Apple can choose to make SSD upgrade-able and replaceable but choose not to. Why?

[exoticSpice]

The Mac Studio proves that Apple Silicon can have modular SSD. Then why doesn't Apple use that in the MBP and MBA. A small M.2 drive would easily fit in that laptop. Heck, even MS provides replaceable M.2 drives in case of failure.

Why is Apple so against this? Apple talks about how they are green but having a modular SSD means that when it fails the user or even the Apple Store technician can easily replace the drive without replacing the whole logic-board.


It's crazy such a simple thing is not available in a computer. Apple also says they don't do data recovery which is also stupid, they solder the drive on laptops and provide no means of getting data back. I know about backups and they are important but on a laptop you are on the go and you will have important files on local storage.

It is also sane for the user to know the data is safe when the drive is modular as the user can hold onto to drive when sending the laptop back to Apple to get a replacement drive.

I am not talking from a upgrade able perspective but from a ease of repair and data security view.

It's even more bonkers that they make the SSD modular when it suits Apple.

 

[4sallypat]

Since we found out that the removable Studio SSD can not be changed, swapped, add a 2nd SSD, etc...

What bothers me is why make it more expensive to manufacture using removable SSD in the Studio that a user can't fiddle with ?

Isn't it cheaper to make a fully soldered in place SSD like my M1 Mini, M1 iMac, and M1 Macbook Pro ???

What is Apple doing - I can't follow what their plan....

 

[exoticSpice]

Isn't it cheaper to make a fully soldered in place SSD like my M1 Mini, M1 iMac, and M1 Macbook Pro ???

Probably not, otherwise Apple would do that. Apple is very on top of this. It was cheaper for Apple to make the drive modular in the Mac Studio than in the other Macs.

If Apple can drive down costs they will.

What is Apple doing - I can't follow what they plan....

Apple can do this in the MacBook, iMac and Mac Studio. So when the SSD fails the user can easily replace it.

If Apple was really into saving the environment and that was Apple's goal it would not solder SSD's at all. When the SSD is soldered apple replaces the whole board and gives the user a new board and I don't think that is friendly to the environment.

It is also why Apple charges so much when a drive fails nowadays as they replace the whole board. It's crazy and stupid and I don'y why Mac users just go along with it.

 

[robco74]

I suggest you check out Hector Martin's Twitter for an explanation. He's been behind the Asahi Linux project, and has been learning quite a bit about M1 in the process.

 

[Boomhowler]

I suggest you check out Hector Martin's Twitter for an explanation. He's been behind the Asahi Linux project, and has been learning quite a bit about M1 in the process.

yeah, that was a very informative thread actually. It's much better than what I anticipated, even though it also means that replacing the drive is much more difficult

 

[exoticSpice]

yeah, that was a very informative thread actually. It's much better than what I anticipated, even though it also means that replacing the drive is much more difficult

I did but Apple could the SSD controller on the motherboard instead in the SoC. There would not be any speed difference.

 

[ADGrant]

I did but Apple could the SSD controller on the motherboard instead in the SoC. There would not be any speed difference.

There might be and it would certainly be less secure.

 

[exoticSpice]

There might be and it would certainly be less secure.

No there would not any security issue. The SSD could be encrypted via software in macOS.

 

[robco74]

Doesn't putting extra chips on the mainboard kinda defeat the whole purpose of an SoC though?

 

[BellSystem]

If I had to make a guess other that cost. Service and repair. Probably easier and cheaper to only replace the logic board for logic board repairs. Apple likely has a tool to rekey (or whatever) the drive. I am also not convinced the second slot is dead. It’s probably a RAID for the larger size and doesn’t need a second controller. The SSDs are after all not standard. OWC will figure that out.

 

[ctjack]

2 reasons:
1) "Glued" welded ssd is cheaper to produce than removable.
2) It is hard to achieve high speeds of Apple ssd's in case of using removables: you have to beg samsung to sell their top of the line ssds which is only on par with Apple.

 

[MRxROBOT]

If I had to make a guess other that cost. Service and repair. Probably easier and cheaper to only replace the logic board for logic board repairs. Apple likely has a tool to rekey (or whatever) the drive. I am also not convinced the second slot is dead. It’s probably a RAID for the larger size and doesn’t need a second controller. The SSDs are after all not standard. OWC will figure that out.

This! So they can repair it but you can’t upgrade it. Forcing you to pay them for a new drive or or end up buying a new computer sooner than you might have otherwise. It’s all about the $$$

 

[robotica]

To make it easier to manufacture and to service. It’s for them, not us.

 

[MRxROBOT]

2 reasons:
1) "Glued" welded ssd is cheaper to produce than removable.
2) It is hard to achieve high speeds of Apple ssd's in case of using removables: you have to beg samsung to sell their top of the line ssds which is only on par with Apple.

None of these apply to the studio. It is socketed.

 

[exoticSpice]

Doesn't putting extra chips on the mainboard kinda defeat the whole purpose of an SoC though?

It's just one controller. The rest can be on the SoC.

 

[exoticSpice]

you have to beg samsung to sell their top of the line ssds

Apple charges $600 for a 2TB SSD. Meanwhile Samsung SSD's cost less than like half the price. Apple has insane markups.

 

[ouimetnick]

2 reasons:
1) "Glued" welded ssd is cheaper to produce than removable.
2) It is hard to achieve high speeds of Apple ssd's in case of using removables: you have to beg samsung to sell their top of the line ssds which is only on par with Apple.

Is the socketed SSD in Mac Studio slower than the SSD in MacBook Pro 14" & 16"?

As far as why Apple solders the SSD in everything, it comes down to cost. It's cheaper to have a pick and place machine place the nand flash chips right on the logic board rather than have a socket installed, and purchasing a completed SSD elsewhere. They probably do a cost analysis and look at internal warranty data when making that decision was well. It's also a great incentive to force the customer to pay Apple their crazy high prices to have more storage at the time of purchase, and failing that, it gives them an excuse to sell the customer a new machine.

 

[ctjack]

Is the socketed SSD in Mac Studio slower than the SSD in MacBook Pro 14" & 16"?

Surprisingly tests of the. "Artisright" on youtube show the same: studio is slower than comparably sized 14/16.

 

[SpotOnT]

Ya all the tests I have seen show the Mac Studio is a bit slower than the 14/16". Maybe because it is socketed.

 

[ouimetnick]

Surprisingly tests of the. "Artisright" on youtube show the same: studio is slower than comparably sized 14/16.
View attachment 1978265

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Ya all the tests I have seen show the Mac Studio is a bit slower than the 14/16". Maybe because it is socketed.

Curious to know if that translates into a noticeable real world experience or it its a fraction of a second faster or a whole minute. Small variances are a fine trade off for replaceable socketed storage imo.

 

[Gnattu]

It's just one controller. The rest can be on the SoC.

The top level ssd controller (the one implements nvme, with Apple flavor) is the under the same UMA architecture as other coprocessors like the GPU. It shares the main memory with the rest of the soc. Your design requires either extra DRAM module on board for SSD cache which increases cost and uses more power OR no dedicated DRAM cache at all and shares the main memory as cache using the relatively slow PCIe(or other buses, you name it) bus, which reduces performance. Also, to achieve the disk encryption Apple actually has a back channel from the controller to the secure enclave so that the main CPU never knows what is used to encrypt the ssd, a very strong approach. Funny enough, what you suggested is exactly what we have with modern Intel Macs, the T2 chip. That chip is the ssd controller on board as you wish, but you cannot get what you want either, and it is a worse solution to implement what Apple wants.

Just to add to the encryption, Apple designed their drives to be encrypted so that the data is (very) hard to be extracted by a person who is not the owner, even with physical access. The so-called data recovery is too expensive for an individual to use practically, if not impossible. You cannot remove the drive and then get the data from it, no way, because it is encrypted.

 

[ctjack]

Curious to know if that translates into a noticeable real world experience or it its a fraction of a second faster or a whole minute. Small variances are a fine trade off for replaceable socketed storage imo.

The truth is that it only matters in a vacuum: if it had 2 the same ssd inside, then we could say that if all you do is copy/paste/move the data from one ssd to another then you are going to win with soldered. But it doesn't have - copy/pasting within 1 ssd doesn't test the speeds.
We could say that you will win if you copy/paste the data all day to externals - truth is that your external will be a bottleneck to even slower studio's ssd.

Overall conclusion: you would have hard times to notice the speeds faster than 2000 and not going to see any difference by going any faster than that. It is just higher numbers make some people feel better.

 

[SpotOnT]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Curious to know if that translates into a noticeable real world experience or it its a fraction of a second faster or a whole minute. Small variances are a fine trade off for replaceable socketed storage imo.

There isn't that much of a difference in read speed - which is mainly what makes your Mac feel nice and responsive.

The only way I can think you might notice the lower write speeds is if you are doing a lot of swap between the RAM and SSD. Your Mac might just feel a smidgen slower. Maybe?

Of course you can compensate by getting a larger SSD. Write speed will go up with a larger SSD, so if you just get something bigger, that (theoretical) lag starts going away.

 

[tmoerel]

yeah, that was a very informative thread actually. It's much better than what I anticipated, even though it also means that replacing the drive is much more difficult

Don't think of it as a drive. It is only the storage part of what we traditionally call a drive. The controller is on the mainboard. It would be the same as separating the platters and the controller of a harddrive.
As this is a new paradigm we need new solutions. It is different from the PC era components.

 

[tmoerel]

Apple charges $600 for a 2TB SSD. Meanwhile Samsung SSD's cost less than like half the price. Apple has insane markups.

OK so find me a 2Tb Samsung SSD running 5GB/s+ at USD300!