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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
No one is taking away Apple's freedom to try to make their case such as the "Safari is three different browsers" argument. These sorts of arguments/discussions/negotiations can be common during a litigation process. Whether or not I agree with their argument(s) can be a different matter but I would be quite fine with this going to court if that is the path it ends up taking but we're not there (at least not yet). Apple can choose to comply with the law, fight it (in and/or out of court) or stop doing business in the EU.
I didn't say anything about the "Safari is three different browsers" argument. You compared the DMA to the Microsoft settlement. I pointed out the difference is that the EU skipped the courts and went straight to a non-negotiated remedy.

Similar to your repeated argument that the DMA is justified because you believe Apple was breaking previous laws. Which again implies that the EU skipped due process and went straight to the punishment.

As I said, I consider skipping due process anathema to a free society.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,433
2,271
Scandinavia
No, you're not. Your reply had nothing to do with my post. The poster I replied to compared the DMA to Microsoft's antitrust settlement with the DOJ. I pointed out that the big difference between the two is that the EU skipped the courts and decided to force a non-negotiated "settlement."
That’s not the difference. No settlement was made or forced. No courts have been skipped.

This is just the Pre-trial pleadings with the regulatory body.


The DMA is a regulation that impact a lot of companies and services.
Yes. And coincidentally, some of those "specific behaviors" being targeted are only used by Apple. If you craft a law with provisions that require exactly one company to change their practice, that is certainly targeting.

Do you have any examples of specific behaviour only apple does? That only impacts apple? Everything in the regulation is supported on existing anti competitive law
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
That’s not the difference. No settlement was made or forced. No courts have been skipped.

This is just the Pre-trial pleadings with the regulatory body.


The DMA is a regulation that impact a lot of companies and services.
In the analogy we were discussing, the forced settlement that I was referring to is the DMA. Again, another poster, not me, compared the Microsoft settlement to the DMA.

Do you have any examples of specific behaviour only apple does? That only impacts apple?
Sure. Sideloading and web browsers. No other qualifying gatekeeper doesn't allow sideloading or alternative browser engines.

Everything in the regulation is supported on existing anti competitive law
No, it's not. That's why there is a new law and not a court case where the government has to prove "gatekeepers" are violating "existing anti competitive law".
 

webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,917
2,527
United States
I didn't say anything about the "Safari is three different browsers" argument. You compared the DMA to the Microsoft settlement. I pointed out the difference is that the EU skipped the courts and went straight to a non-negotiated remedy.

Similar to your repeated argument that the DMA is justified because you believe Apple was breaking previous laws. Which again implies that the EU skipped due process and went straight to the punishment.

As I said, I consider skipping due process anathema to a free society.

It implies nothing of the sort. Just as Apple is doing now, Microsoft tried to argue that they weren't violating laws/regulations. Microsoft had the same sorts of choices decades ago as Apple does today i.e., comply, fight in and/or out of court, or exit the market. Nothing was "skipped" then and nothing is being skipped right now.
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
It implies nothing of the sort. Just as Apple is doing now, Microsoft tried to argue that they weren't violating laws/regulations. Microsoft had the same sorts of choices decades ago as Apple does today i.e., comply, fight in and/or out of court, or exit the market. Nothing was "skipped" then and nothing is being skipped right now.
It's your own analogy!!! You compared the settlement to the DMA. You've argued in hundreds of posts that the DMA is justified because Apple violated existing antitrust law.

Microsoft
Sued by the FTC. Goes to court. Due process. Arguments. Depositions. Witnesses. Findings of Fact that Microsoft had a monopoly and took actions to crush competition. Negotiates a settlement after appeal.

Apple
Not sued. Doesn't go to court. Forced to abide by the DMA.
 
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d686546s

macrumors 6502a
Jan 11, 2021
662
1,603
In the analogy we were discussing, the forced settlement that I was referring to is the DMA. Again, another poster, not me, compared the Microsoft settlement to the DMA.

But, as you yourself keep pointing out, the analogy is incorrect. Why do you keep doubling down on it?

Which again implies that the EU skipped due process and went straight to the punishment.

As I said, I consider skipping due process anathema to a free society.

Which is a strange argument, especially if one keeps arguing that the analogy is wrong in the first place.

Due process wasn't skipped because, as is the case in free democratic societies, the DMA is the result of the regular legislative process in the EU.

Even if Apple might be more affected by some parts of it, which says more about how locked down and potentially anti-competitive Apple is in some respects rather than being specifically targeted, most of the DMA is not really about Apple in particular, even if the coverage on MacRumors sometimes makes it appear that way.

Apple
Not sued. Doesn't go to court. Forced to abide by the DMA.

Well, yes, one is usually forced to abide by the law. Apple hasn't been sued because it hasn't broken any laws, but it has been given notice that it needs to be compliant when the time comes.

If it doesn't, it will face the penalties and remedies as set out in legislation and due process will be followed.

But again you're not really arguing it's an applicable analogy, so why argue it in the first place?
 

webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,917
2,527
United States
It's your own analogy!!! You compared the settlement to the DMA. You've argued in hundreds of posts that the DMA is justified because Apple violated existing antitrust law.

Microsoft
Sued by the FTC. Goes to court. Due process. Arguments. Depositions. Witnesses. Findings of Fact that Microsoft had a monopoly and took actions to crush competition. Negotiates a settlement after appeal.

Apple
Not sued. Doesn't go to court. Forced to abide by the DMA.

Microsoft had a choice of complying, fighting, or leaving the market.
Apple has a choice of complying, fighting, or leaving the market.

If Apple does not comply with the laws, they presumably will be sued just as Microsoft eventually was.

Once again, nothing is being skipped at this point.
 
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Varking

macrumors regular
Jan 12, 2010
110
73
And people had choices for desktop operating systems in the 1990s (Mac OS, OS/2, Linux, BeOS, etc.) but that didn't make restrictions on Windows or anticompetitive behavior by Microsoft right.
Doesn’t really answer my question. Folks complaining right now can easily switch to Android. Heck I’ve been back and forth through the years back when rooting my device was important to me. I had the option to leave Apple and I did. Nobody is locked into using these other things. Developers aren’t required to use apples App Store. There are developers who are Android only.
 
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webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,917
2,527
United States
Doesn’t really answer my question. Folks complaining right now can easily switch to Android. Heck I’ve been back and forth through the years back when rooting my device was important to me. I had the option to leave Apple and I did. Nobody is locked into using these other things. Developers aren’t required to use apples App Store. There are developers who are Android only.

My point there was that just because people can switch is not necessarily relevant as far as antitrust laws are concerned.

But, yes, of course people can switch. However, many users like other features of iPhones and/or iPads and would want to be able to continue to use those features while also being able to sideload, use alternative app stores, browser engines, etc. Some simply don't like Android for whatever reasons. Some are looking at this from an antitrust/legal standpoint, a business/developer standpoint, etc.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
But, as you yourself keep pointing out, the analogy is incorrect. Why do you keep doubling down on it?
I'm not doubling down on it. I'm using the consequences of the analogy to reject the premise that the DMA is justified because Apple was violating existing antitrust laws which has been argued hundreds of times in this forum, particularly by the poster that I responded to.

Due process wasn't skipped because, as is the case in free democratic societies, the DMA is the result of the regular legislative process in the EU.
I disagree. Voting to punish individual companies certainly bypasses due process. Just as passing a law to imprison an individual would violate due process.

Even if Apple might be more affected by some parts of it, which says more about how locked down and potentially anti-competitive Apple is in some respects rather than being specifically targeted, most of the DMA is not really about Apple in particular, even if the coverage on MacRumors sometimes makes it appear that way.
I disagree that the DMA will improve competition. And certain regulations in the DMA do specifically target Apple.

The DMA was created to benefit European companies primarily by requiring specific foreign multi-nationals to provide services for free, rather than to incentivize competition.

Well, yes, one is usually forced to abide by the law. Apple hasn't been sued because it hasn't broken any laws, but it has been given notice that it needs to be compliant when the time comes.

If it doesn't, it will face the penalties and remedies as set out in legislation and due process will be followed.
I completely agree. I just think that the DMA is a bad law that targets the wrong practices. I'm all for regulation, but not bad regulation.

Microsoft had a choice of complying, fighting, or leaving the market.
Apple has a choice of complying, fighting, or leaving the market.

If Apple does not comply with the laws, they presumably will be sued just as Microsoft eventually was.

Once again, nothing is being skipped at this point.
Nope. In your analogy, again, you compared the Microsoft SETTLEMENT to the DMA. The settlement came AFTER the due process in the Microsoft case.
 

Kal Madda

macrumors 65816
Nov 2, 2022
1,365
1,020
Of course there is, there are tons of threads in MR only.

Ultimately by trying almost every other browser in macOS, you would see for yourself.

You cant even block ads without paying for a substandard extension.

Privacy bla bla.
False. There are plenty of good free ad-blockers for Safari. They may have paid versions with additional features like VPN and stuff, but the free versions have all the basic things you need from a good ad-blocker.

Oh, and whose add service is used for most of the adds I have to block? Oh, that’s right, Google…
 
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Kal Madda

macrumors 65816
Nov 2, 2022
1,365
1,020
Simply because the European market would have one evil company less that misuses their market power to lock-in customers by building up anticompetitive hardware and software combination traps to maintain their customer base. Other companies would quickly fill the gap and competition could simply go on in a competitive way.
Honest question here: if you think Apple is evil and all those other things you just said about it, then why are you hanging out on macrumors?
 
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Kal Madda

macrumors 65816
Nov 2, 2022
1,365
1,020
Well, companies that love to circumvent taxes on a large scale and build up an anticompetitive market on top has no value to any country, and the tax topic is the next thing the EU will tackle.

Yes, they will never close the shop here, greed is one of their core values, and their greed is starting to bounce back to the US. Just watch their unnecessary US price increases. If they would care for the humanity as shown in their fake ads, they would keep the prices stable or even lower it during harder economical times, specially since they are sitting on a pile of money.

Anyway, Apple would walk over dead bodies for a sack of gold.
Ya, so their manufacturing costs increase due to using more expensive hardware in their products like more expensive displays, etc., but you think they should just eat all of that extra cost and sell them cheaper? That’s not how business works. It’s not a matter of “greed” it’s a matter of, it isn’t sustainable…
 
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webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,917
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Nope. In your analogy, again, you compared the Microsoft SETTLEMENT to the DMA. The settlement came AFTER the due process in the Microsoft case.

The U.S. government, specifically the FTC, had been investigating and negotiating with Microsoft regarding antitrust matters for a few years before coming to a settlement in mid-1994. About two or three years later, the DOJ argued that Microsoft had violated the agreement particularly as it related to IE/browsers. An injunction was filed against Microsoft, negotiations took place and Microsoft agreed to make some concessions/adjustments but it still ultimately led to the 1998 DOJ case.

Similar is happening here with Apple. We are essentially in the investigation/negotiation/due process phase. Where things go from here as far as negotiations, settlements, lawsuits, etc. is up to Apple and the EU. Just as it was with Microsoft, the FTC, and DOJ in the 1990s.
 
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Kal Madda

macrumors 65816
Nov 2, 2022
1,365
1,020
@nvmls Please explain how there aren’t free ad-blocker extensions for Safari. Since I’m currently using one, and it works well and all…
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
The U.S. government, specifically the FTC, had been investigating and negotiating with Microsoft regarding antitrust matters for a few years before coming to a settlement in mid-1994. About two or three years later, the DOJ argued that Microsoft had violated the agreement particularly as it related to IE/browsers. An injunction was filed against Microsoft, negotiations took place and Microsoft agreed to make some concessions/adjustments but it still ultimately led to the 1998 DOJ case.

Similar is happening here with Apple. We are essentially in the investigation/negotiation/due process phase. Where things go from here as far as negotiations, settlements, lawsuits, etc. is up to Apple and the EU. Just as it was with Microsoft, the FTC, and DOJ in the 1990s.
If you can't stand by your own comparison, then simply recant. You said the DMA was comparable to the Microsoft settlement. Please stop moving the goalposts.

Again, it's NOT just like the Microsoft case, because Apple is being forced to make changes WITHOUT due process or legal findings of illegal behavior. The DMA is forcing them to make changes within the EU.
 
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Wildkraut

Suspended
Nov 8, 2015
3,583
7,673
Germany
Honest question here: if you think Apple is evil and all those other things you just said about it, then why are you hanging out on macrumors?
Did I say Apple is the only evil one? They round-robin for the title approx. every decade, currently it’s Apple.
 

nvmls

Suspended
Mar 31, 2011
1,941
5,219
@nvmls Please explain how there aren’t free ad-blocker extensions for Safari. Since I’m currently using one, and it works well and all…
Yea I'm sure it works great.

Please explain how a self-touted "privacy oriented" browser, fails to deliver a built-in ad blocker in almost 2024, with nearly all of it's competitors already serving this since long ago.

Waiting for that iPad calculator stock app to be released first?
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
Yea I'm sure it works great.

Please explain how a self-touted "privacy oriented" browser, fails to deliver a built-in ad blocker in almost 2024, with nearly all of it's competitors already serving this since long ago.

Waiting for that iPad calculator stock app to be released first?
Your claim that there are no free ad blockers for Safari was obviously wrong. And your new claim that "nearly all" other browsers have built-in ad blocking is also wrong. Neither Chrome nor Firefox has built-in ad blocking.

It you are referring to tracking protection, Safari does have that built in. Of course, ads without tracking are not a privacy issue.
 
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Kal Madda

macrumors 65816
Nov 2, 2022
1,365
1,020
Your claim that there are no free ad blockers for Safari was obviously wrong. And your new claim that "nearly all" other browsers have built-in ad blocking is also wrong. Neither Chrome nor Firefox has built-in ad blocking.

It you are referring to tracking protection, Safari does have that built in. Of course, ads without tracking are not a privacy issue.
Exactly, couldn’t have said it better myself. 👍🏻
 

InvertedGoldfish

Suspended
Jun 28, 2023
468
405
Somehow I don’t think this is for “the people”

Be nice if Apple told the EU to kick rocks

Folks like Apple more than the EU, they’ll buy them outside of the EU and the EU will lose some of its sweet sweet tax is loves so much, sounds like the EU is the one who needs a corrective behavior
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,433
2,271
Scandinavia
In the analogy we were discussing, the forced settlement that I was referring to is the DMA. Again, another poster, not me, compared the Microsoft settlement to the DMA.


Sure. Sideloading and web browsers. No other qualifying gatekeeper doesn't allow sideloading or alternative browser engines.
Google is prevented from requiring phone manufacturers to include chrome, Google play store, Google search and Google services. They are required to allow manufacturers to install android without having Google search
IMG_2091.jpeg

QNo, it's not. That's why there is a new law and not a court case where the government has to prove "gatekeepers" are violating "existing anti competitive law".
The government has to prove how and why a company qualifies as a gatekeeper, and a company can dispute the claim. Something Apple did.

This is a regulation.

It's your own analogy!!! You compared the settlement to the DMA. You've argued in hundreds of posts that the DMA is justified because Apple violated existing antitrust law.

Microsoft
Sued by the FTC. Goes to court. Due process. Arguments. Depositions. Witnesses. Findings of Fact that Microsoft had a monopoly and took actions to crush competition. Negotiates a settlement after appeal.

Apple
Not sued. Doesn't go to court. Forced to abide by the DMA.

  • 25 July 2023, to provide Apple with the right to be heard, the Commission sent Apple a letter outlining its preliminary views on Apple’s notification
  • 1 August 2023 Apple replied to the Commission’s letter.
  • 5 September 2023 commission gave their decision
Apple:
EU(parliament + council) passes new regulation> The DMA further obliges undertakings to notify the Commission where they meet three quantitative thresholds > Apple notified the Commission for gatekeeper status > Apple argue why iMessage, AppStore, iOS, iPadOS & safari should not be designated as a gatekeeper > EU commission refute the arguments> safari, AppStore and iOS meets the criteria and they rejected apples arguments.

iMessage was sufficiently argued to be investigated.
iPadOS was sufficiently argued to not be considered a CPS and therefore not considered a gatekeeper.

The DMA provides that an undertaking should be designated as a gatekeeper where it meets three qualitative criteria:
  • (1) it has significant impact on the internal market;
  • (2) it provides a specified service that is an important gateway for business users to reach end users; and
  • (3) it enjoys an entrenched and durable position (or it is foreseeable that it will enjoy such a position in the near future).
The DMA further obliges undertakings to notify the Commission where they meet three quantitative thresholds which act as a presumption for gatekeeper status:

  • The undertaking generates EU revenues of at least €7.5bn in each of the last three financial years, or had an average market capitalisation of at least €75bn in the last financial year, and the undertaking provides the same core platform service in at least three Member States.
  • In each of the last three financial years, the undertaking provides a core platform service with at least 45m EU monthly active end users in the last financial year, and at least 10,000 yearly active EU business users.
  • The undertaking met the second criteria in each of the last three financial years.
Undertakings that meet these thresholds have the opportunity to argue why they should not be designated as a gatekeeper and thus to rebut the presumption.

What I found extremely funny was the fact Apple used the exact same argumentation for both the AppStore, iPhone/iPad OS and safari :

Apple argued for the AppStore
  • that there are five device-specific versions of the AppStore.
  • each constitutes a separate CPS.
  • the different AppStores serve different purposes.
  • Only the iOS version of the AppStore offered for the iPhone meets the quantitative thresholds for designation.
Apple argue for Safari
  • argued that there are three device-specific versions of safari.
  • the different Safari serve different purposes.
  • Only the iOS version of Safari offered for the iPhone meets the quantitative thresholds for designation.
(12)With respect to Apple’s online intermediation service App Store, Apple argued that there are five device-specific versions of the app store (i.e., iOS App Store, iPadOS App Store, etc.) which individually constitute distinct online intermediation services and therefore CPSs within the definition of the DMA. This is because, according to Apple, app stores serve different purposes from both an end user as well as a business user perspective depending on the device. According to Apple, only the iOS version of the App Store offered for the iPhone meets the quantitative thresholds for designation. The Commission designates Apple’s software application store App Store, which is currently offered on different Apple devices running on iOS, iPadOS, macOS, watchOS and tvOS (together the ‘App Store’), as a single CPS, irrespective of the device on which it is used. This is because, based on the evidence in the file, the App Store is used for the same common purpose from both an end user and a business user perspective across all devices on which it is available, namely to intermediate the distribution of apps.
(13)With respect to Apple’s web browser Safari, Apple submitted that Safari offered on different Apple devices running on iOS, iPadOS and macOS each constitutes a separate CPS, and that only Safari on iOS meets the quantitative thresholds for designation. Apple contends that Safari is device-specific and is used differently by end users and business users depending on the device. The Commission designates Safari as a single CPS, irrespective of the device on which it is offered. This is based on the fact that Safari serves a common purpose across devices, namely that of providing end users and business users with a tool to offer, access and interact with web content.
 

webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,917
2,527
United States
If you can't stand by your own comparison, then simply recant. You said the DMA was comparable to the Microsoft settlement. Please stop moving the goalposts.

Again, it's NOT just like the Microsoft case, because Apple is being forced to make changes WITHOUT due process or legal findings of illegal behavior. The DMA is forcing them to make changes within the EU.

There's nothing to recant. I still absolutely feel they are comparable in that both situations involve(d) antitrust laws/regulations tied to alleged dominant tech companies and alleged anticompetitive behavior. Both involve(d) due process which did or can potentially include negotiations, settlements, injunctions, lawsuits, appeals, etc. Again, both companies had or have a choice to comply, fight (which Apple is attempting to do now with arguments like "Safari is three browsers") or leave the market.

If you can't recognize all of the similarities, there's no point in continuing this discussion.
 
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d686546s

macrumors 6502a
Jan 11, 2021
662
1,603
I'm not doubling down on it. I'm using the consequences of the analogy to reject the premise that the DMA is justified because Apple was violating existing antitrust laws which has been argued hundreds of times in this forum, particularly by the poster that I responded to.

Fair enough, although I'd personally argue the point is the other way around: the DMA is justified because Apple (and, for the record, many others) were engaging in anti-competitive behaviour that wasn't properly addressed by existing antitrust legislation. If it had been the DMA would be superfluous.

I disagree. Voting to punish individual companies certainly bypasses due process.

Just because there may be parts of the DMA that Apple is particularly affected by doesn't mean Apple was specifically targeted or that Apple's due process rights have somehow been violated. What would those be in this scenario anyway?

Apple still has the full range of regulatory and judicial remedies available to challenge the findings of the application to the DMA to its services. It's been a while since I've actually looked at EU law, but I tend to believe that this would also include a challenge to the legality of the DMA itself, provided Apple has standing.

But I don't know why a legislator would be prohibited from addressing undesirable outcomes if they are only caused by a single company (and one with significant market reach and power at that).

The DMA was created to benefit European companies primarily by requiring specific foreign multi-nationals to provide services for free, rather than to incentivize competition.

There's no denying that the driving idea behind the DMA is to give competitors, and preferably European ones, a fighting chance against big American tech, although I disagree that it's about "providing services for free." In what sense would this be true?

They need to open up, yes, and make some services interoperable, which is about as close as it gets to your characterisation.

Whether it will have the desired effect remains to be seen, but in the absence of the very unlikely rise of yet another mobile platform, the only way to incentivise competition is by levelling the playing field.

Again, it's NOT just like the Microsoft case, because Apple is being forced to make changes WITHOUT due process or legal findings of illegal behavior. The DMA is forcing them to make changes within the EU.

Again, Apple can challenge all of this using the established regulatory and judicial proceedings.

Companies have to adjust to changing regulatory and legislative frameworks all the time, that's not a violation of their due process rights unless the legislator overstepped its constitutional powers, but it doesn't sound like this is the case here.

There is no need to find evidence of illegal behaviour in advance because that's not how law making works.

I absolutely agree with your point that this isn't comparable to the Microsoft case, but it feels to me as if you're using the rebuttal to make broader points about the DMA that make just as little sense. If that's not the case I do apologise for misunderstanding you.
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
Google is prevented from requiring phone manufacturers to include chrome, Google play store, Google search and Google services. They are required to allow manufacturers to install android without having Google search
View attachment 2308465

The government has to prove how and why a company qualifies as a gatekeeper, and a company can dispute the claim. Something Apple did.

This is a regulation.



  • 25 July 2023, to provide Apple with the right to be heard, the Commission sent Apple a letter outlining its preliminary views on Apple’s notification
  • 1 August 2023 Apple replied to the Commission’s letter.
  • 5 September 2023 commission gave their decision
Apple:
EU(parliament + council) passes new regulation> The DMA further obliges undertakings to notify the Commission where they meet three quantitative thresholds > Apple notified the Commission for gatekeeper status > Apple argue why iMessage, AppStore, iOS, iPadOS & safari should not be designated as a gatekeeper > EU commission refute the arguments> safari, AppStore and iOS meets the criteria and they rejected apples arguments.

iMessage was sufficiently argued to be investigated.
iPadOS was sufficiently argued to not be considered a CPS and therefore not considered a gatekeeper.



What I found extremely funny was the fact Apple used the exact same argumentation for both the AppStore, iPhone/iPad OS and safari :

Apple argued for the AppStore
  • that there are five device-specific versions of the AppStore.
  • each constitutes a separate CPS.
  • the different AppStores serve different purposes.
  • Only the iOS version of the AppStore offered for the iPhone meets the quantitative thresholds for designation.
Apple argue for Safari
  • argued that there are three device-specific versions of safari.
  • the different Safari serve different purposes.
  • Only the iOS version of Safari offered for the iPhone meets the quantitative thresholds for designation.
I have no idea what a single thing in this post has to do with what I said. It's like you read a few keywords and then go all stream of consciousness.
 
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