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Apple can choose to make SSD upgrade-able and replaceable but choose not to. Why?

tmoerel said:
OK so find me a 2Tb Samsung SSD running 5GB/s+ at USD300!
Click to expand...
  • Capacity = 2TB
  • Read = up to 7GB/s
  • Write = up to 5.1GB/s
  • Cost = US$279
www.newegg.com

SAMSUNG 980 PRO M.2 2280 2TB PCIe Gen 4.0 x4, NVMe 1.3c Samsung V-NAND Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) MZ-V8P2T0B/AM - Newegg.com

Buy SAMSUNG 980 PRO SSD 2TB, PCIe 4.0 M.2 2280, Speeds Up-to 6,400MB/s Best for High End Computing, Gaming, and Heavy Duty Workstations (MZV8P2T0B/AM) with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!
www.newegg.com www.newegg.com
 
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tmoerel said:
OK so find me a 2Tb Samsung SSD running 5GB/s+ at USD300!
Click to expand...
Just look on amazon.

In a quick search, there's a Samsung 980 PRO SSD 2TB PCIe NVMe Gen 4 Gaming M.2 Internal Solid State that's $279 and it is supposedly 7GB/s. (I don't own one to verify that)
 
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Reply to original post: Because Apple can then easily replace the module if the SSD breaks. But because the SSD controller is in the SoC, you can't put a normal SSD in it and expect it to work.
 
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I used to be worried about the soldered on SSD, since that will ultimately be a point of failure... but I did some calculations, and with my usage the SSD would go bad in 30 years or thereabouts. Something else will go bad on the laptop before the SSD fails, especially the battery.

Personally I've never had a device with built in storage or RAM have parts fail on me... the iphones and ipads and now Macs have worked great for many years.

I had a couple white polycarbonate MacBooks, which I easily changed out the ram and harddrive, and both those parts went bad eventually. (a bit expected for the hard drive)

I think the soldered SSDs just solve some problems that are more important for Apple. It makes it easier to put some of the fastest SSDs, can make the devices smaller, fewer points of failure and simplifies manufacturing... and a very small amount of users will actually replace the storage. Also I think as devices get smaller, Apple just sees external storage as the natural solution to this problem.

My biggest problem is price, and being technically inclined enough to upgrade my own it was nice being able to avoid the apple tax with simple upgrades.

SSD prices on Macs are much better than they were though, they were stuck on 128GB for so long. 256GB is an okay starting point, and it's good you can go up 2TB if you really want to.

I upgraded my M1 Air to 1TB... but since the M1 Air is otherwise great for the cost, it was a little easier to justify.

For good or bad, the core hardware of a Mac is now more iPad like than ever. I've seen so many old iPads still kicking around, I'm okay with the Mac being more like an iPad.
 
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I just realised another thing. On my M1 MBP there is no PCI bus. The SSD seems to be directly connected to the SOC via something different. The ARM architecture works without the PCI bus needed for an NVME SSD so it is quite normal that Apple does not use NVME in the case of M1 Macs.
I think we need to think differently about the hardware of M1 machines and forget the old PC paradigm. Also an ARM computer does not have BIOS/UEFI as we know it. It has a simple bootstrap that then loads the needed firmware from the SSD. Again this is not how PCs work. It is a new world with new technologies and we should not assume our old knowledge applies. So instead of making a big fuss perhaps we should try to find out how these new technologies work.
But then again these forums seem to be frequented by many millenial snowflakes who feel entitled to claim and want things because they just can. And that results in a lot of negativity here. Perhaps before screaming your entitlement from the roofs, perhaps first try to understand the technological underpinnings of this new ARM world.
 
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exoticSpice said:
The Mac Studio proves that Apple Silicon can have modular SSD. Then why doesn't Apple use that in the MBP and MBA. A small M.2 drive would easily fit in that laptop. Heck, even MS provides replaceable M.2 drives in case of failure.

Why is Apple so against this? Apple talks about how they are green but having a modular SSD means that when it fails the user or even the Apple Store technician can easily replace the drive without replacing the whole logic-board.


It's crazy such a simple thing is not available in a computer. Apple also says they don't do data recovery which is also stupid, they solder the drive on laptops and provide no means of getting data back. I know about backups and they are important but on a laptop you are on the go and you will have important files on local storage.

It is also sane for the user to know the data is safe when the drive is modular as the user can hold onto to drive when sending the laptop back to Apple to get a replacement drive.

I am not talking from a upgrade able perspective but from a ease of repair and data security view.

It's even more bonkers that they make the SSD modular when it suits Apple.
Click to expand...

Let me first summarize what we know about Mac SSDs and the technical direction Apple chose. First, Apple cannot offer you M.2 drives since their SSDs don’t use M.2. They don’t even use PCIe for what we know. And they don’t even have their own controllers. SSDs on modern Macs are “bare” flash storage, directly connected to the chip using whatever proprietary interface Apple has, and are controlled by a dedicated processor inside the M1 SoC itself. This has a number of consequences. For one, the SSD on its own is worthless since the encryption keys are tied to the controller. Data recovery is practically impossible (that’s also part of Apples security first design). But in the other hand you get performance, consistency, low latency and reliability that is hard to find elsewhere. Since Apple views these devices as non-user-serviceable, this kind of arrangement works for them just fine.

Now, they could (and IMO, should) have SSDs slotted even in the laptops as it improves the repairability (not by the user of course). They could even offer user-replaceable SSDs, but of course, you would have to buy them from Apple. Which is probably why they don’t do it. Imagine the outcry. In fact, I might even speculate that they don’t do it so that they won’t be one a target of legal action. It’s one thing to say “SSD is part of an integrated system, it’s not modular” - some users won’t be happy of course, but there is a logic to it. It’s another thing to say “SSD is modular but you have to buy from Apple”. With the latter you run a risk that your behavior is found to violate user rights and be forced to support industry standard modular SSDs, at which point Apples storage quality is down in the gutter.
 
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tmoerel said:
I just realised another thing. On my M1 MBP there is no PCI bus. The SSD seems to be directly connected to the SOC via something different. The ARM architecture works without the PCI bus needed for an NVME SSD so it is quite normal that Apple does not use NVME in the case of M1 Macs.
I think we need to think differently about the hardware of M1 machines and forget the old PC paradigm. Also an ARM computer does not have BIOS/UEFI as we know it. It has a simple bootstrap that then loads the needed firmware from the SSD. Again this is not how PCs work. It is a new world with new technologies and we should not assume our old knowledge applies. So instead of making a big fuss perhaps we should try to find out how these new technologies work.
But then again these forums seem to be frequented by many millenial snowflakes who feel entitled to claim and want things because they just can. And that results in a lot of negativity here. Perhaps before screaming your entitlement from the roofs, perhaps first try to understand the technological underpinnings of this new ARM world.
Click to expand...
The SSDs on the T2 Intel Macs are implemented the same way with the controller on the ARM SoC.
 
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exoticSpice said:
The Mac Studio proves that Apple Silicon can have modular SSD. Then why doesn't Apple use that in the MBP and MBA. A small M.2 drive would easily fit in that laptop. Heck, even MS provides replaceable M.2 drives in case of failure.

Why is Apple so against this? Apple talks about how they are green but having a modular SSD means that when it fails the user or even the Apple Store technician can easily replace the drive without replacing the whole logic-board.


It's crazy such a simple thing is not available in a computer. Apple also says they don't do data recovery which is also stupid, they solder the drive on laptops and provide no means of getting data back. I know about backups and they are important but on a laptop you are on the go and you will have important files on local storage.

It is also sane for the user to know the data is safe when the drive is modular as the user can hold onto to drive when sending the laptop back to Apple to get a replacement drive.

I am not talking from a upgrade able perspective but from a ease of repair and data security view.

It's even more bonkers that they make the SSD modular when it suits Apple.
Click to expand...
Because money? :D
Tim-Cook-Money-Pile.jpg
 
They like overcharging everyone for upgrades at the time of purchase.

It's about money

Any other noises are mostly just distractions and/or attempts at justification

On laptops - fine I guess - whatever...
On the desktops, it's egregious money gouging
 
turbineseaplane said:
They like overcharging everyone for upgrades at the time of purchase.

It's about money

Any other noises are mostly just distractions and/or attempts at justification

On laptops - fine I guess - whatever...
On the desktops, it's egregious money gouging
Click to expand...

Nope

The issue here is no one here is actually aware of the whole sector reality because they are in an enthusiast bubble.

90% of people who buy a computer aren't going to upgrade it. Most of those don't even know what an SSD is. And probably 90% of the remaining users are going to get someone else to do it when they do. The whole actual stuffing a new SSD in your computer thing is really really really rare. Despite being in the IT sector myself, I know very few technical people who even bother futzing with their hardware at all.

What we have here is an echo chamber of technology enthusiasts who do it, not a pool of opinions worth trusting.

On desktops, the majority of the deployments are in corporates. Very few people have desktops at home now. They don't upgrade either. They buy an off the shelf configuration with what is required and swap it out while the user is at lunch or something and chuck the old computer in a store room. That older computer is either shipped off to a recycler or pooled in spare computer resources.

The only market for after-market storage is enthusiasts and people dealing with huge datasets and they really are the minority. And they can quite frankly whack an SSD in the back of it if they want to.

If you really need them the upsells aren't consequential for the purchase decision. Lots of people just like having the biggest dick to swing rather than buying a realistic config for their requirements.

Also on the pricing of the Apple stuff, you're not paying just for the lump of gear in front of you. You're paying for the 6 years or so of software support, cloud services and warranty unlike every other vendor who sees that as a potential loss in the race to the bottom pricing an delivers absolutely dire user experiences leveraging microsoft...
 
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turbineseaplane said:
They like overcharging everyone for upgrades at the time of purchase.

It's about money

Any other noises are mostly just distractions and/or attempts at justification

On laptops - fine I guess - whatever...
On the desktops, it's egregious money gouging
Click to expand...
LonestarOne said:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Apple is greedy. Profits are evil. We’ve heard that about a million times. So, go find a good socialist company that will give you everything you want for free. You’re not going to convince Apple to change its evil ways just by whining about it here.
Click to expand...

LonestarOne I guess it is your turn to show up, right?
 
I wonder what Apple's new engineers learn to create first: features that improve the customer experience or features that improve the company's revenue.
 
Danfango said:
Nope

The issue here is no one here is actually aware of the whole sector reality because they are in an enthusiast bubble.

90% of people who buy a computer aren't going to upgrade it. Most of those don't even know what an SSD is. And probably 90% of the remaining users are going to get someone else to do it when they do. The whole actual stuffing a new SSD in your computer thing is really really really rare. Despite being in the IT sector myself, I know very few technical people who even bother futzing with their hardware at all.

What we have here is an echo chamber of technology enthusiasts who do it, not a pool of opinions worth trusting.

On desktops, the majority of the deployments are in corporates. Very few people have desktops at home now. They don't upgrade either. They buy an off the shelf configuration with what is required and swap it out while the user is at lunch or something and chuck the old computer in a store room. That older computer is either shipped off to a recycler or pooled in spare computer resources.

The only market for after-market storage is enthusiasts and people dealing with huge datasets and they really are the minority. And they can quite frankly whack an SSD in the back of it if they want to.

If you really need them the upsells aren't consequential for the purchase decision. Lots of people just like having the biggest dick to swing rather than buying a realistic config for their requirements.

Also on the pricing of the Apple stuff, you're not paying just for the lump of gear in front of you. You're paying for the 6 years or so of software support, cloud services and warranty unlike every other vendor who sees that as a potential loss in the race to the bottom pricing an delivers absolutely dire user experiences leveraging microsoft...
Click to expand...
Yep, people just don't understand that enthustiats are a minority. They go to MacRumors and think that wow everyone is like them when in reality they are an EXTREME minority. 99% of people wouldn't replace an SSD even if it was an option. There is no reason for apple to increase the cost of the machine or make it even slightly worse (in terms of looks, size or speed) for that 1%.
 
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Boil said:
  • Capacity = 2TB
  • Read = up to 7GB/s
  • Write = up to 5.1GB/s
  • Cost = US$279
www.newegg.com

SAMSUNG 980 PRO M.2 2280 2TB PCIe Gen 4.0 x4, NVMe 1.3c Samsung V-NAND Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) MZ-V8P2T0B/AM - Newegg.com

Buy SAMSUNG 980 PRO SSD 2TB, PCIe 4.0 M.2 2280, Speeds Up-to 6,400MB/s Best for High End Computing, Gaming, and Heavy Duty Workstations (MZV8P2T0B/AM) with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!
www.newegg.com www.newegg.com
Click to expand...

It's $240 shipped and sold by Amazon. Apple's proprietary storage is just a way to lock in their 3x pricing profit ($600 to upgrade from 512GB to 2TB) and not have to price compete with industry standard SSD.

1648058941871.png
 
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Danfango said:
... PCIe Gen 4 .... it is supposedly 7GB/s.
Click to expand...
You can hang one off the back in an enclosure...
Click to expand...

Not going to get x4 PCI-e v4 bandwidth out of Thunderbolt ports which are provisioned with x4 PCI-e v3. 7GB/s --> 56Gb/s . max bandwidth from x4 PCI-e v3 ---> 32Gb/s .

Would be better off trying to by two PCI-e gen 3 drives hanging off of two different TBv4 ports and running softraid 0 against them to keep up. It will cost more.

The x4 PCI-e v4 and upcoming v5 SSDs are just out of reach for the Studio (and rest of Apple's entire Mac line up. Perhaps next 'Mac Pro' also if they don't do something substantively different. ).
 
Because Apple milks all of you fools with upgrades.

My 15” 2010 MBP could be maxed out with RAM and SDD for dirt cheap in comparison to what Apple charges.

And the funny thing is, the warranty of Apple was worse on top of this, as my RAM has life time warranty while Samsung was giving 5 years warranty for the SDD.

Apple knows how to make money. They even make you buy AppleCare which is still less warranty.
 
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