Apple Climbs To 4th In Notebook Sales

[Fayler]

Okay, I know this is probably beating a dead horse, but I want to put it in myself.

Okay, so basically we're arguing that the Dell Inspirion 1520 is comparable to the Apple MacBook Pro low end model. Lets break it down. The following specs are to get as close to the low end MBP as possible.

Dell Insirion 1520
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T7500 @ 2.2gHz
Genuine Windows ® Vista Home Premium Edition (Upgraded to compete with the standard OS X full version)
High Resolution, glossy widescreen 15.4 inch display @ 1440x900
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 8600M GT
2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 at 667MHz
120GB SATA Hard Drive @ 5400RPM
CD / DVD writer (DVD+/-RW Drive)
Intel Next-Gen Wireless-N Mini-card
Built-in Bluetooth capability (2.0 EDR)
Integrated 2.0M Pixel Webcam
56Whr Lithium Ion Battery (6 cell) (since Apple does not have a battery upgrade option, I'll leave the battery alone).
High Definition Audio 2.0
Final Price: $1763

Now, lets break it down again once again. Only from a spec stand point though.

CPU: Both computers feature a 2.2 ghz dual core 64 bit cpu. Result: Draw

Operating System: Discussed later.

Screen: Both can have the same screen resolution, though if someone wants the Inspirion with 1440x900, they're stuck with a glossy screen. The Dell also does not feature LED back lit screens, which means the Dell screen has a huge disadvantage in two departments. Winner: The MBP by a long shot.

Video Card: Both feature a 8600GT Mobile video card, however, the Dell has more video ram. The MBP's is also likely underclocked (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Winner: Dell.

Ram: Draw

Hard Drive: Draw

Optical Drive: Both are dual layer burners, but if the DVD "help me menu" is correct, the Dell features a 16x burner. I'll give dell the benefit of the doubt and say that it is. Winner: Dell

Wireless Networking and Bluetooth: I'm not expert on this by any means, but they both support N-draft and bluetooth, so I'm calling this one a draw.

Integrated Webcam: Based on megapixles, the Dell wins.

Battery: I can't find any battery life reviews on the Dell Inspirion 1520. I'm going to have to call this one a draw, though I suspect the MBP probably has better battery life.

Winner of tech specs: the Dell. However the advantages that the Dell has are rather minor for the most part, with the exception of the double amount of video memory.

But the Dell does not run OS X, which can be viewed by many as a huge benefit and advantage for various reasons (iLife suite, smoother operations, etc etc) and the MBP also has smaller dimensions than the Dell machine. Of course, these advantages depend on the person, but for side by side comparison, they MUST be taken into account. A disadvantage at this point with the Dell is that it is running windows, and with dell, is loaded with a lot of bloat ware, which will slow down the system.

I would also like to point out that once you add a comparable extended warranty to Apple Care with the Dell, its "price advantage" drops to about $210.

I believe that the MBP outclasses the Dell in the end. I've seen too many Dells, even nice ones, go to hell way to often. I think that the fact that Apple is moving up in the market shows that other people are acknowledging this fact as well.

 

[Zadillo]

Okay, I know this is probably beating a dead horse, but I want to put it in myself.

Okay, so basically we're arguing that the Dell Inspirion 1520 is comparable to the Apple MacBook Pro low end model. Lets break it down. The following specs are to get as close to the low end MBP as possible.

Dell Insirion 1520
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T7500 @ 2.2gHz
Genuine Windows ® Vista Home Premium Edition (Upgraded to compete with the standard OS X full version)
High Resolution, glossy widescreen 15.4 inch display @ 1440x900
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 8600M GT
2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 at 667MHz
120GB SATA Hard Drive @ 5400RPM
CD / DVD writer (DVD+/-RW Drive)
Intel Next-Gen Wireless-N Mini-card
Built-in Bluetooth capability (2.0 EDR)
Integrated 2.0M Pixel Webcam
56Whr Lithium Ion Battery (6 cell) (since Apple does not have a battery upgrade option, I'll leave the battery alone).
High Definition Audio 2.0
Final Price: $1763

Now, lets break it down again once again. Only from a spec stand point though.

CPU: Both computers feature a 2.2 ghz dual core 64 bit cpu. Result: Draw

Operating System: Discussed later.

Screen: Both can have the same screen resolution, though if someone wants the Inspirion with 1440x900, they're stuck with a glossy screen. The Dell also does not feature LED back lit screens, which means the Dell screen has a huge disadvantage in two departments. Winner: The MBP by a long shot.

Video Card: Both feature a 8600GT Mobile video card, however, the Dell has more video ram. The MBP's is also likely underclocked (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Winner: Dell.

Ram: Draw

Hard Drive: Draw

Optical Drive: Both are dual layer burners, but if the DVD "help me menu" is correct, the Dell features a 16x burner. I'll give dell the benefit of the doubt and say that it is. Winner: Dell

Wireless Networking and Bluetooth: I'm not expert on this by any means, but they both support N-draft and bluetooth, so I'm calling this one a draw.

Integrated Webcam: Based on megapixles, the Dell wins.

Battery: I can't find any battery life reviews on the Dell Inspirion 1520. I'm going to have to call this one a draw, though I suspect the MBP probably has better battery life.

Winner of tech specs: the Dell. However the advantages that the Dell has are rather minor for the most part, with the exception of the double amount of video memory.

But the Dell does not run OS X, which can be viewed by many as a huge benefit and advantage for various reasons (iLife suite, smoother operations, etc etc) and the MBP also has smaller dimensions than the Dell machine. Of course, these advantages depend on the person, but for side by side comparison, they MUST be taken into account. A disadvantage at this point with the Dell is that it is running windows, and with dell, is loaded with a lot of bloat ware, which will slow down the system.

I would also like to point out that once you add a comparable extended warranty with the Dell, its "price advantage" drops to about $250.

I believe that the MBP outclasses the Dell in the end. I've seen too many Dells, even nice ones, go to hell way to often. I think that the fact that Apple is moving up in the market shows that other people are acknowledging this fact as well.

Also worth mentioning the dimensions and weight.

MBP: 5.4 pounds
Inspiron 1520: 6.4 pounds

MBP: 1" thick
Inspiron 1520: 1.45-165" thick

 

[Fayler]

That'd go under dimensions, but thank you for pointing it out specifically.

 

[Jim Campbell]

It is fact that Apple was rated the #1 computer maker in the market (better than all PC mfgrs) when it comes to the # of new computers sent back for exchange or repair for problems out of the box (and I think during the first year of use).

It was a few years back -- and I'm afraid I can't find a cite for it -- but there was a survey done with a company called MasterCall (I think) concerning DOA machines in the UK that has stuck in my mind ... MasterCall provide phone tech support to Dixons, Currys, most of the major electrical retailers. It turned out that 25% of all DOA Windows PCs reported to them had nothing wrong with them when received back, they were just so damn hard to get working that people just gave up.

What I think many people on forums like this, people who are most likely a lot more computer savvy than the average Joe User, tend to forget is this: they just want the damn thing to work. If you offer them a box of electronics for £750 that doesn't, or a £1000 for a box of electronics that does and they'll pay the premium.

Cheers

Jim

 

[Zadillo]

That'd go under dimensions, but thank you for pointing it out specifically.

Oops, sorry, missed the part at the end where you mentioned that.

I think it's something we tend to take for granted with the MBP; the thinness and weight really are kind of unparalled given the power offered; besides the Inspiron 1520, the other main competitor with an 8600M GT is the Asus G1S, which is also quite thick and even heavier at 6.8 pounds.

A smaller point also to raise is how much nicer Apple's power adapters are than Dell's and most others. It almost never seems to get mentioned, but when I've owned PC laptops, it's always bugged me how annoying and bulky the power adapters are, including the tangle of cords..... the sleek Apple power adapters with the fold out wings to wrap the cord around, and the retractable prong, are so much better.

Again, I know it seems like a minor thing, but when traveling with a PC laptop the power adapters always bug me.

 

[smiddlehurst]

Backlit keyboard, a shock sensor and LED backlighting? Really, so what? Can't say I need any of that, or anyone else I can think of. I've never been shocked by my computer, the screen is really a premium thing, as is the backlighting which would personally annoy me, I don't need to look at the keyboard to type, if I did, the screen would provide enough light if I was in the dark.

Nice, you managed to chop out the upgraded graphics card from the spec sheet while trying to make your point. As for the rest:

1) Backlit keyboard - incredibly useful at times, especially in situations when you really don't want to have to either turn on a light or turn up the backlight to see what you're typing. Say, for example, when the power to the building fails and I'm trying to eek every last drop of power out of a laptop that I'm using to do an ordered shutdown of our data centre because my predecessor forgot to attach both the computers AND monitor to the ^&^&!!! UPS. Drop the screen brightness to the absolute minimum, keyboard light at minimum and you can easily see what you're doing and work at normal speed.

2) Shock sensor refers to the motion sensor that parks the hard drive heads if you manage to, say, drop your laptop and gives you a better chance of preserving your data (which is, after all, what counts). The sort of shock sensor you are referring to would be more commonly called a fuse.

3) LED Backlighting is a major plus point for a lot of people as you get a brighter, more evenly lit display which requires less power to run, a big advantage in a laptop. Plus it's (slightly) more environmentaly friendly. Oh, and just between you and me - THE MABOOK PRO IS A PREMIUM MACHINE, HENCE THE PREMIUM SCREEN! Yeash.

Apple is not niche, everyone knows who they are, they are mostly famed for iPods, they're the furthest thing from niche. It's all the crazily dedicated Apple fans who masturbate over the look of a computer (and products in general from a company who couldn't give two hoots about them) and want to feel as if they're in some special niche club. There is no such thing as a multi-million/billion dollar company selling millions of product that could be called a niche market.

In the music arena, no Apple is not a niche player. But when it comes to computers they were really struggling even, what, three years ago? Remember when that iPod came out, it only really took off when iTunes for Windows came along. Heck, just have a look at articles from 2004, here's one to get you going:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1745930,00.asp

Compare that view to where Apple is today, just two and a half years later. 4th largest laptop manufacturer? You wouldn't have seen that prediction from many back then.

 

[Earendil]

First of all, I'd just like to say

Are we actively importing trolls now?!
Or are they just ill informed kids that don't know when they're wrong?
Or both?

Let me now pick your post apart. Note how I back up what I say, and am generally not vague, but use details.

Overall? It's not close, surely? It looks nice, but Windows has it covered, it plays games (rather than the old-hat Mac support, Halo 1 anyone?),

So you bring up an old game instead of the dozens of others that are out there? It's no secret that the windows side has more games, and I highly suggest gamers use a Windows machine. But many games have come out since Halo 1. Civ IV, Prey, WoW, C&C, X-Plane, Sims...

it runs thousands of applications on the web (no need to worry if there's a Mac version),

All web applications are universal. Any one of the 3 major browsers can use them, on any system, and many of the minor ones as well. Welcome to the 21st century

has a huge amount of freeware,

18,000 freeware/share apps isn't enough for you?
Note: That was just a search for the letter 'e', I'm sure it missed a few.

a decent amount of home office application packs (like Word, Excel etc), a lot are free

.

I must have missed something here, because I'm pretty sure that all major home office applications for windows, can also run on OSX.

XP is unparalled in my opinion.

Funny, because even Microsoft doesn't agree with you.

Backlit keyboard, a shock sensor and LED backlighting? Really, so what? Can't say I need any of that, or anyone else I can think of.

Because you've been asking around and doing market research? There are a lot of things I don't use daily, lilke 256mb of vram. Doesn't make the feature pointless, or unworthy of someone else buying it.

I've never been shocked by my computer,

Oh that explains it, you don't even know what you're talking about.

the screen is really a premium thing, as is the backlighting which would personally annoy me, I don't need to look at the keyboard to type, if I did, the screen would provide enough light if I was in the dark.

If you're in the dark, you don't want the brightness turned all the way up. The backlit keyboard is (amazing, I know) able to be turned off, or adjusted in intensity. And news flash, The Powerbooks and MBP are premium machines.
Have you even seen a MacBook Pro? I'm starting to doubt it...

Apple is not niche, everyone knows who they are, they are mostly famed for iPods, they're the furthest thing from niche. It's all the crazily dedicated Apple fans who masturbate over the look of a computer (and products in general from a company who couldn't give two hoots about them) and want to feel as if they're in some special niche club. There is no such thing as a multi-million/billion dollar company selling millions of product that could be called a niche market.

Niche:
"1. A place or position suitable or appropriate for a person or thing: to find one's niche in the business world.
2. A distinct segment of a market."

As opposed to Famous:
"1. having a widespread reputation, usually of a favorable nature; renowned; celebrated: a famous writer.

Go Home.
Or if you're younger, I suppose I could say
lawl U poned!

 

[Earendil]

Now as for you two...

Zadillo, well, paint peeling off is a problem on both Macbook and MBP - I have two friends with white MBs, both have peeling/scratchy paint problem.
Well the plastic is painted, obviously in some way. The MBP is silver, that can peel off.

That's funny, because the MBP, just like the PowerBook I'm typing on, are not painted.
Are you positive that's what you're seeing with our own eyes, or is this a game of telephone you're playing among friends that are looking to slander Apple without evidense?

If you read my post you would know that those are NOT scratches, but paint "peeling" spontaneously during regular use/no use....

Yeah, wow, okay, so your computer, that was painted with aluminum paint, is peeling off? May I suggest you lay off the weed? Drugs are bad, you know.

but my guess is that Apple will just blame it on wear and tear.

Trust me dude, if you take it to Apple, and there is paint peeling off it, they will not blame it on wear and tear. They're gonna laugh and tell you to stop painting the damn thing.

I think people just don't want to spend $500 more for the same computer they could get from HP or w/e.

Do you realize you are on a forum that completely and utterly contradicts that statement?!!

Mac OS X is GOOD, but honestly I haven't seen anything super revolutionary. It is a step up in terms of GUI from Windows, but as far as trying to do simple things like word documents it gets complicated with using that whole neo-office.

$50 right now says you've never even SEEN Neo office running on a Mac. Another $50 says you don't know what the %^&* you're talking about.

I think I might be deriving some sort of joy out of completely making these trolls look like idiots. Man, you know, trolls used to be good back in the good old days. They used to actually make good arguments...
But let's not get side tracked. On with the show!

Also .Mac you have to pay for

Wrong

and an email app like Outlook doesn't come with OS X.

Ouch, wrong again.

Those are the 2 main things people use computers for and gaming.

Oh, you actually made a sentance I could agree with... up until the last point. The Internet beats out gaming by a long shot for computer use, and Macs do that just fine. In fact, I'd venture a guess and say that more people use their computer for media related activities (photos, videos, music) than they do for gaming. But I don't think Apple is any good with those types of things, so maybe you have a point.

So unfourtanately it will be a while before we see Apple at the top b/c of that.

Well, I'm gonna give you a gold star for that one. Your reasoning is off, but you are right, it will be a long time before Apple beats Microsoft in OS market share.

This is what I mean. I get people jumping on my back whenever I make any statement criticizing Apple at all.

Go up to your friends, parents, cops, strangers, and make wild blanket lies about them and what they use, and I think you'll find most of us are quite calm in explaining how you are wrong.

Have a nice day everyone

 

[Adamo]

First of all, I'd just like to say

Are we actively importing trolls now?!
Or are they just ill informed kids that don't know when they're wrong?
Or both?

And you're calling other people trolls?

So you bring up an old game instead of the dozens of others that are out there? It's no secret that the windows side has more games, and I highly suggest gamers use a Windows machine. But many games have come out since Halo 1. Civ IV, Prey, WoW, C&C, X-Plane, Sims...

Dozens? Oh em geee, I must tell the PC brigade what they're missing out on! Would that be the latest Command and Conquer 3? No? So yet another outdated and archaic game. The Sims? That's what, the best part of eight years old now? With lacking expansion packs and overpricing. Lovely. I brought up Halo as it is the game that (other than WoW) most people seem to talk about, yet it runs like a dog on anything other than a top Mac.

All web applications are universal. Any one of the 3 major browsers can use them, on any system, and many of the minor ones as well. Welcome to the 21st century

Yeah, you did a good job of understanding my point. I was referring to applications you can download (so .exe files for the majority), with a Windows machine, you don't need to worry about compatibility, it just works.

18,000 freeware/share apps isn't enough for you?
Note: That was just a search for the letter 'e', I'm sure it missed a few.

Compared to the amount for Windows, not really.

I must have missed something here, because I'm pretty sure that all major home office applications for windows, can also run on OSX.

So if I bought Office for PC (say, Office 2007), it'd work? Of course not. Office 2004 on the Mac is horrendous, not to mention already superseeded by a long shot.

Funny, because even Microsoft doesn't agree with you.

Has this undeniable faith and love for Apple clouded your ability to recognise free thinking? Am I not allowed to prefer the faster, more compatible operating system? Vista is full of annoyances, some which irritating me in OSX - UAC is the main irritance of mine, even that alone bowls me over to XP. It's clean, it's quick, and runs everything I throw at it. Why should I care about your petty little link to a Microsoft product page? Again, freedom of thought is allowed.

Because you've been asking around and doing market research? There are a lot of things I don't use daily, lilke 256mb of vram. Doesn't make the feature pointless, or unworthy of someone else buying it.

Yeah, because a backlit keyboard is so comparable to VRAM and other components inside the computer which affect the performance.

Oh that explains it, you don't even know what you're talking about.

Oh noes! Heaven forbid I don't know everything in the world, seems like being an Apple bummer means you're a smartarse too.

If you're in the dark, you don't want the brightness turned all the way up. The backlit keyboard is (amazing, I know) able to be turned off, or adjusted in intensity. And news flash, The Powerbooks and MBP are premium machines.
Have you even seen a MacBook Pro? I'm starting to doubt it...

Amazing for what? I can see the keyboard fine in the dark (not that I use it in such light as it strains my eyes) and rarely look at the keys anyway. Yes, I have seen the Pros, cheers for asking.

Niche:
"1. A place or position suitable or appropriate for a person or thing: to find one's niche in the business world.
2. A distinct segment of a market."

As opposed to Famous:
"1. having a widespread reputation, usually of a favorable nature; renowned; celebrated: a famous writer.

Go Home.
Or if you're younger, I suppose I could say
lawl U poned!

Your way of thinking is very skewed, comparing dictionary references - and you're calling me an ill-informed kid? Jeez.

Comparing two extremes (niche > famous) is pretty childish and quite an oversight - Apple are famous for the iPod, it's a well-known and worldwide brand. Many people use Macs in the workplace, many people own Macs for personal use. Millions of owners is not a niche. They do not cater for one specific market, if they did they wouldn't be as well known as they are right now. Heck, the iPhone! They're catering for the portable music market, the work environment (with the Mac Pros and iMacs), home markets and the huge phone sector. What a small niche that is, eh?

Wrong

Hey! You put something in bold! That must means it's correct. Wait, you're not. You have to pay to use .Mac after the trial period. You're WRONG.

See what I did there? I put it in capitals, that makes it more right than your answer!

I don't think I can put together such a huge amount of superficial and childish thoughts even if concentrate for 3 days. You simply are not worth a reply.

You just replied, you lost. Unlucky.

 

[drumforfun19]

Also worth mentioning the dimensions and weight.

MBP: 5.4 pounds
Inspiron 1520: 6.4 pounds

MBP: 1" thick
Inspiron 1520: 1.45-165" thick

and also that PC's look like crap and MBP's are some sexy machines.
plus I dont' think the dell has any Firewire ports which I like to have.

 

[Adamo]

and also that PC's look like crap and MBP's are some sexy machines.
plus I dont' think the dell has any Firewire ports which I like to have.

Very true, the aesthetic side is lovely, and the lack of Firewire in non-Apple machines is worrying and an annoyance having to add Firewire after spending a lot on a machine if using video editing.

 

[Earendil]

And you're calling other people trolls?

Maybe? Do you have a response, or were you just clarifying?
Because that would have been a great moment to take and maybe put some qualifications on the board, maybe tell me you weren't a kid, tell us about your OSX experience (which by what you've said so far, has shown to be almost nil). Anything to defend what it appears your are based solely on what you've said. I'm quite open to finding out and learning about you a little bit.

Dozens? Oh em geee, I must tell the PC brigade what they're missing out on! Would that be the latest Command and Conquer 3? No? So yet another outdated and archaic game. The Sims? That's what, the best part of eight years old now? With lacking expansion packs and overpricing. Lovely. I brought up Halo as it is the game that (other than WoW) most people seem to talk about, yet it runs like a dog on anything other than a top Mac.

Okay, so as I said if you're a gamer, go buy a PC. If you're NOT a gamer, there's a good chance the dozens of games will do you just fine, if you care to play any at all. That was my point. Your counter paragraph there is... I don't know. In respect to what I was saying, I can't make sense of what you're trying to get across. Perhaps you are just repeating yourself and me?

Yeah, you did a good job of understanding my point. I was referring to applications you can download (so .exe files for the majority),

Well, you said "Web applications", which in todays world refers to Web 2.0 Applications. If you mean Freeware/shareware apps that you can download off the internet and run locally on your machine, than you can see my next paragraph. It's not my fault you used the wrong terms man, don't get all panicky and defensive, just correct your wording.

with a Windows machine, you don't need to worry about compatibility, it just works.

And when does it not work? Oh yes, if you download a .app file. I'm not sure if you're aware, but sites tell you which computer they run on, they even tell you which operating system version they support (i.e. 2000, XP, Vista, OSX). Amazing, i know. If you notice those little things before downloading, you'll find that "everything just works".

Compared to the amount for Windows, not really.

Now you are just being argumentative. That was the most ridicules statement in your entire thread, half because you didn't back it up with anything.
I asked you if 18,000 separate pieces of OSX software was enough for you, and it isn't. Why is it not? Because windows has more. Dude... That is the most hallow and ridicules justification you have put forward in this entire thread. Naming specific software titles that aren't offered among that (sample) 18000 titles. Anything at all except for "It's not enough because windows has more"

So if I bought Office for PC (say, Office 2007), it'd work? Of course not. Office 2004 on the Mac is horrendous, not to mention already superseeded by a long shot.

See, now you are showing your ignorance again. At least try and paraphrase your statements with "I think" and then follow it up with "I think that because of...". Because see all I have to do is point out that when Office 2004 for Mac came out, it was arguably BETTER than the windows counterpart. There were articles all over the web on the matter, and many of them were irate windows users writing them. That's right, the Mac development team at Microsoft created an arguably better product than what was available for Windows.

Now we have the current year. There is finally another Windows version of Office. And guess what, next year there will be another version of Office for Mac. But I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that, off the top of your head, you can't tell me the difference between the Windows and OSX versions of Office, nor can you tell me what is coming out in the 2007/2008 releases of Office that makes it unique. Can you?
You need to have something besides blanket statements that are easily rebutted and proven wrong. If, however, you phrase things as being your own opinion and experience, and don't try and encapsulate the entire globe in your statements, we are more accepting and can understand your opinion.

Has this undeniable faith and love for Apple clouded your ability to recognise free thinking?

Has your hatred blinded you? You are the ones making blnaket statements about a computer you seemingly know little about. I am making opinionated statements, or statements backed up by other users and articles, and facts, and I'm making them about a platform I've spent the last decade with. Some of your thoughts come across as opinion, only because they can be taken no other way. Other times you are making blind and blatantly wrong statements, and now owning up to the fact that you made a mistake.

Am I not allowed to prefer the faster, more compatible operating system? Vista is full of annoyances, some which irritating me in OSX - UAC is the main irritance of mine, even that alone bowls me over to XP. It's clean, it's quick, and runs everything I throw at it. Why should I care about your petty little link to a Microsoft product page? Again, freedom of thought is allowed.

I won't point out the irony of this situation. You come to a Mac forum and try and tell us how our operating system sucks, and that we're idiots for using it. I then make an intelligent stand against your statements about my choice of free thinking. Then the SECOND I bring up Vista vs XP, you get all defensive and throw out the "poor me, free thinking! is that wrong?" card. Please child, please.

Yeah, because a backlit keyboard is so comparable to VRAM and other components inside the computer which affect the performance.

Am I not allowed to prefer the faster, more productive operating system for my needs? many windows machines are full of annoyances, not being able to use my computer in the dark is one of the main irritance of mine, even that alone bowls me over to using an Apple laptop. It's clean, it's quick, and runs everything I throw at it. Why should I care about your petty little statement about video cards? Again, freedom of thought is allowed.

If you don't use a backlit keyboard, fine. It's useless for you. If you use the VRAM, it's worth something to you.
If I don't use the VRAM, it's useless to me. If I use the backlit keyboard to be more productive, it's useful for me.
I'm not sure how you can claim that, between two individuals, one feature is better than another. The only thing they can be compared on is market value. But market value in many occasions, especially personal preference items like computers and software interfaces, is moot.

Oh noes! Heaven forbid I don't know everything in the world, seems like being an Apple bummer means you're a smartarse too.

I would have accepted "Oh darn, I was mistaken. Hey man thanks for the link, now I know something more about computers."
But I suppose if you want to call me a smartares... you know, if that's your thing...

Amazing for what? I can see the keyboard fine in the dark (not that I use it in such light as it strains my eyes) and rarely look at the keys anyway. Yes, I have seen the Pros, cheers for asking.

Wait a minute. You just told someone earlier in this thread that when you use your computer in the dark you turn your screen brightens all the way up if you need to see the keys. And now you say using your laptop (do you have one?) hurts your eyes. If you had a backlit keyboard, you could dim your screen all the way down, see it just fine, and see the keyboard as well. This might be a more useful feature than you think

Your way of thinking is very skewed, comparing dictionary references - and you're calling me an ill-informed kid? Jeez.

I'm quite honestly no trying to be insulting here, but... I don't know what it is you're trying to say here. My thinking is screwed because I use a dictionary to reference word meaning? And how does that statement, which makes no sense to me, have any bearing on how informed or uninformed you are?

Comparing two extremes (niche > famous) is pretty childish and quite an oversight

You are just dishing the compliments today, aren't you?

- Apple are famous for the iPod, it's a well-known and worldwide brand. Many people use Macs in the workplace, many people own Macs for personal use. Millions of owners is not a niche. They do not cater for one specific market, if they did they wouldn't be as well known as they are right now. Heck, the iPhone! They're catering for the portable music market, the work environment (with the Mac Pros and iMacs), home markets and the huge phone sector. What a small niche that is, eh?

Now we step back and take a look at the original use of the word "niche" in this thread:
"Still, let's think about this for a minute, Apple - this niche manufacturer that's been declared dead more times than Dracula - managed to beat out Dell in notebook sales. That's pretty damn impressive no matter what your personal opinion of the company may be."

So what, exactly, are you trying to argue? Because even if Apple isn't a niche manufacture now, the statement was about what they used to be. Please rephrase your argument (and refrain from calling me childish, please).

Hey! You put something in bold! That must means it's correct. Wait, you're not. You have to pay to use .Mac after the trial period. You're WRONG.

My apologize. I thought when you said "You have to pay for .Mac" you were saying that paying for it was mandatory with purchase, which it is not. If you meant that .Mac isn't free, well, yeah, of course. My ISP charges me for FTP space to host my website on. So does Pandela for $60 a year, and SiteGround for $72.
However, .Mac offers many more features than just FTP site hosting. You should check it out. for me personally, I would not take advantage of all the services, so I don't use it. But many do.

And Microsoft doesn't offer any free service like .Mac, so I suppose I'm confused why having to pay for a service/product is viewed as a negative thing? Can you make a case for it being free?

I await your reply