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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
How does AMD compete with this?


View attachment 1674181

The M1 being $50 is a bit suspect.

5nm wafers don't cost what 14nm wafers cost. I suspect that also doesn't cover the fixed cost R&D that Apple had to put into creating and deploying the Chips. Those $50 numbers are usually the result of ( wafer costs $xxxx and Apple gets yyy usable die out of the wafer so SoC costs YYYY ) or it is Qualcomms is $50 base cost so Apple's is
the same.

There is an article that 5nm wafers were priced around $17k.

If Apple got 500 usable dies out of the wafer then that's about $34 just for the raw wafer of dies. Uncut , Unpackaged , untested , un-binned. And as I mentioned above the amortized fixed costs from R&D ( design, compiler updates , software firmware changes , etc. etc. )

Apple has their own semi-custom RAM chips while Intel/AMD certifications against standard DIMMS/RAM is all baked into the price.

The cost aspects that are past the profit margins and "sales costs" that AMD and Intel have baked into their prices ... Apple probably has pay those also. Apple will save some but it is probably smaller than that number.

The M1 probably shares a die with the A14X. But the very likely larger variants of the line up for the higher performing Macs are likely going to have to amortize over a much smaller volume base and higher production costs per die. (because there will be fewer useful dies off of a wafer).


But yes... if apple is out to make an extremly good SoC for he iPad Pro they have almost pretty much paid for something that can prune off the bottom two (and highest selling) Macs also (the two lower range Laptops). Throw in the lowest end Mini and probably at volume far greater than what the iPad Pro was at ( so fatter margins there now too).


How does AMD compete.... they aren't really trying to primarily push here. The order in which new Zen release have come in is roughly GPU-less desktop Ryzen , EPYC , Threadripper , APU. (CPU+GPU combo). This particular subrange of CPUs that Mac lower range laptops is last on their priority list.

How can they complete? pretty sure the folks who like to put in their own so-DIMMs are happier. "raw" boot multiple operating systems folks are going to happier.



I'd guess that the savings for making their own chips at the high-end are much greater than at the low end.

Not necessarily. The Mac Pro run rate is probably closer to 100K ( or less). Once the volume drops one or two orders of magnitude and the R&D costs go up because deviating more and more from the iA-series baseline for the design the fixed costs are going up and the die yields off the wafer go down. At the extreme end of the Xeon W 3200 series where Apple is using 'M' class and paying a $3K tax for accessing memory over 1TB ..... Looking at the M1 I doubt Apple is going to make anything like that. [ And AMD is lower anyway. ]

If Apple keeps monolithic dies with integrated GPU cores as they go "biggest" and AMD keeps chiplets for higher stuff in the Mac range. The could close a bit in that zone.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
How scalable is Apple’s design? This is one of the main questions, isn‘t it? Srouji said:

“You want to deliver the highest performance at the lowest power consumption. And that's exactly where we want to take the Mac. . . . [O]ur plan is to give the Mac a much higher level of performance, while at the same time, consuming less power. . . . But that's just part of the story. Our scalable architecture includes many custom technologies, that . . . will bring even more innovation to the Mac. . . . This will give the Mac a unique set of features and incredible performance“ (highlighting by me, source: https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-the-apple-silicon-mac-will-attack-the-pc/)

On the other hand
There isn't good evidence that Apple's System cache and total focus on Unified Memory is going to scale extremely well to any large double digit number they choose.
Who is going to end up being right?


Scaling from 4 P cores up to 12-16 P cores isn't scaling up into high double digit numbers. There is no huge conflict in the two statements.


There isn't good evidence.

"
The fact that a single Firestorm core can almost saturate the memory controllers is astounding and something we’ve never seen in a design before.

Because one core is able to make use of almost the whole memory bandwidth, having multiple cores access things at the same time don’t actually increase the system bandwidth, but actually due to congestion lower the effective achieved aggregate bandwidth. Nevertheless, this 59GB/s peak bandwidth of one core is essentially also the speed at which memory copies happen, no matter the amount of active cores in the system, again, a great feat for Apple. "

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested

If throw 20 P (Firestorm) cores at a system with just 5 memory controllers then just 5-8 of those P cores can super saturate the memory bandwidth.... so what are you going to feed the other 12-15 cores with ? They all are going to take much less data and performance curve isn't going to be linear.


Versus

bw-scale.png







When Srouji is talking about scaling he is talking "down" as much as "up". Apple's primary objective it to uplift the laptops into a much higher performance zone. The top end Mac Pro is most likely going to move to being somewhat faster , but much more thermally efficient ( since that is aligned with the baseline direcdtion that laptops and phones are going). macOS can't even handle more the 64 cores. Apple is extremely unlikley to push the P core (or E core) count anywhere near that limit. They are quite likely going to claim they don't have to because they get "More" out of fewer cores. And for a single user workstation that is highly likely the better mix.

Apple probably won't go past 32 cores for multiple iterations. Which isn't high double digits. They are talking a different scale range.
 
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