Apple CAN’T do AAA gaming [Merged Megathread]

[Admiralbison]

*warning long intro rant, if you want to get to my point skip ahead to “the point”

————

Macs can do the ‘work’ but can’t do the ’play’

gaming on computers is a massive past time, so this can’t be ignored.

As Mac fans we have to be honest with ourselves, the Mac platform falls embarrassingly short of this major aspect of the ‘complete computer experience‘

The real world game demonstrations have come in, and for such ”high end“ laptops M1 Pro/Max are at best mediocre when it comes to modern AAA gaming performance standards.

What is more disappointing is too many of Mac fans/Mac gamers are accepting the state of gaming on the Mac platform or even worse excusing it.

”Macs are not designed to play games”

“Devs need to optimize their games better for the Mac”

”if you just lower the resolution down and put it to mid setting you could hit so and so fps”

“I just get a dedicated gaming Windows Pc”

what these are, are a condemnations of Apple itself.

If we look back at Apple’s history in two decades Apple has done Jack squat meangingul to address this sore issue on the Mac platform.

A multi-trillion dollar corporation shouldn’t be defended or excused for this, if Mac fans/Mac Gamers don‘t demand better, Apple will not bother to do better.

************************************** The Point *********************************
Apple has AAA Gaming gurus

IF Apple are “serious” about AAA gaming, than Apple ought to employ AAA gaming people from all over the industry and to be executive and lead heads of a whole dedicated AAA gaming sector of Apple.

THEY are to have complete autonomy in the company…..because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.
THEY are the ones to have a one way influence in the company…..because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming
THEY are the ones who can manage relationships and talk with devs, publishers and most importantly Mac gamers…..because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming

THEY will be more like Seamus Blackely and Ed Fries who have a passion for AA-AAA games and were responsible for the creation of Microsoft’s Xbox….because Microsoft couldn’t really do AAA gaming consoles.

THEY must show the gamer attitude and change the culture within Apple….because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.

THEY will not be like former EA executives like Don Matrick who saw it fit to be anti-gamer and nearly destroyed the Xbox brand with the Xbox One launch…..because E.A. executives can’t do AAA gaming - when they eventually suck the life out and spit out whatever studios they consume.


Apple knows AAA gaming is a big deal, but Apple thinks mobile, cloud and Apple Arcade for children is gaming and obviously wants to sell that hard to Mac users instead.

Apple doesn’t have what it takes to build the Mac platform to be contend in gaming…because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.

 

[LeeW]

Apple doesn’t have what it takes to build the Mac platform to be contend in gaming

The simple and most obvious issue here is that Apple doesn't want the Mac to be a gaming platform. It devalues what these devices stand for, productivity. Neither is there enough Mac users for it to be a platform AAA developers care for.

Apple Silicon is so new in any event that the majority of the 100m+ Mac owners are still on intel, it will be a decade before that substantially swings in the other direction and even then, maybe 10-15% are serious gamers. Not enough for developers to care for. And serious gamers have a PC, simple as that.

 

[EntropyQ3]

Apple Silicon is so new in any event that the majority of the 100m+ Mac owners are still on intel, it will be a decade before that substantially swings in the other direction

Agree with most of what you say, but I think you exaggerate the time scale for the shift from x86. Even though Apple doesn’t report unit numbers, napkin math shows that the M1 Macs have sold in great numbers by Apples standards, and the new Macbooks are positioned to break sales records as well. I would be surprised if AS Macs weren’t the lions share of the MacOS market in less than three years.

 

[leman]

As Mac fans we have to be honest with ourselves, the Mac platform falls embarrassingly short of this major aspect of the ‘complete computer experience‘

Things don't change overnight.

The real world game demonstrations have come in, and for such ”high end“ laptops M1 Pro/Max are at best mediocre when it comes to modern AAA gaming performance standards.

They are much better than the previous models. Sorry, but you have to manage your expectations. Apple cannot release new hardware and also rewrite all the major games for it in two weeks. This is a process that will take years.

“Devs need to optimize their games better for the Mac”

This is the only problem we have in regards to Mac gaming. The games are simply not well optimized. That they run as well as they do is a testament to Apple's hardware and software quality.

The simple and most obvious issue here is that Apple doesn't want the Mac to be a gaming platform. It devalues what these devices stand for, productivity. Neither is there enough Mac users for it to be a platform AAA developers care for.

This is complete nonsense. Apple has created the most efficient gaming hardware and some of the most advanced programming frameworks for games. They feature multiple sessions for developers on how to develop games for Macs, including showcasing their work with studios.

This attitude of "gaming devalues the productivity devices" is exactly what needs to change. Appel Silicon is great for many applications, including content creation, software development, academia, business and gaming. This tribalist thinking of putting one application over the other ones has to stop.

Apple Silicon is so new in any event that the majority of the 100m+ Mac owners are still on intel, it will be a decade before that substantially swings in the other direction and even then, maybe 10-15% are serious gamers. Not enough for developers to care for. And serious gamers have a PC, simple as that.

Ecactly. The situation will improve over the years as Intel Macs leave the user's hands. Right now, development for Mac is tricky, mostly because optimizing and debugging for Intel Macs is a mess. Once devs only need to care about Apple silicon, things will get better.

 

[Admiralbison]

Things don't change overnight.



They are much better than the previous models. Sorry, but you have to manage your expectations. Apple cannot release new hardware and also rewrite all the major games for it in two weeks. This is a process that will take years.




This is the only problem we have in regards to Mac gaming. The games are simply not well optimized. That they run as well as they do is a testament to Apple's hardware and software quality.



This is complete nonsense. Apple has created the most efficient gaming hardware and some of the most advanced programming frameworks for games. They feature multiple sessions for developers on how to develop games for Macs, including showcasing their work with studios.

This attitude of "gaming devalues the productivity devices" is exactly what needs to change. Appel Silicon is great for many applications, including content creation, software development, academia, business and gaming. This tribalist thinking of putting one application over the other ones has to stop.



Ecactly. The situation will improve over the years as Intel Macs leave the user's hands. Right now, development for Mac is tricky, mostly because optimizing and debugging for Intel Macs is a mess. Once devs only need to care about Apple silicon, things will get better.

No excuses and defending Apple.

it’s simple. 30 years and 2 $trillion dollar laters Apple still couldn’t make the Mac platform an actual viable gaming platform

repeat after me and make it a mantra.

……because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.


until the culture within the company changes with people who care and understand AAA games in that regard it will continue to be


….because Apple can‘t do AAA gaming.

 

[leman]

Ok, and here I was assuming that this is going to be a constructive, rationally motivated discussion. My bad. Carry on then.

 

[LeeW]

I would be surprised if AS Macs weren’t the lions share of the MacOS market in less than three years.

Perhaps although personally I am not convinced. Mac users are well known for keeping what they have until it is no longer meeting their needs. People will upgrade in time but only to their schedule. This is why I believe it will take much longer.

But that aside, makes no difference to gaming and the future of it for Mac.

 

[laptech]

In my opinion, Apple does not want to demean itself by making gaming computers. Those who continue to complain about Apple not making gaming computers need to read and listen to the many interviews given by the companies primary founders Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Their vison was to make a company that could build computers that enhance the lives of it's owners, to learn, to educate, to engineer, to build, to create. Their vison was not to build computers that would have it's owners sit on their backside all day playing computer games, to do so would deman and devalue what a computer is.

A good way of looking at it is when people get involved in war of words and you always find someone who will say 'do not let them bring you down to their level'. This is how I see Apple and it's approach to computer gaming, Apple does not want to bring itself down to the level of computers for computer gaming because it knows that it's computers are capable of so so much more.

Computer gaming is a very profitable market and I do not think Apple is immune to that knowledge, it is just something they are not interested in getting involved in, in my opinion.

 

[TrueBlou]

Ah, this old chestnut

It’s a tricky situation, Macs have never tried to really compete in the AAA gaming market, probably because most of the data Apple has on how Macs are used, show there’s not such a big demand for it. We tend to be the creative types, or just average end users who want a solid, reliable computer.

But it’s a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Without the hardware and audience, developers are less likely to devote resources to creating Mac games. Without the games and audience, Apple have been traditionally less likely to pursue it.

As it is now, despite the AAA gaming market being at the largest market capital it has ever been. Apple still makes more profit from iOS gaming, than, just for instance Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo combined.

But, that said, I don’t think it’s a market Apple are prepared to completely ignore going forward. But these things take time.

The new M1 Pro and M1 Max, while far from competing with the best Nvidia and AMD have to offer, are significantly better than the Mac has typically used. That can only be a good sign moving forward.

I’ve never much cared about gaming too much on my Mac - for obvious reasons. I get that fix elsewhere.

But out of curiosity, because I’m playing with my new toy, I decided to fire up Parallels last night and see how much of a difference the M1 Pro has made, over the M1 systems I got last year - I was quite surprised by the results.

I didn’t have a lot of time, and I’ll be investigating more today. But I did manage to play a little bit of Control. Which may be getting on for a couple of years old, but it can still be a demanding game.

At 1080p on high settings, the game was completely playable, the M1 and my previous Intel Macs really struggled with it.

But the most impressive aspect for me isn’t that it was playable. It’s that it was playable on a comparatively low wattage ARM computer, which was running a virtualised Windows ARM system which in turn was emulating the X64 game. And that’s not even the M1 Max.

That can only be a good sign. Had that been a native Apple Silicon optimised version of the game, the performance would undoubtedly be even better.

So Apple are beginning to lay the groundwork. The Apple Silicon systems are only going to get more powerful as the years roll merrily on. There will be little excuse - beyond the traditional smaller Mac gaming market, to not make Mac games.

The market may be small now, but without the games, it will never grow. And y’know, if you build it, they will come

 

[ry-guy]

But have macs ever been a “gaming” platform? Seems more like a don’t want to rather than a can’t. But this is like asking the question, “why doesn’t my gaming pc have Logic Pro on it? Don’t PCs care about musicians? I guess they can’t do it.”

GPU is used for more things than just gaming.
But the real question is why don’t developers like Bethesda care about bringing their games to the mac? Because they choose not to, and don’t care. Maybe there is more money to be made in the PC world. IDK

 

[LeeW]

Even if Macs become capable gaming machines with all the popular AAA titles available, gamers are not going to rush out and buy a Mac. It will always be too costly and lack the ability to upgrade. Gamers will game on PC or console, existing mac users will just game more.

 

[leman]

In my opinion, Apple does not want to demean itself by making gaming computers. Those who continue to complain about Apple not making gaming computers need to read and listen to the many interviews given by the companies primary founders Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Their vison was to make a company that could build computers that enhance the lives of it's owners, to learn, to educate, to engineer, to build, to create. Their vison was not to build computers that would have it's owners sit on their backside all day playing computer games, to do so would deman and devalue what a computer is.

Right, because sitting all day on your backside editing brain-jellyfying Youtube videos or ads is "oh so creative". Gaming is creative self-exploration, interactive story telling and intellectual discovery. Sure, the majority of games are marketing-driven soulless, brain-dead crap. Same can be said of TV, movies, music or the video industry. In the end, you choose what you send your time on.

Computer gaming is a very profitable market and I do not think Apple is immune to that knowledge, it is just something they are not interested in getting involved in, in my opinion.

Apple already owls almost one third of video gaming market by revenue... and these are exactly the brain-dead games you are complaining about. Your stance on this is very naive.

 

[cardfan]

In my opinion, Apple does not want to demean itself by making gaming computers. Those who continue to complain about Apple not making gaming computers need to read and listen to the many interviews given by the companies primary founders Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Their vison was to make a company that could build computers that enhance the lives of it's owners, to learn, to educate, to engineer, to build, to create. Their vison was not to build computers that would have it's owners sit on their backside all day playing computer games, to do so would deman and devalue what a computer is.

A good way of looking at it is when people get involved in war of words and you always find someone who will say 'do not let them bring you down to their level'. This is how I see Apple and it's approach to computer gaming, Apple does not want to bring itself down to the level of computers for computer gaming because it knows that it's computers are capable of so so much more.

Computer gaming is a very profitable market and I do not think Apple is immune to that knowledge, it is just something they are not interested in getting involved in, in my opinion.

Umm. That’s just BS. Explain iOS. What makes the bulk of App Store revenue? And in some ways it’s much worse addictive gaming aimed at kids. In app pop ups. Ads. Pushing these addicted folks to constantly buy another sack of gems for 99 dollars.

Are you really trying to say apple looks down their nose on gaming when they’re heavily supporting and reliant on borderline scam ad infested games on their primary platform?

The main reasons we don’t see gaming on macs is market share. Poor hardware. And probably apple not seeing it worthwhile. Besides there’s iOS to focus on.

 

[furious]

Apple Silicon is so new in any event that the majority of the 100m+ Mac owners are still on intel

The M1 chip architecture is based on the A series of chipsets in the iPads and iPhones. It’s possible that the games that have been ported to the A series chipsets could be ports to the M series of chipsets.

Just pointing out that the iPhones users could be the trigger for a gaming revolution in the Mac universe.

But you point still stands.

 

[diamond.g]

Apple already owls almost one third of computer gaming market by revenue... and these are exactly the brain-dead games you are complaining about. Your stance on this is very naive.

Wouldn't this bolded phrase be more accurate if you dropped the computer part of the gaming market? Traditionally the mobile gaming market isn't included in the computer gaming market (nor in the console gaming market).

 

[Serban55]

Ok, and here I was assuming that this is going to be a constructive, rationally motivated discussion. My bad. Carry on then.

come on, from the topic title i knew with whom we are dealing with
And lets not talk that he just make another new topic with about the same crying

 

[Serban55]

This topic can be closed or merged with this one.

M1 Pro/Max's GPU performance for gaming is quite poor.

I agree with your points. ROTL on the comments about only old people game on stationary computer. I also think the future of gaming is definitely mobile. I imagine something like the Apple AR/VR goggle paired with iPhones, iPads and Macs, all linked together for an immersive game play...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[leman]

Wouldn't this bolded phrase be more accurate if you dropped the computer part of the gaming market? Traditionally the mobile gaming market isn't included in the computer gaming market (nor in the console gaming market).

Yeah, there is some syntactic ambiguity there. I mean it in general sense, i.e. "computer games" vs. "board games". The "computer" compounds with "gaming", it should be read as "[[computer gaming] market]" Phones and console are also computers.

 

[Sammy in SoCal]

Nobody has mentioned just buying a dedicated machine like a PlayStation to play games. Why would you spend on average $2500 to game on a laptop. Spend $500 or less and get a console

 

[leman]

Nobody has mentioned just buying a dedicated machine like a PlayStation to play games. Why would you spend on average $2500 to game on a laptop. Spend $500 or less and get a console

Why would I buy a console? It doesn't have any games I want to play.

 

[Sammy in SoCal]

Why would I buy a console? It doesn't have any games I want to play.

You’re definitely in the minority

 

[diamond.g]

Yeah, there is some syntactic ambiguity there. I mean it in general sense, i.e. "computer games" vs. "board games". The "computer" compounds with "gaming", it should be read as "[[computer gaming] market]" Phones and console are also computers.

Video Game market then would be more appropriate. Mostly because Apple would probably argue that the iPhone isn't a computer (I would think that MS and Sony would probably argue the same for their consoles).

 

[cardfan]

Nobody has mentioned just buying a dedicated machine like a PlayStation to play games. Why would you spend on average $2500 to game on a laptop. Spend $500 or less and get a console

Apple would have to make a console as well as everything that would entail first if they ever want gaming spread to macs and have any kind of visible presence in gaming. Or at least aaa games. They have to be able to leverage iOS and it’s users.

Until then all this gaming on macs is just fantasy.

 

[diamond.g]

Apple would have to make a console as well as everything that would entail first if they ever want gaming spread to macs and have any kind of visible presence in gaming. Or at least aaa games. They have to be able to leverage iOS and it’s users.

Until then all this gaming on macs is just fantasy.

I don't think that is 100% true. And even if it were that would also require Apple to have 1st party games, or exclusive (times or otherwise) 2nd/3rd party titles, which it doesn't seem like they are willing to do.

 

[cardfan]

I don't think that is 100% true. And even if it were that would also require Apple to have 1st party games, or exclusive (times or otherwise) 2nd/3rd party titles, which it doesn't seem like they are willing to do.

Maybe. But that apple logo on a console should scare the daylights out of the current console leaders.

I view it similar to Nintendo vs sega with Sony looming in the shadows. It’s just a matter of apple putting the pieces it has together if they desire at all to do so.