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iBallz

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 31, 2007
288
0
So. Utah
Chris, I agree. I do not have issues with adjusting colors and getting the photo the way you want it.

Like I said, what about the photo of the White House? Was the Monument added in there? Postcard perfect pictures and them sorta things.

And I guess my other question is, what does PS do that I can't do with Aperture? I dont plan on chopping and recreating stuff.

iPhoto does an awesome job for what it is, I suppose Aperture is even better?

P.S. I could not open that link (at least on my iPhone) do I need an account?
 

FrankieTDouglas

macrumors 68000
Mar 10, 2005
1,554
2,882
Jerry Uelsmann, not Gary. My bad. I know his work and have researched him a little, but I guess not enough of my attention goes his way to not get tricked up on the first name.

I think people get too wrapped up in whether something happened as one shot or multiples, and don't step back and enjoy the image for what is being presented. No one looks at a painting and wonders how many layers of paint is there. This idea that the photographs present facts is a lie that should have never been started 150 years ago. Behind every camera is a photographer, who brings a subjective opinion of the world to every image he makes.

I find something funny when people see my work. In the case of photographing polaroids, I'm often asked if I "photoshopped" the polaroid images into the picture. For instance...

polaroid2.jpg


When in fact, nope. It's all done in (multiple) cameras. But then I show people other work and they never ask me what tricks may have been done. The irony is that images such as the upcoming example are composites consisting of multiple variations of a scene. In the case below, it consists of four different instances of a scene we photographed, composited back together to bring everyone's most effective take to create the final image.

beta2.jpg


Photoshop is just a tool, just like your camera. Or even your strobes. In the end it depends on the person using the tool and their talents.
 

soms

macrumors 6502
Dec 10, 2007
412
12
Seattle
Didn't photographers of old do some "editing" or "manipulating" in the darkroom?

Slight sarcasm and still a serious question :eek:

Yes, but editing and totally changing a ****** print in PS into an epic picture are totally different. People these days spend too little time actually taking GOOD photos, and more time in PS editing bad photos into good ones.
 

Xfujinon

macrumors 6502
Jul 27, 2007
304
0
Iowa City, Iowa
In today's parlance, Photoshop = the darkroom of yore.

Most digital cameras require some degree of digital manipulation to unlock the potential of the image, due to color filter arrays and anti-aliasing and so forth, so it is a matter of habit to run something through photoshop.

Your opinions may vary, I consider my infrequent uses of photoshop (as a pure hobbyist, mind you) to be a necessity to get the image the way I envisioned it. However, you could always make a name for yourself in today's marketplace by claiming to be "uncorrupted" by the digital techniques used by professionals, however you will find that most competitive photographers rely on them to maintain a business edge (and to achieve the "look" customers desire).

Your choice, really.
 

permutated

macrumors member
Jan 23, 2008
90
0
I consider myself a real photographer.

I started out in analog, using darkrooms and shooting roll after roll, experimenting with chemicals in the lab and ghosting images with different exposures.

Made the move to digital a few years ago, at first I heavily photoshopped everything, but after a while I lost interest, and I longed for the realism that I had substituted for technology.

I recently bought a Rebel Xti, and all my images are undoctored, except for minor color correction.

Anyhow, I don't think theres anything wrong with color correction, but theres no reason to manipulate every image you take: you lose the magic.
 

valdore

macrumors 65816
Jan 9, 2007
1,262
0
Kansas City, Missouri. USA
Valdore, damn you!

If it wasnt for some of your awesome images I've ever seen first, I'd still be happy with my little SD800.:eek:

Sorry if I came across like an ****** with that. :eek: It wasn't really directed at you; rather, it was just the tone of the whole thread at first. I get kind of allergic if I think I sense a whiff of the gaggle of pseudo-purists out there who act like using a computer for this or that is some form of cheating. (everyone, I am not directing this at any one person in particular on this forum! )
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,870
903
Location Location Location
Yes, but editing and totally changing a ****** print in PS into an epic picture are totally different. People these days spend too little time actually taking GOOD photos, and more time in PS editing bad photos into good ones.

I think some people got snarky at the OP because what he said probably applied to some of the photographers here, who might be making substantial manipulations to their photo. I just don't think the OP said anything wrong. He didn't say photo editing was bad. There was not criticism there. Adjusting contrast and colour.......fine. What he said was that he thinks there are too many people creating photos of things the photographer wasn't there to see.

If you take 2 beginner photographers, and the 1st guy learns about photography and develops his technique of taking photographs, while the 2nd guy person progresses more slowly in this respect, but becomes incredible at Photoshopping his work, who would you consider the better photographer?
Do they average out to be equal?

What if the 2nd guy's edited photos actually look more interesting (to more people's eyes) than the 1st guy's lightly edited photos? Is the 2nd guy the better photographer, even if his photos aren't things he was physically there to see?

I guess it depends on how you define the words "Good Photographer". Is it a person who produces the best "end result" by any means necessary, or is it a person who is capable of handling a camera well and knows how to compose his shot, "see" interesting light, and make use of this light?
And again, we're not talking about increasing colour saturation, or altering contrast. We're talking about adding in skies that weren't there, clouds, moons, people, removal of people, addition of buildings, complete manipulation of objects, etc.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
If you take 2 beginner photographers, and the 1st guy learns about photography and develops his technique of taking photographs, while the 2nd guy person progresses more slowly in this respect, but becomes incredible at Photoshopping his work, who would you consider the better photographer?

That's easy -- the first guy. The second guy is a better Photoshop user/digital artist. IMHO there IS a difference!

Abstract said:
What if the 2nd guy's edited photos actually look more interesting (to more people's eyes) than the 1st guy's lightly edited photos? Is the 2nd guy the better photographer, even if his photos aren't things he was physically there to see?

No. The second guy is a better digital artist. This doesn't mean that one person's work is superior to another's, it simply means that they have approached the same subject matter through different means.

I live in the Washington, DC area and recently went downtown to view the Ansel Adams exhibit at the Corcoran (which closes tomorrow). I spent a lot of time there marveling at his work, at his composition of images, at his darkroom artistry (burning-in and dodging). Regardless of what he did in the darkroom, his photos had a solid foundation from the very get-go, based upon an innate skill for positioning his subject(s) in the first place, composing them so that they presented intriguing layers for the viewer to contemplate.....

I'm sure that if Ansel Adams were alive today that he'd be thrilled with Photoshop and what can be done in it -- but that he still would be producing photographs which would stand on their own regardless of any additional manipulation.....

There are people here who share some excellent photography. There are people here who share some excellent images which have been manipulated beyond photography so that they have become digital art. That's fine.....there's room for everybody!



Abstract said:
I guess it depends on how you define the words "Good Photographer". Is it a person who produces the best "end result" by any means necessary, or is it a person who is capable of handling a camera well and knows how to compose his shot, "see" interesting light, and make use of this light?
And again, we're not talking about increasing colour saturation, or altering contrast. We're talking about adding in skies that weren't there, clouds, moons, people, removal of people, addition of buildings, complete manipulation of objects, etc.

A good photographer and a good digital artist (or good darkroom artist, for that matter) are not the same. In my mind,the person who is capable of handling a camera well and who composes the shot well, makes good use of the light and comes home with an image which needs very little post-processing is a good photographer. The person who shoot an image and then comes home and manipulates the h*ll out of it in Photoshop is not a good photographer,but rather, a good Photoshop artist. BIG difference!
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,870
903
Location Location Location
That's easy -- the first guy. The second guy is a better Photoshop user/digital artist. IMHO there IS a difference!


No. The second guy is a better digital artist. This doesn't mean that one person's work is superior to another's, it simply means that they have approached the same subject matter through different means.

Well I agree, but some people here appear to "strongly" disagree with the OP.

I asked a question that wasn't really waiting for a response, I guess. It's just something to ask yourself. Some people may feel that the 2nd guy is the better photographer because his combination of photography and Photoshop/darkroom skills is superior, and he has a better total skill-set than the 1st guy, and hence created a better end product.

If you answered the question, then you probably know where you stand.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
After I posted I realized that I left something out in my earlier post so added that in.... Now, in response to this post....

Essentially, I'm "old-skool." I cut my teeth on -- gasp! -- SLR, medium-format and large-format cameras that were TOTALLY manual and I spent many hours in darkrooms.... Do I prefer the convenience of Photoshop or Aperture, the ability to sit at home at my computer and process my images? Sure, I do! No smelly chemicals, no stained clothing, far more control over the images..... Yes, it's wonderful. However, I still adhere to the basic principle of "get it right in the camera from the get-go." In the past this meant that I'd spend fewer hours in the darkroom; now it means that I spend less time in Aperture or Photoshop "fixing" things. For me the real joy in photography comes from the experience of being out there making the exposure, not in the aftermath where I need to post-process that shot.

People come to photography from different backgrounds,and some are definitely artists with previously-honed skills in working with pastels, pencils, and oils..... Others are approaching photography from a more technical background and are, to be honest, more fascinated by the camera gear and technology than they are interested in the actual output of their cameras and lenses. We see these "measurebators" a lot on DPR and other photo forums. Still others have a perceived need to document everything.... Everybody comes to photography in their own way and there really is no "right" or "wrong."


Abstract said:
Some people may feel that the 2nd guy is the better photographer because his combination of photography and Photoshop/darkroom skills is superior, and he has a better total skill-set than the 1st guy, and hence created a better end product.

...And other people may feel that the first guy is the better photographer....not better ARTIST, mind you, but better PHOTOGRAPHER.

Thing is, this is comparing apples and oranges because there are two distinctly different skill-sets going on here and who is to say that one is inherently superior to the other? That one end product is superior to the other?
 

valdore

macrumors 65816
Jan 9, 2007
1,262
0
Kansas City, Missouri. USA
I think everyone is missing something: Rote technical adroitness and extensive post processing and altering are not mutually exclusive. The best digital work is done with a solid understanding of both. I get the feeling from reading this thread that many here think it is an either/or situation.
 

carlgo

macrumors 68000
Dec 29, 2006
1,806
17
Monterey CA
carlgo,

Actually one of the main reasons why most photographers of the time period didn't use color film, was due to it's "presentation" shelf-life. Basically, color film and paper that was in use up until the early 1990's did not do well under many lighting conditions. Both, the negative and photograph needed to be kept in a controlled environment in order to slow down the deterioration process. Film would turn to a magenta cast over time, and fade. Color photo paper, would (depending on brand, and style) shift in hue, and fade at such a rapid rate that many professionals photographers would offer a five year replacement warranty on their fine-art color images.

Just a little color photo history for those interested.

Thanks, that makes more sense. How things have changed with 100-yr ink and all.
 

iBallz

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 31, 2007
288
0
So. Utah
Sorry if I came across like an ****** with that. :eek: It wasn't really directed at you; rather, it was just the tone of the whole thread at first. I get kind of allergic if I think I sense a whiff of the gaggle of pseudo-purists out there who act like using a computer for this or that is some form of cheating. (everyone, I am not directing this at any one person in particular on this forum! )

NO Dude! I, since seeing your HDR's about two weeks ago, I have really taken a renewed interest in photography, had no idea the possibilities of what can be done in digital. So thanks to you first and foremost, I'm now about $1K further in the hole, and soon to be another 2-3K deeper! :D
 

iBallz

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Dec 31, 2007
288
0
So. Utah
Hey Frankie, I do like them photos in your link, very cool. I'll be the first to admit I need to learn more about the trade. Thanks
 

seenew

macrumors 68000
Dec 1, 2005
1,569
1
Brooklyn
If Our Lord and Savior Ansel Adams Christ :)D) had access to Photoshop, you can bet he'd have used it. So would any other wet photographers of old.

Photomanipulation has been around since the birth of the medium. Calotypes were so sensitive to blue light that if you wanted clouds in your landscape shots, there was no way around manipulation using two different exposures.

People need to realize that Photoshop is just a new tool that will help further the medium, to help it grow and evolve. Of course there will be people using it to make terrible images, just like a master can paint a masterpiece with the same paint that an amateur paints a disaster.

Advancements in a medium shouldn't be shunned, they should be embraced. People who pride themselves with being "purists" need to pull their heads out of their asses and get with it.
Or not. Get left behind, I don't care.

PS: I'm a sophomore at the Savannah College of Art and Design, and while they have just started to shift their focus to digital in the photo department (I was the last in the class of freshmen to take only wet photo classes), we still work plenty in the darkroom. Small, medium, and large format. Color and black and white. Even alternative processes from the 19th century like platinum printing is still taught.

Check out these two negatives I scanned from my 4x5 view camera.
Subtle duotoning in a darkroom like that is expensive, difficult, and the chemistry is highly toxic and dangerous to breathe! I did this in Photoshop with a curves layer in less than 2 minutes, and still have all my hair.

4x5pbj.jpg

coldCurves.jpg
 

shecky

Guest
May 24, 2003
2,580
5
Obviously you're not a golfer.
so, just to add a view opinions to this thread, not really directed at any of the above comments specifically:

i am a graphic designer who uses a lot of photography in my work, mostly by using photography as a structural base for my design work, as opposed to representational "stock" type images.

i do a lot of work with my mentor and friend who is, amongst other things, a professional photographer and has been since the 70's. he has a pristine white 1000sq ft photo studio with the full shebang of lighting, booms, floods, flash kits, slaves, etc... not to mention a dozen canon L lenses to go with his 1ds mark ii, which he just upped to a mark iii last week. he has serious amounts of gear, 10's, hell maybe 100's of thousands of dollars worth. his photos come in as RAW files that are then converted to TIFF in Capture One, and further edited, color corrected, cleaned up, etc in photoshop. he gets paid very well to work onsite as well as in his studio and his work has been in many books, magazine covers, annual reports, etc.. for big named clients (that i will not name here due to various NDAs). this guy is a pro and has been for 30+ years.

3 points:

1. when i first saw his studio a few years ago, my jaw dropped at all the stuff he has. he looked up with a grin and said "don't get too impressed. all that really matters is how the light goes through the lens. all this stuff just helps me get the light to do what i want."

2. we were shooting some flat art for my portfolio and he made some comment about how something was not shooting perfectly and i said "does it matter? just photoshop it!" he said "photoshop does not make taking photographs any easier. just cheaper, faster and safer. but it is just as much a pain in the ass as a darkroom if you take crappy photos."

3. i was with him at a shoot for a bunch of stuff for a major office furniture manufacturer. i watched him take 12 hours to get 2 shots. literally 12 hours, literally 2 shots. he called that a "productive day." thats when i really understood that photography is about what happens up to and including light hitting the film (or sensor), not about how much adjustment you need to do in the darkroom or in photoshop. i asked him about HDR, and post processing, and all that stuff and he always says "start with garbage, end with garbage."

so.

2 more things.

1. what i think the issue with a lot of "purists" who are haters of photoshop is the ease of entry and simple accessibility. back in the day you had to buy a good camera, buy film, buy lights, buy tripods, have a darkroom, buy chemistry, buy paper, buy gear, spend a lot of time working in the darkroom, testing and retesting, and so on and so on. now, any 13 year old with a ripped copy of photoshop he got from a torrent can call himself a "photographer." hell, you don't even really need a camera anymore. this same argument goes around and around in the graphic design world too; if anyone can get a copy of indesign, then anyone can be a designer.

let me make this perfectly clear: technology does not equal talent.

2. i use a DSLR and medium format film cameras reularly.

personally, i prefer film. i prefer it for the reasons a lot of people hate it; i can use the innate unpredictability of an analog medium (relative to a digital one) to my advantage, and i do so as often as i can. to me, the process of getting light to film to negative to print feels better than light to CMOS to pixel to printer. its a personal preference that i can in no way make a quantifiable justification of.

i also use digital often, for relative ease of iteration - its very easy to shoot 500 exposures digitally, its much harder (and more expensive) to do it in film. in my world, both have their place, and both have advantages and disadvantages.
 

uberfoto

macrumors member
Apr 24, 2006
81
0
I know this might have been touched on already and that it might not be entirely related to what the original poster is referring to but...

Film was different. Different films responded differently. Contrast, saturation, etc were all dependent on the type of film used.

Digital's response curve is linear or flat. Unless you are shooting jpg images using the in-camera processing settings, your images NEED to be run through Photoshop before they should be presented.

It is the darkroom for digital. The problem is, because of the widespread availability (re: bootleg copies) and that it is basically free to experiment with, people tend to overuse it and over process their images. That's where we get all the fake vignetting, funky colors, cliche selective coloring and all the skin smoothing.

Just like there are people out there that suck in the analog darkroom or have techniques we don't agree with, there are those same folk in the digital realm. (Just waiting to throw their horribly processed images at us.)

:D


At this point the only thing that irks me is that all these photo noobs look at some of this "photography" and think it is wonderful! Lame HDR's with fog painted in, fake blur effects made to look like shallow DOF, and I guess we could throw pictures of cats in there too.

I guess it depends on who you are doing photography for and if your clients are pleased. Other photogs might realize you still suck though. ;)
 

marclapierre13

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2005
869
0
I know this might have been touched on already and that it might not be entirely related to what the original poster is referring to but...

Film was different. Different films responded differently. Contrast, saturation, etc were all dependent on the type of film used.

Digital's response curve is linear or flat. Unless you are shooting jpg images using the in-camera processing settings, your images NEED to be run through Photoshop before they should be presented.

It is the darkroom for digital. The problem is, because of the widespread availability (re: bootleg copies) and that it is basically free to experiment with, people tend to overuse it and over process their images. That's where we get all the fake vignetting, funky colors, cliche selective coloring and all the skin smoothing.

Just like there are people out there that suck in the analog darkroom or have techniques we don't agree with, there are those same folk in the digital realm. (Just waiting to throw their horribly processed images at us.)

At this point the only thing that irks me is that all these photo noobs look at some of this "photography" and think it is wonderful! Lame HDR's with fog painted in, fake blur effects made to look like shallow DOF, and I guess we could throw pictures of cats in there too.

A few points on your comment.
Noobs have to start somewhere, nobody starts a pro. Experimentation is a great way to gain experience.
Just because you add some colour or change the colour of the picture, doesn't mean you are a bad photographer. You can adjust the colour of the photo to change the feel of the photo.
Again, I said it once, and Ill say it again. Photography is an ART. Do as you like with it, and create images. Experiment, be creative.
Photoshop is a tool, used to edit photos. Like ive heard before, it is not a verb, just because you used photoshop to edit it, doesnt mean you photoshoped it, so to speak.

To the poster above you, I agree completely. A garbage photo will stay a garbage photo no matter how you edit it. (there are some exceptions, but in general, this is the case).
 

Doylem

macrumors 68040
Dec 30, 2006
3,858
3,642
Wherever I hang my hat...
In a discussion like this (and, my, hasn't it got us all thinking? ;)), we're overlooking one thing: the quality of the photographs themselves.

My respect for another photographer's opinions (about photography, at least) is in direction proportion to the quality of the pix he/she takes. That is, I will listen to whatever a good photographer has to say, and hopefully learn something new. If a photographer backs up words with pix, then fine. But, IMO, a lot of proponents of heavy digital manipulations are not very good photographers. They may think they are, but they're not. And the proof is in the pix.

The technical possibilities of the 'digital darkroom' seem to be advancing quicker than our ability to use them. I have no gripe with photographers availing themselves of useful photographic tools, though 95% of the time they show too little discrimination and restraint. Like car crashes in the movies, every shot has to be more 'extreme' than the last one. Subtlety is lost.

Having a consistent vision, a point to make, an eye for a picture, an understanding and appreciation of light: these will always be more important than the latest PS plug-in...
 

freebooter

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2005
1,253
0
Daegu, South Korea
Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Same old "boohoo I don't like it" baloney. :(

The old painters hated the new painters, who hated photography---blah, blah, blah....

People make their images with the tools at hand, in the style of the day. None of it is 'real'.
Some is well done, some is not.
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
21,929
265
Unless you're Henri Cartier-Bresson, it's all manipulated to some extent, within the context of photography's disciplines and techniques. He didn't use a motor drive or an array of lenses.


He never photographed with flash, a practice he saw as "mpolite...like coming to a concert with a pistol in your hand."

He believed in composing his photographs in his camera and not in the darkroom, showcasing this belief by having nearly all his photographs printed only at full-frame and completely free of any cropping or other darkroom manipulation -- indeed, he emphasized that the entire negative had been used by extending the area reproduced on the print to include a thick black border around the frame.

Cartier-Bresson worked exclusively in black and white, other than a few unsuccessful attempts in color. He never developed or made his own prints. He said: "I've never been interested in the process of photography, never, never. Right from the beginning. For me, photography with a small camera like the Leica is an instant drawing."


"The simultaneous recognition, in a fraction of a second, of the significance of an event as well as the precise organization of forms which gives that event its proper expression... . In photography, the smallest thing can be a great subject. The little human detail can become a leitmotif."
— Henri Cartier-Bresson


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Cartier-Bresson


To me, that is the closest form of 'pure' photography in a journalistic sense, capturing and freezing a moment, presenting it as unaltered as possible. When I used to shoot a lot many years ago, I found it almost the difficult kind of work as well.

Further viewing :)
 

John T

macrumors 68020
Mar 18, 2006
2,114
6
UK.
In my opinion, those who class themselves as "Photographers" are like car drivers. You never hear one admit to being a bad one!! ;)
 
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