saying that innovation, quality, and value are generally rewarded whether or not the flow of information is artificially restricted.

I write knowing that my chances of being J.K. Rowling's less-attractive, hairier, and-penis-wielding competitor are very low. Almost impossible. If money was my goal, I would have been a lawyer, drug dealer, politician, or professional accident victim.

If money was the only incentive for innovation and advance, almost no art of any kind would exist. Most science would not exist, since that too was not financially valuable for a long time ("the earth is round; pay me $5."). Greek philosophy was developed primarily by people who refused to accept money. In terms of military technology, the Phoenicians or whoever would probably rule the world right now if they'd patented the war chariot.



In my opinion, most restrictions on the flow of information exist because people are afraid of competition... but whether you're a Libertarian or an Anarchist (like me) or even a Syndicalist or some other brand of socialist, you're almost sure to believe that competition is A Good Thing™. So I ask myself which is more important: the lost lives of Africans dying because they lack malaria vaccines, or the right of Whatever Pharmaceuticals not to have competition for 23 years?

I say make information free; let all people compete on as equal a playing field as possible, and let's have as many vendors as possible competing. That's the ultimate free market. Let quality, not artificial scarcity, determine profit.

kalisphoenix-

That was one of the most eloquent and beautiful things I've read in a long time. Thank you. What you just wrote above, I agree with 100% and wish that people who defend DRM, patents, copyrights, etc. blindly would read this and stop using the inane and overused argument: "Company has the right... blah blah." So what if they have the right? It's ultimately not RIGHT. LOL, did that make sense?

Oh, and this includes peeps who blindly support Apple re: iTunes and DRM.

w00master
 
Not conspiracy theory -- it's conspiracy FACT !

How about this as a conspiracy theory:

.... Microsoft succeeds in harming Apple's music business far more by losing this suit than by winning it, and far more than they ever could by competing.

Note this from the story:

...All stem from claims made in 2003 by Lucent Technologies against PC makers Gateway and Dell for technology developed by Bell Labs, its research arm.

In April 2003, Microsoft added itself to the list of defendants, saying the patents were closely tied to its Windows operating system. The PC makers are still defendants.

So, Microsoft volunteered to be sued! Clever devils in Redmond, indeed.
 
I've heard the bit I've highlighted above a few times in this thread now - with both positive and negative connotations. I'm looking about the web for arguments/opinions/disscussions for and against; but in the meantime would anyone who has made mention of this like to add some depth to the comment(s)?

I'm sure I "get" the argument for patents - One should gets benjamins for one's hard work, innovation, yada yada yada... but what exactly do you see as the counter position?

It cannot be that one should NOT be rewarded for hard work and innovation. Or can it? It just seems that's too problematic and would ultimately lead to no innovation/advance.

Like I've said, I've turned up a few hits on these internets re: this and my budddy here next to me is fairly opinionated as well, but what say you?

Oh well... time for chow. surprise me when I get back.:eek:

I like to use this analogy: chefs can copyright recipes, but cannot patent recipes.

Could you imagine if there were a patent for apple pie?

Why again do we need software patents? BAN THEM!

w00master
 
Ogg Vorbis - mmmh, maybe but I doubt it...I think the DRM thing will be the clincher and locking that under DRM will be very difficult. Of course that 'fairplay' DRM system that Steve's on the verge of 'binning' will probably just about do nicely when the world adopts AAC as the only tried and tested industry standard with a safe established licensing direction and a DRM option in the open...

It could even cover the cost of these ingenius backdated licensing fees!...


Anyway, when all is said and done it's just a bit of money - nothing too serious.

Let's face is in 2012 when the 'money' is due Apple will probably have bought EMI records made 'The Beatles' exclusive on itunes FOREVER, have 40% world market computer share and be one the verge of buying Sony!!It'll be chump change by then:)

Oh come on get real, at least 80% share :D
 
?????? And what have you invented that you don't give a damn about?

Personally I've four software patents, and I hate software patents.

Unfortunately in this world you have to have a defensive patent portfolio
to defend against companies like Lucent (spit) who use their patents
in an aggressive manner.

So the issue is not whether you have patents, but what you do with them.

Cheers, Ed.
 
I'm amazed a judge ruled against bona fide licencees who had no notice of the violation of the patent.

I can't see it standing on appeal.
 
I'm amazed a judge ruled against bona fide licencees who had no notice of the violation of the patent.

I can't see it standing on appeal.

If you (in good faith) buy a counterfeit/cracked copy of Photoshop, does that mean that you have a valid copy? No, because the counterfeiter didn't have the rights to sell you that copy.

The heart of the case is that Alcatel claims that the MP3 code contained technology that Fraunhofer did not have the rights to license.
 
If you (in good faith) buy a counterfeit/cracked copy of Photoshop, does that mean that you have a valid copy? No, because the counterfeiter didn't have the rights to sell you that copy.

No you don't have a valid copy, but there is such a thing in law as the "bona fide purchaser for value without notice" aka "equity's darling". If you buy something without knowing it is not legit, you are as much a victim as the legitimate owner of the rights. It's odd that a judge would rule against someone in that situation.
 
And people wonder why Vista costs so much. It cost 7 billion to make and they have to pay for all these dumb lawsuits. Apple is lucky they are not the top dogs. If they were it would be attack city with all the trial lawyers.
 
And people wonder why Vista costs so much. It cost 7 billion to make and they have to pay for all these dumb lawsuits. Apple is lucky they are not the top dogs. If they were it would be attack city with all the trial lawyers.

Right on... we are lucky not to be the dominant dogs here :)
 
Note this from the story:

...All stem from claims made in 2003 by Lucent Technologies against PC makers Gateway and Dell for technology developed by Bell Labs, its research arm.

In April 2003, Microsoft added itself to the list of defendants, saying the patents were closely tied to its Windows operating system. The PC makers are still defendants.

So, Microsoft volunteered to be sued! Clever devils in Redmond, indeed.

Yes, that would seem to add credence to my theory.
 
No you don't have a valid copy, but there is such a thing in law as the "bona fide purchaser for value without notice" aka "equity's darling". If you buy something without knowing it is not legit, you are as much a victim as the legitimate owner of the rights. It's odd that a judge would rule against someone in that situation.

How does that apply when the purchaser (Microsoft) then resells the "something"?

Can the legitimate owner request a percentage of the "purchaser's" profits gained from reselling the something?
 
How does that apply when the purchaser (Microsoft) then resells the "something"?

Can the legitimate owner request a percentage of the "purchaser's" profits gained from reselling the something?


It's an element of tough luck on the legitimate owner. It would be fair that MS (& Apple etc) should pay licence fees in the future to the proper owner, but would it be fair to force the innocent party to bear the cost of it in the past, rather than the person who licenced something he didn't have? After all, they did pay what they thought was the appropriate licencing fee.

Plus there is that fact that this has been going on for years. I know there is a statute of limitations, but at the end of the day, there was no reason they didn't assert their rights sooner. The fact the company has new owners doesn't make a difference - the company is its own person, and a change in the shareholders will make no difference - the suit belongs to the company, not the shareholders. If there was damage done, Alcatel allowed it to be worse that it could have been.

It's a surprising judgement. I won't say wrong, because I haven't read it, but I'd like to have a look at the actual judgement if anyone knows where I can get hold of a copy. Do you publish judgements in the US?
 
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