any Freelancers here?

[e-clipse]

Not to undercut your abilities, I'm sure you're very talented, so no offense meant when I use you as an example.

The reason why we hear more and more kids talking about doing some quick design work for "spending cash" is because the software we have today makes it so easy for everyone. Ten years ago this wasn't as easy as it is today. Granted PhotoShop is a pretty intense program, but it can be easy to use for simple jobs as well. Due to this fact, a lot of smaller companies that at one time would have sought out a designer to create their logo or marketing materials are now having an employee's son or daughter create it for them.

I hardly see myself as a kid anymore, being 25.

Sad but true. Now.. with Photoshop, you don't have to even know how to draw or paint. All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals. I like drawing designs and importing them into photoshop for color.

Picture I photoshopped of my cousin

 

[i.Feature]

All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals.

While i agree that its easy for people to create with the various programs out there I would argue that this for the most part is not true.

I can pick up a baseball bat. I can swing the bat. I can hit a ball coming at me at 90mph. People oooh and aww when they see me swinging. Now Barry Bonds steps up next to me and i look foolish.

It's all in perspective.

 

[motherduce]

While i agree that its easy for people to create with the various programs out there I would argue that this for the most part is not true.

I can pick up a baseball bat. I can swing the bat. I can hit a ball coming at me at 90mph. People oooh and aww when they see me swinging. Now Barry Bonds steps up next to me and i look foolish.

It's all in perspective.

Excellent analogy - while everyone may be able to perform a function at some level, it becomes apparent who is a pro and who is not very quickly.

 

[echeck]

While i agree that its easy for people to create with the various programs out there I would argue that this for the most part is not true.

I can pick up a baseball bat. I can swing the bat. I can hit a ball coming at me at 90mph. People oooh and aww when they see me swinging. Now Barry Bonds steps up next to me and i look foolish.

It's all in perspective.

That's true, but that doesn't stop your average small business owner from recruiting an amateur for their design work so they can save some money. Whereas in the past the only choice they had were professionals.

 

[Sam/B]

the way i've gained experience is through a new buisness someone else I knew had set up and I recieve 50% of sales that come through my work (websites, flyers, posters, catalogues and promotional layouts) without all the hassle of customers and running the buisness. It counts as paid experience and also motivates you to develop your work and learn new things. I've learnt a whole range of programs to a very reasoneable level through this method. It's a very very good motivator even if you do end up making very little money from it.

 

[Ninja_Turtle]

Now.. with Photoshop, you don't have to even know how to draw or paint. All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals.

theres a difference between a designer/artist and a person who just memorizes tutorials...

 

[e-clipse]

theres a difference between a designer/artist and a person who just memorizes tutorials...

I agree with you, but there are also similarities between a designer/artist and a person who memorizes tutorials.


Yes, you have to have a creative want to make art too. This creative want forms a creative eye. Not all people see eye to eye. One persons trash is another persons treasure. MTV makes billions off of poor crafted designs. Some might see their low budget artistic advertisements as genius. A person who follows tutorials can become a great designer/artist. Which tutorials this beginner chooses to pay attention to, creates a certain style of art.

 

[MRU]

theres a difference between a designer/artist and a person who just memorizes tutorials...

Agree anyone can pick up a pencil. Anyone can practice - copy a tutorial, but that doesn't make them artistic.

I've tought people to use photoshop, but they still have somthing missing, some creatuve qi.

I work freelance as graphic designer since finishing uni in 1999, luckily where I live word of mouth does a lot more for you than advertising. In my county (Kerry in Ireland there are only around 120,000 people), and it's like everyone knows everyone, so do a good job for one person and your guaranteed more business. It's kept me comfortable for the last 5-6 years anyway.

I usually charge 40-50 Euro per hour, but am flexible depending on the size/scale of the project.

I've also built up a good relation with the local printers, so when a job comes in that's too much for them to handle (they like to keep things small and fast) I get a good amount of work passed on to me, which is nice

I work primarily in Illustrator / Painter IX.5 (works great on intel macs) / Photoshop... I'd be lost without my tablet. No matter how good you are with a mouse, nothing compares to the freedom of a tablet.

 

[The Past]

I don't do design but testing and I am a freelancer. Same problem here as well. But clients learn pretty fast what they bargained for. Last year lost my biggest client to someone who bid 20% of what I bid. There was no way I was going to match that, it was not worth it as I would have lost a lot of money. It even made me look bad because my client thought I was sucking their blood all along. Not true because my costs are very high as my tests are highly reliable and done with utmost rigor.

Well, they went with the other guy and their site has been spiraling down since then. I gave them consistently over 45% conversion rates across two major site redesigns and now I believe it is under 5%. So you do get what you pay for if you look at the right metrics.

We had our first meeting in a year last week but I am not sure if I will get the account back. The low charges of the other guy may have spoilt them for good. There was too much money discussion even in that first meeting.

 

[Peyton]

This creative want forms a creative eye. Not all people see eye to eye.

No offence, but this doesn't make too much sense. Its like saying people who are tone deaf will one day will get on pitch.

Creativity/artistic ability is some thing you are born with or not. Sure, you can get better, hone skills (or lack thereof) but lets be honest, you can only improve so much, and no matter how hard william hung tries, he won't be an American idol.

 

[e-clipse]

No offence, but this doesn't make too much sense. Its like saying people who are tone deaf will one day will get on pitch.

Creativity/artistic ability is some thing you are born with or not. Sure, you can get better, hone skills (or lack thereof) but lets be honest, you can only improve so much, and no matter how hard william hung tries, he won't be an American idol.

No offense taken...True, I have never heard a tone depth person sing anything that didn't make me
annoyed.

I was referring to artists like Picasso. His art is creative to cubists, but I think it looks like crap, and always will, but someone still admires it.

 

[ATD]

All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals.

Gee, you make it sound so easy.

Trust me, running effects/filters on images will not make you a seasoned professional.



.

 

[e-clipse]

Gee, you make it sound so easy.

Trust me, running effects/filters on images will not make you a seasoned professional.



.

I admit error in that statement. I did not think before posting. Great work!

 

[Robofunc]

...Now.. with Photoshop, you don't have to even know how to draw or paint. All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals...

It's actually quite the opposite—one of the easiest ways to tell amateur work from professional work is heavy-handed or meaningless use of Photoshop effects/filters.

Photoshop is not stand-alone design software. You can design with it, but it's like painting a house with a screwdriver. InDesign is the industry-standard "design" program, but if you're a designer working mainly on computers, you need everything included in Adobe CS/CS2. If you're a designer working with traditional (endangered) methods, you need a lot of pencils, rulers, knives, burnishers, proportion wheels, Sticky Letraset type, etc. etc.

Neither package of tools does any good in the hands of a person without the knowledge to use them.

If you want to design, good. But before you make a single mark on paper or screen, remember this: the first thing you need to create good design is an idea. If you don't have a clear idea of the job your creation needs to perform, you're either making art or playing around.


...not that there's anything wrong with that...

 

[_bnkr612]

Excellent analogy - while everyone may be able to perform a function at some level, it becomes apparent who is a pro and who is not very quickly.

Well said indeed.

Another fact is that you either have it or you don't. I come from a long line of right brain thinkers. My brothers and I are lucky. When I was in university, I noticed fellow students in my concentration who were/are terrible. And now most of them are not working in the creative field.

It's sad, and it brings the art department down when a student displays crap for work.

Left brainers are a dying breed here in the States. Big companies can get their talent overseas for a fraction of the price.

Work is good. If it's good, it works. -Me

 

[rebhaf]

Are you seeing a lot of jobs going to competitors that are charging next-to-nothing and getting rewarded more and more gigs? $50 for a logo, $100 for a brochure, $300 for a ten minute video! This has been plaguing myself and most of the Creative Freelance industry where iAm and it is getting extremely frustrating.

Sorry, but no brand can expect to get quality work from a freelancer billing at those rates. Here in Paris (and it was the same when I was in NY), a major brand or ad agency wouldn't even take you seriously if you weren't charging at least €400 per day (almost $500). Very good "creatives" bill about a thousand per day.

It's true, since design applications are easier to use and acquire, and for copywriters information is so accessible with search engines, anyone with a computer can get into advertising these days. As a result, there are loads and loads of small agencies and freelancers doing bad work. They're everywhere.

Nothing can compensate for true talent mixed with solid experience. Nothing.

As a copywriter and creative director, I've tried outsourcing projects to so many creatives here in Europe (Paris and UK) and I get hundreds and hundreds of resumes from people with very flimsy experience -- almost always just Web experience for companies you never heard of. I'm not saying this to be critical. But they're all ready to work for almost nothing, especially if it's for an interesting project (of course).

It's like actors in NY. Almost any waiter or waitress in NY would do anything to get a role in a movie, and they'd work for free (even if the union wouldn't let them). And any new screenwriter would probably GIVE his/her script to be made for free. (Any unaccomplished actor or screenwriter that denies this is a liar.)

But... any serious production company will spend the necessary money to hire quality actors, screenwriters, camera crews, etc.

Just the same, a leading international brand with a $100 million marketing budget isn't going to put its hide on the line to take chances with $100-per-brochure rookies.

Well, my response is getting too long. The whole point I'm trying to make is simply, if you're losing projects to dirt-cheap freelancers, then it's probably with companies you'll never have much future with anyway. Quality and experience probably isn't important to them. If you're good and have the portfolio to prove it, go for the bigger stuff.

 

[jtt]

My main client asked me last week if $300-400 was a good price for a 15 minute dvd consisting of mixed video, photos and graphics. He was quoted this by a guy who just broke off from a wedding/documentary crew.

How in the hell can you do that for that price? ..... it continues!

 

[Josh]

My main client asked me last week if $300-400 was a good price for a 15 minute dvd consisting of mixed video, photos and graphics. He was quoted this by a guy who just broke off from a wedding/documentary crew.

How in the hell can you do that for that price? ..... it continues!

Cheetos are cheap, high school only lasts 6 hours a day, and Mom's basement doesn't have a rental fee

 

[ATD]

Just the same, a leading international brand with a $100 million marketing budget isn't going to put its hide on the line to take chances with $100-per-brochure rookies.

Well, my response is getting too long. The whole point I'm trying to make is simply, if you're losing projects to dirt-cheap freelancers, then it's probably with companies you'll never have much future with anyway. Quality and experience probably isn't important to them. If you're good and have the portfolio to prove it, go for the bigger stuff.

Exactly. Bigger clients put quality and time first. They will pay good money for solid work that's on time. There is a old rule that goes like this, each job has 3 aspects, quality, time and price. Any reasonable client can only expect 2 out of 3, never 3 out of 3. If they want high quality work fast, the price goes up. The harder they push on any 2, the more it will effect the third one. If your clients are expecting 3 out of 3, they are being unreasonable.

 

[imngtgt]

everyone is designer--blaaaah!

I hate the fact that just because some people have a computer with design software , consider themselves designers and some who have a camera consider themselves a photographer. The old addage goes, you get what you pay for....so your quality should speak for itself.

 

[jtt]

I hate the fact that just because some people have a computer with design software , consider themselves designers and some who have a camera consider themselves a photographer. The old addage goes, you get what you pay for....so your quality should speak for itself.

Here you go.

 

[ATD]

Here you go.

Cool, I got the software, where can I download them concepts

 

[maya]

In a digital world we have those who have and "call" themselves:

Have : Think off themselves

1. Camera : Photographer
2. Video Camera : Camera Man/Woman
3. Photoshop : Graphic Designer
4. DVD Studio Pro : DVD Authorizer
5. FCP HD : Video Editor
6. InDesign : Desktop Publisher
7. Soundtrack : Audio Mixer and Recorder
8. a Macintosh Portable : Mobile workstation professional
9. a Power Macintosh : a Home Digital Studio
10. iPod : Some Music Fanatic

You get the picture, as long as you have the money, time and MacRumors Forum you can call yourself anything theses days.

Forgot:

11. Rapid Weaver : Web Designer
12. BBEdit : Web and Computer Programmer
13. Apple Developer Tools : Macintosh Programmer
14. Black Turtle neck and Blue Jeans : Steve Jobs

 

[MRU]

LOL! Sad but true. Can't tell you how many 'photographers' i've met who have a fancy camera - they constantly brag to you & everyone else of the cost, amount of pixels, and yet not 1 iota of understanding of simple things like composition etc..

I know loads of people who get 'PRO' software, and barely scrape through using it, never exerting any kind of creativity or desire to do so, and for the most part they do get away with it - with fancy templates the clients remain ignorant...

What I loved about DVD studio pro 1, was the fact that it did NOTHING for you and all the work and creation had to be done by yourself, the re-occurrence of fancy templates may speed up production for some - but it often puts a death-nail in creativity. Does any real person creative actually use 'templates'???? So why do they keep filling up our HD space with the bloody things.

It's not the clients fault of course.. Generally a client doesn't understand that Joe Blogs with no real ability can knock up a project cheaply by using templates. All they understand is the cost.....

The best appreciation I've recieved from clients are from those who have sat down with me whilst I've made changes etc.. Once they see the work involved and the skill required to do somthing properly, they gain a higher level of appreciation - and tend to hassle less about the cost and desire less changes...

Nothing worse than quoting a client and then they make constant changes and revisions but wont pay anything more than the original quote making the entire process worthless and stressful to the max..

Here's another analogy :-

I live/work in a recording studio. We have a laugh everytime a 'musician' comes in to record and they bring in their automatic keyboard.. That's no being a musician.

Same for those creatives who use 'templates' & 'filters'....

In a digital world we have those who have and "call" themselves:

Have : Think off themselves

1. Camera : Photographer
2. Video Camera : Camera Man/Woman
3. Photoshop : Graphic Designer
4. DVD Studio Pro : DVD Authorizer
5. FCP HD : Video Editor
6. InDesign : Desktop Publisher
7. Soundtrack : Audio Mixer and Recorder
8. a Macintosh Portable : Mobile workstation professional
9. a Power Macintosh : a Home Digital Studio
10. iPod : Some Music Fanatic

You get the picture, as long as you have the money, time and MacRumors Forum you can call yourself anything theses days.

Forgot:

11. Rapid Weaver : Web Designer
12. BBEdit : Web and Computer Programmer
13. Apple Developer Tools : Macintosh Programmer
14. Black Turtle neck and Blue Jeans : Steve Jobs

 

[jtt]

Cool, I got the software, where can I download them concepts

Good question. I've been looking for years.

ATD: You've got some fantastic stuff in your portfolio. Are there any small clients in LA?