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Argon_

macrumors 6502
Nov 18, 2020
425
256
I'm way happier now than I would have been keeping either the 2020 MBA or the 2018 MBP, life is too short to use a computer you hate everyday. :)

I second that. I bought a 2020 Intel machine because crashes were crippling my workflow, and the butterfly keyboard caused too much frustration. And I'm glad I did.
 
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jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
Those are certainly options worth considering. I'll need to do a cost analysis.

I was always planning on hanging on to the MBP16 in case I found serious software incompatibilities with the M1 - which is why I bought the Mini for experimentation purposes. So far, bar some development software tools (e.g. Docker), the M1 has been working very well indeed, and I am planning to get an M1X MBP14 or whatever the next release is.

I suspect the MBP16, even maxed-out, will be solidly beaten by the next "M1X" Macbook Pro, and as you say, it's value would sharply decline then.

Thanks for your input.
My very expensive 2013 Mac Pro has been less than the fastest Mac for a while but it still is pretty decent on speed. So I feel lucky that I don't find any need to sell it for a massive loss (was $4300 new). My M1 MacBook Air is faster in almost any circumstance (unless someone knows how to use two D500s simultaneously). But with the Mac Pro I get a large amount of RAM and x86 compatibility for anything that the MacBook Air can't handle (so far nothing.) I see OWC selling a lesser Mac Pro for $2050... hmm.
 

OldGreyGuy

macrumors regular
Jan 14, 2014
117
26
Near Brisbane, Australia
My very expensive 2013 Mac Pro has been less than the fastest Mac for a while but it still is pretty decent on speed. So I feel lucky that I don't find any need to sell it for a massive loss (was $4300 new). My M1 MacBook Air is faster in almost any circumstance (unless someone knows how to use two D500s simultaneously). But with the Mac Pro I get a large amount of RAM and x86 compatibility for anything that the MacBook Air can't handle (so far nothing.) I see OWC selling a lesser Mac Pro for $2050... hmm.
I'm still running a Late 2013 27" iMac Pro as a daily use machine, still works fine even though it is long in the tooth. Also have a 2012 Mac mini that acts as a (home) fileserver, both those machines still run fairly well but they are officially stuck at Catalina and I see no great need to update them because of that. I have other systems that will move to Big Sur when a few of the bugs are worked out.

I guess when App support stops for the Intel machines then I may have to update to Apple Silicon but I am not desperate to upgrade until I have an need for something that will only run on Apple Silicon.

I do have a M1 Mac mini in the office as part of our engineering suite of gear, it is nice but I don't run anything on it myself, we have ported one of our products to it and it is lightning fast compared to the Intel chips.
 

Argon_

macrumors 6502
Nov 18, 2020
425
256
I'm still running a Late 2013 27" iMac Pro as a daily use machine, still works fine even though it is long in the tooth. Also have a 2012 Mac mini that acts as a (home) fileserver, both those machines still run fairly well but they are officially stuck at Catalina and I see no great need to update them because of that. I have other systems that will move to Big Sur when a few of the bugs are worked out.

I guess when App support stops for the Intel machines then I may have to update to Apple Silicon but I am not desperate to upgrade until I have an need for something that will only run on Apple Silicon.
I've actually found Big Sur to be MORE stable than Catalina, but then again, I didn't have my current machine for very long when it was released, so the sample size is rather small.
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
If you read MacRumors then you already knew this was coming. iPads were already faster for many tasks than most Macs. It’s why people were begging for Apple Silicon in the first place.
Well...there were rumors but not facts I would have risked a purchase decision on. And I don't think anyone knew the timing....people have talked about ARM-based Macs being "just around the corner" for years. The iPad was a great indicator of possible performance, but running MacOS on these chips was a big unknown.

I didn't expect the performance to be as good as it has proven to be.

I still excited by new tech though, and it's a very positive thing overall. All of our gadgets are obsolescent the moment they are released; it's just a fact of life. Provided you get plenty of use out of them, it's all good.
 
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hugodrax

macrumors 65816
Jul 15, 2007
1,225
640
Hell know. Computers are tools, the M1 Mini blows my 4K USD iMac :) but for close to 1/4 the price. Intel was sitting on a 3% IPC improvement for a while I was caught by surprise at the improvements on my workload.
 

iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
2,014
2,257
I also bought a good iMac a few months ago as the ASi iMacs likely come next year and I could not wait.

The real question is: is the iMac I have now limiting my work significantly in terms of performance? The answer for me is "no". Therefore, it will not matter how speedy the M chips are because more performance will not speed up my work flow.

I am happy that Apple did not fail spectacularly regarding ASi so next Mac I buy will be competitive.
 

plinden

macrumors 601
Apr 8, 2004
4,029
142
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Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
To sum up, Apple was happy to take your money for a product that probably should never have been introduced in the first place.
Well, the MBP16 *was* an improvement of the previous MBP15, and I only jumped in after glowing reviews from many reviewers. It is a very good machine, and still has the option for more RAM and a more powerful GPU than any M1 Mac (my MBP16 has 32GB RAM, 8GB 5500M).

I know a lot of people complain that the MBP16 is too hot and noisy, but this isn't my experience in normal use....but then again, I use a DisplayLink dock, so I'm not taxing the GPU except when I do photo/video editing. Real-world battery life is not great and for my workloads, it's not enough for a day's work unplugged.

Overall, the MBP16 is a pretty solid machine, and if the M1 hadn't turned up as the new kid on the block, the MBP16 would still be kicking-butt. It's still a force to be reckoned with, but if we see an M1X mid-next-year, it will become less relevant.
 

Nicole1980

Suspended
Mar 19, 2010
696
1,551
No. Not at all. I made an informed decision and purchased a 2018 Mac mini last December. I expect it will meet my needs for several more years.

There will always be something better tomorrow. It is silly to fret about it.

+1

I bought a 2019 8-core 27 inch iMac off the refurb store just this summer and have ZERO regrets.

Why? Because I have a large swath of software, from the latest version of Premiere Pro to older (even some 32-bit) stuff. I also have a good number of Windows programs and games that I love and use in bootcamp, or windows virtualization. On even the most demanding programs and games, the iMac runs smooth as butter, and stays cool and quiet.

So for me, compatibility and stability are way more important than a little more speed.

If my main use of my Mac was to run benchmarks, I suppose the M1 would be a good choice for me ?. But my main use is to run a wide range of software, new and old, smoothly and without a hitch. So I have no interest in the M1 Macs for now, and probably won't for a good long while.
 
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TrueBlou

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2014
4,531
3,619
Scotland
Well, the MBP16 *was* an improvement of the previous MBP15, and I only jumped in after glowing reviews from many reviewers. It is a very good machine, and still has the option for more RAM and a more powerful GPU than any M1 Mac (my MBP16 has 32GB RAM, 8GB 5500M).

I know a lot of people complain that the MBP16 is too hot and noisy, but this isn't my experience in normal use....but then again, I use a DisplayLink dock, so I'm not taxing the GPU except when I do photo/video editing. Real-world battery life is not great and for my workloads, it's not enough for a day's work unplugged.

Overall, the MBP16 is a pretty solid machine, and if the M1 hadn't turned up as the new kid on the block, the MBP16 would still be kicking-butt. It's still a force to be reckoned with, but if we see an M1X mid-next-year, it will become less relevant.


I know I'll be in a minority here, and it is probably a stupid question. But, if the MBP is such a solid machine, and up until the day before the M1 announcement, was doing everything you needed it to, was/is there any need for you to get an M1 system?

The Intel Mac is no more irrelevant than it was before that point, it performs no differently, its lifespan is no shorter, it'll still get OS updates for years to come. The software you have just now is guaranteed to be compatible and stable with your Intel system. If you ever need Bootcamp, or any X86 VM, you've still got the best laptop for it and so on, and so on.

Yes, the M1 is amazing (and yes, I'm a hypocrite, because I'm getting one too), but I think if I'd just bought your MBP, I'd pass for the time being. I remember vividly when it first happened to me, when they switched from the G5 to Intel, my G5 was less than a year old. That was a big improvement and a complete architecture change as well, but I didn't just jump on the bandwagon, not until performance and software compatibility dictated that I needed to........ Though it is always tempting when lovely new toys come along, I of all people cannot deny that :D
 
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Nicole1980

Suspended
Mar 19, 2010
696
1,551
I know I'll be in a minority here

I think there's a lot of people like us.

Like you said, the M1 is the new shiny toy. So I think people want to brag on their new purchase. But like I said in my post above, speed is only part of a very large equation when I'm looking for a tool, a computer that meets my needs. Compatability and stability are actually more important to me than something that runs a few benchmarks and select programs a little faster.
 

AAPLGeek

macrumors 6502a
Nov 12, 2009
731
2,271
+1

I bought a 2019 8-core 27 inch iMac off the refurb store just this summer and have ZERO regrets.

Why? Because I have a large swath of software, from the latest version of Premiere Pro to older (even some 32-bit) stuff. I also have a good number of Windows programs and games that I love and use in bootcamp, or windows virtualization. On even the most demanding programs and games, the iMac runs smooth as butter, and stays cool and quiet.

So for me, compatibility and stability are way more important than a little more speed.

If my main use of my Mac was to run benchmarks, I suppose the M1 would be a good choice for me ?. But my main use is to run a wide swath of software, smoothly and without a hitch. So I have no interest in the M1 Macs for now, and probably won't for a good long while.

+1

A computer is only as good the software you can run on it and as of today an Intel Mac is compatible with infinitely more software and hardware than a M1 Mac.
 

TrueBlou

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2014
4,531
3,619
Scotland
I think there's a lot of people like us.

Like you said, the M1 is the new shiny toy. So I think people want to brag on their new purchase. But like I said in my post above, speed is only part of a very large equation when I'm looking for a tool, a computer that meets my needs. Compatability and stability are actually more important to me than something that runs a few benchmarks and select programs a little faster.

You're absolutely right, of course. I didn't actually see your post until I had finished typing mine, but I do completely agree with it.

In all honesty, I wouldn't be getting an M1 just now either, if it wasn't for the fact it's one of the gifts my parents want to get me for Christmas. They always go crazy with presents for me and the wife at Christmas, birthday, any bloody excuse day :rolleyes: After 30 odd years of trying to get them not to, I've given up, it just ends in a major argument.

Anyhooooo, My late 2015 iMac might be a bit slow with some of the things I do, I won't deny that, but I'm pretty sure I could cope with it for at least another couple of years. Aside from taking a bit (sometimes an awful lot) longer with certain tasks than I'd like it to, it works perfectly. It's really not ready for the scrap-heap yet at all. So it'll be getting donated to someone when I get my new Air.
 

Nicole1980

Suspended
Mar 19, 2010
696
1,551
Anyhooooo, My late 2015 iMac might be a bit slow with some of the things I do, I won't deny that, but I'm pretty sure I could cope with it for at least another couple of years.

Take out that horrible spinning portion of the fusion drive and add a SATA SSD in that slot. I've done that with all my iMacs I've ever had. That's probably one of the biggest reasons your 2015 iMac feels a bit slow. The fusion drive is a massive bottleneck.
 

TrueBlou

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2014
4,531
3,619
Scotland
Take out that horrible spinning portion of the fusion drive and add a SATA SSD in that slot. I've done that with all my iMacs I've ever had. That's probably one of the biggest reasons your 2015 iMac feels a bit slow. The fusion drive is a massive bottleneck.

Thanks, but I've already done that, I don't think I could cope with a traditional HDD as my main one in any system these days. But, good advice nonetheless.
 

TrueBlou

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2014
4,531
3,619
Scotland
lol! And good for you! I guess I stand corrected then :)

Still good advice to have put up for anyone who might be reading this and hasn't done it.

I'm an old-fashioned kinda guy, there's no stupid questions, no bad suggestions and no such thing as unwelcome advice in my book. We all learn best, when we learn from someone else.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
Not really mad at myself - I bought what I needed at the time and have used that machine solidly for a year. I spent what I needed to, to get the spec I required.

Just feeling the pleasure of ownership somewhat deflated by the perceived reduction in value of a major investment resulting from technological advance, which is, of course, inevitable over time.

Apple made a huge leap in price/performance with the M1 - previous improvements have been much slower.

In the past, I found that there wasn't any point in upgrading a Mac for 3-5 years, because the performance improvements year-on-year were not very significant. After 5 years you could see a 50-80% improvement in performance, which was worth having, and for a 5-year-old machine, this wasn't a "painful" upgrade.

Apple has achieved this in one year, which naturally makes me now feel that my purchase last year doesn't represent great value...but only with hindsight. Had we known the M1 would be here a year later, I would have spent less on a stop-gap machine. But of course, no-one outside Apple knew this would happen.

I'm not complaining...the M1 is great, and my MBP16 is still a good computer. It's just fallen down the rankings more quickly than expected. It's technology...it happens...sometimes more quickly than we expect.

Just an observation, not a complaint :)
The things of yours that I've highlighted in bold are utter silliness; I'm sorry. The fact that the initial batch of M1 Macs are so fast and thermal efficient shouldn't make your 16" MacBook Pro, the pinnacle of portable Mac computing in the Intel era, seem like a poor value. It's still a FANTASTIC value. This is probably the last Mac portable with discrete graphics, in all likelihood. It will certainly be the last one to run x86 OSes natively or virtually without emulation. The fact that Apple Silicon's initial speed boosts are dramatic, shouldn't reduce "the pleasure of ownership" due to feeling like it is "deflated by the perceived reduction in value". If you find that to be the case, you can totally PM me and I'll give you my address and you can ship that machine to me, no problem!
I feel for the people who just bought the 2020 before the M1, that sucks IMO....

Looking at stores - Costco, Bestbuy....lots of great deals on these vintage () Intel Macs....
I don't. Either they were in the know about this, in which case it matters. Or they weren't, in which case they probably don't care. Or, they're like me and need to stick with Intel for a while because things on the Apple Silicon side don't have features still present on the Intel side.
Well...there were rumors but not facts I would have risked a purchase decision on. And I don't think anyone knew the timing....people have talked about ARM-based Macs being "just around the corner" for years. The iPad was a great indicator of possible performance, but running MacOS on these chips was a big unknown.

Ever since the transition was announced, there was talk of a MacBook Air and a 13" Pro running on Apple SoC's being released during the 2020 calendar year. With Big Sur being the first release compatible with Apple SoC's, that meant that the launch wouldn't be earlier than September. That right there was a 3 month window.

I didn't expect the performance to be as good as it has proven to be.

I still excited by new tech though, and it's a very positive thing overall. All of our gadgets are obsolescent the moment they are released; it's just a fact of life. Provided you get plenty of use out of them, it's all good.
Apple products aren't obsolete until they can no longer run the latest version of the OS (even then, Macs get another two years of being able to be patched on the version they're stuck at). Otherwise, they continue to function with new OSes until they stop getting security updates. That's when they're truly obsolete. Not at the point of discontinuation.
+1

I bought a 2019 8-core 27 inch iMac off the refurb store just this summer and have ZERO regrets.

Why? Because I have a large swath of software, from the latest version of Premiere Pro to older (even some 32-bit) stuff. I also have a good number of Windows programs and games that I love and use in bootcamp, or windows virtualization. On even the most demanding programs and games, the iMac runs smooth as butter, and stays cool and quiet.

So for me, compatibility and stability are way more important than a little more speed.

If my main use of my Mac was to run benchmarks, I suppose the M1 would be a good choice for me ?. But my main use is to run a wide swath of software, smoothly and without a hitch. So I have no interest in the M1 Macs for now, and probably won't for a good long while.

You do know that there are real-world tests being performed (not just benchmarks) where the M1 Macs are smoking even top end iMacs, right? Like, real world performance is there on most things. Proven fact. Not even up for debate anymore.

Not saying you should rush out and get one or feel like your 2019 8-core iMac is obsolete the way the OP feels about his 16" MacBook Pro right now. But, it's possible that a good deal of your things run fine in Rosetta 2 (which, on average, boasts speeds for most apps that still surpass native performance on Intel).

Again, sticking with Intel for compatibility concerns is sensible. Though, it is seeming like that's not as big of a concern as most would think.


+1

A computer is only as good the software you can run on it and as of today an Intel Mac is compatible with infinitely more software and hardware than a M1 Mac.
Hardware, I'll grant you. Software, not as much, unless you're counting 32-bit Intel apps (which won't even run on any 16" MacBook Pro or 2020 13" MacBook Pro [M1 or Intel]). Unless you're picky about whether or not Rosetta 2 is used, I'd say that the difference between software compatible with an Intel Mac and an Apple Silicon Mac is far from "Infinite".
 
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polyphenol

macrumors 68020
Sep 9, 2020
2,137
2,611
Wales
Take out that horrible spinning portion of the fusion drive and add a SATA SSD in that slot. I've done that with all my iMacs I've ever had. That's probably one of the biggest reasons your 2015 iMac feels a bit slow. The fusion drive is a massive bottleneck.
Did that to partner's very old iMac a few years ago. Changed it from being barely usable to being fine (for her usage) for a few more years. Then got a new iMac for her - and as I looked at the specs, could hardly believe anything other than SSDs was available. The idea of spending anywhere around two thousand pounds and ending up with a Fusion or any other hard drive seemed crazy. I think we both agreed a lower spec of processor, graphics or memory was preferable.
 

TrueBlou

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2014
4,531
3,619
Scotland
Did that to partner's very old iMac a few years ago. Changed it from being barely usable to being fine (for her usage) for a few more years. Then got a new iMac for her - and as I looked at the specs, could hardly believe anything other than SSDs was available. The idea of spending anywhere around two thousand pounds and ending up with a Fusion or any other hard drive seemed crazy. I think we both agreed a lower spec of processor, graphics or memory was preferable.


Yeah, it is baffling - ok, it's not exactly baffling, its Apple, so....Profits - that it took them so long to get rid of spinning disks in their systems. At the prices we pay for the bloody things, you'd think an SSD would have been the de facto choice in all of them a long time ago.
 
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Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 6, 2020
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The things of yours that I've highlighted in bold are utter silliness; I'm sorry. The fact that the initial batch of M1 Macs are so fast and thermal efficient shouldn't make your 16" MacBook Pro, the pinnacle of portable Mac computing in the Intel era, seem like a poor value. It's still a FANTASTIC value. This is probably the last Mac portable with discrete graphics, in all likelihood. It will certainly be the last one to run x86 OSes natively or virtually without emulation. The fact that Apple Silicon's initial speed boosts are dramatic, shouldn't reduce "the pleasure of ownership" due to feeling like it is "deflated by the perceived reduction in value". If you find that to be the case, you can totally PM me and I'll give you my address and you can ship that machine to me, no problem!

I don't. Either they were in the know about this, in which case it matters. Or they weren't, in which case they probably don't care. Or, they're like me and need to stick with Intel for a while because things on the Apple Silicon side don't have features still present on the Intel side.


Ever since the transition was announced, there was talk of a MacBook Air and a 13" Pro running on Apple SoC's being released during the 2020 calendar year. With Big Sur being the first release compatible with Apple SoC's, that meant that the launch wouldn't be earlier than September. That right there was a 3 month window.


Apple products aren't obsolete until they can no longer run the latest version of the OS (even then, Macs get another two years of being able to be patched on the version they're stuck at). Otherwise, they continue to function with new OSes until they stop getting security updates. That's when they're truly obsolete. Not at the point of discontinuation.


You do know that there are real-world tests being performed (not just benchmarks) where the M1 Macs are smoking even top end iMacs, right? Like, real world performance is there on most things. Proven fact. Not even up for debate anymore.

Not saying you should rush out and get one or feel like your 2019 8-core iMac is obsolete the way the OP feels about his 16" MacBook Pro right now. But, it's possible that a good deal of your things run fine in Rosetta 2 (which, on average, boasts speeds for most apps that still surpass native performance on Intel).

Again, sticking with Intel for compatibility concerns is sensible. Though, it is seeming like that's not as big of a concern as most would think.



Hardware, I'll grant you. Software, not as much, unless you're counting 32-bit Intel apps (which won't even run on any 16" MacBook Pro or 2020 13" MacBook Pro [M1 or Intel]). Unless you're picky about whether or not Rosetta 2 is used, I'd say that the difference between software compatible with an Intel Mac and an Apple Silicon Mac is far from "Infinite".
I said "obsolescent" not "obsolete", i.e. becoming obsolete, and part of a continuous trend at the end of which the item is definitevely replaced by something newer and better. It is entirely correct to describe Intel Macs as obsolescent because within a few years' time, they will have been replaced by Apple Silicon Macs.

On the timing of my purchase - I bought the MBP16 in November 2019; AFAIK, there only vague rumors about Apple Silicon Macs coming up in 2020, and given the fact this had been talked about more many years, it was not something we could have reliably predicted.

As for my comments being "utter silliness", don't take them too seriously; I merely tried to express my subjective feelings on the matter. It's pretty normal to have mixed feelings when you realize that circumstances have reduced the perceived value of your earlier purchase decisions - i.e. Intel Macs will most likely depreciate more quickly than if the M1 had not been released. Similar to when you change money or buy stocks thinking that you've chosen the best time in the market, and then it gets better shortly afterward....the regret of missing the opportunity for more gain for less cost.

In my case, it's also the realization that I probably don't need an Intel Mac at all - I don't need to run Windows, and haven't found any significant problems running the software I need on an M1 Mac. This is, of course, a good thing for me, because it means my needs align to what Apple will produce in the future. If I had some application that only worked on Intel Macs or needed the discrete GPU, then the MBP16 would retain its utility - but I don't...with the possible exception of Docker, which looks like will be fully available on Apple Silicon quite soon.

I totally understand that other people's needs and feelings are different to mine.
 
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Nicole1980

Suspended
Mar 19, 2010
696
1,551
I, for one, am delighted that I just bought a second top end 2019 Intel iMac from the apple refurb store. I have software going back a decade (both windows and Mac) that I can still run on these machines (running Mojave).

Additionally, the latest version of Premiere Pro runs like a dream on these systems, and all of my other latest and greatest software I throw at it.

So all the 'd... measuring' stuff about benchmarks means nothing to me. I'm at home with a system that runs both new and old software perfectly.

Go ahead and enjoy the supposed "future" boys. Me? I'll be back here in the 'past' ... perfectly content where I am - and will be for quite some time.
 
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