Apple Discusses Push Towards High-End Mac Gaming in New Interview

[Beau10]

Even if it was the best game in the world, how would this make the platform any more viable?

It's a chicken or the egg thing. Mac users who are gamers will have consoles/gaming PCs. The titles that do come to MacOS often come delayed behind the PC release and/or are a suboptimal port. So even if you wanted to account for that stat (ie. a Mac 'purchase'), it's not likely to happen.

A very good exclusive really opens up what the actual market could be if large studios want to target it. You get core gamers + the latent market of those who aren't serious enough gamers to buy dedicated hardware (aside from maybe a Switch) but may buy major releases simply because.

 

[Homy]

1) Closing the library gap through fully embracing a Proton-like solution and pushing hard on native ports however they can.

That’s contradicting. A Proton-like compatibility layer would kill native Mac ports, just as it did to Linux.

 

[d686546s]

That’s contradicting. A Proton-like compatibility layer would kill native Mac ports, just as it did to Linux.

Are you suggesting that without Proton there'd be a flourishing native game market on Linux? No, without it there'd be even fewer games on Linux than MacOS.

 

[Homy]

Are you suggesting that without Proton there'd be a flourishing native game market on Linux? No, without it there'd be even fewer games on Linux than MacOS.

I'm just pointing out the contradiction in your statement. You can't "embrace a Proton-like solution" on Mac and at the same time "push hard on native ports". The moment a Mac Proton is released the devs will stop releasing native ports. That's what happend to Linux native ports.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

To be fair, the GPU hasn't improved that much since the M1 series. By many metrics the Pro's GPU regressed after M2.

Nonsense, you are cherry picking. M3 Max is stronger than M2 Max is stronger than M1 Max. The Base and Pro levels of the chips and of RAM are built that way by Apple to suit configuring lower end computing solutions and are irrelevant to measuring maximum available performance for anything like gaming, Maya, Blender, etc.

 

[d686546s]

I'm just pointing out the contradiction in your statement. You can't "embrace a Proton-like solution" on Mac and at the same time "push hard on native ports". The moment a Mac Proton is released the devs will stop releasing native ports. That's what happend to Linux native ports.

You have to close the gap somehow as devs are, by and large, not releasing native ports now. As a gamer, even where a game is currently available on MacOS, I wouldn't consider buying it there unless as a byproduct of buying it on Steam.

More than hardware gaps, the Mac has no games because there's no players, and it doesn't have players because there's no games.

You might be able to entice people to the platform if you can offer them some genuine benefits, like easier access to iOS users, but in the meantime no one is going to choose to game seriously on the Mac because most games just don't run.

Is a Proton-like solution ideal? No of course not, but sometimes you just have to accept where you are.

 

[1129846]

Imagine if Steve had the foresight to acquire Bungie, once upon a time maker of Mac games, instead of MS...

Sadly I don’t think it would have gone anywhere and bungie would have been a foot note in history instead of well known.

Microsoft did a lot more than just buy bungie. They invested billions in gaming on top of it.

 

[hieromonk]

I don't get the fascination with gaming on the Mac, or AAA games. You pick tools for the job, and for gaming, the Mac isn't it.

I say that as a non-gamer, though. The extent of my gaming is watching my wife play Zelda.

Because people prefer doing everything they enjoyed on their favorite OS they love ?

 

[diamond.g]

Because people prefer doing everything they enjoyed on their favorite OS they love ?

That would imply cloud gaming is a viable solution, yeah?

 

[Realityck]

And who needs Diablo 4 when we’re getting the superior PoE 2 on Mac for free? Just compare the boss fights. Diablo 4 looks so messy with all the distracting scores and words that show up and cover the action making it hard to distinguish the characters and the action.

You do know that PoE was one of the worst examples of a promised Mac port that didn't even offer but a rudimentary graphics recognization and adjustments. It was so bad after seeing what the updates added that I was seeing way too many files it kept adding with each update on a AS Mac. One can plainly see how its been complained about in their forums. They didn't even release the beta and make anyone aware of it looking at their site so a Mac user could play it.

Until I see a legit announcement and link showing Mac client of PoE2 to download/install I don't trust these GGG devs. Sorry but have to be honest.

Bug Reports (Path of Exile 1) - Forum - Path of Exile

Path of Exile is a free online-only action RPG under development by Grinding Gear Games in New Zealand.

www.pathofexile.com

 

[Homy]

You do know that PoE was one of the worst examples of a promised Mac port that didn't even offer but a rudimentary graphics recognization and adjustments. It was so bad after seeing what the updates added that I was seeing way too many files it kept adding with each update on a AS Mac. One can plainly see how its been complained about in their forums. They didn't even release the beta and make anyone aware of it looking at their site so a Mac user could play it.

Until I see a legit announcement and link showing Mac client of PoE2 to download/install I don't trust these GGG devs. Sorry but have to be honest.

Bug Reports (Path of Exile 1) - Forum - Path of Exile

Path of Exile is a free online-only action RPG under development by Grinding Gear Games in New Zealand.

www.pathofexile.com

Yes, I've heard of PoE being buggy, maybe a bit more on Mac but there are a lot of bug reports in general even for PC. The official announcement is on there website. It will have a closed beta with start on June 7, 2024 for release in 2025. The system requirements on Steam for Mac and PC are just copy-and-paste from PoE 1 so it remains to see. The Mac Steam depot just say mac64 but it’s too early to see if it will be a native AS port or not.

 

[Homy]

You have to close the gap somehow as devs are, by and large, not releasing native ports now. As a gamer, even where a game is currently available on MacOS, I wouldn't consider buying it there unless as a byproduct of buying it on Steam.

More than hardware gaps, the Mac has no games because there's no players, and it doesn't have players because there's no games.

You might be able to entice people to the platform if you can offer them some genuine benefits, like easier access to iOS users, but in the meantime no one is going to choose to game seriously on the Mac because most games just don't run.

Is a Proton-like solution ideal? No of course not, but sometimes you just have to accept where you are.

Again I wasn’t discussing ”closing the gap” with a Proton-like solution but your idea of doing that at the same time Apple tries to get devs to make native ports. Those two solutions are each other’s opposite and can’t happen at the same time because a Proton-like solution defeats the purpose of native ports.

As for a compatibility layer it wouldn’t either close any gaps more than Bootcamp did for Intel Macs. Such a solution would basically mean that more Windows games are bought and played by Mac users on their Macs. That wouldn’t even show and have an impact on Steam stats since all Macs would be registered as Windows gamers. The only benefit would be for users who can play more Windows games but again there are already such solutions like Wine, Crossover and Parallells and as we know Proton uses Wine and is made by Codeweavers, makers of Crossover.

People also seem to forget that Valve only have the Steam Deck to consider with the sole purpose of gaming. Apple uses Metal API not only in macOS and on Macs but on iPhones, iPads, VisionPro and AppleTV for everything, both games and pro apps. I have a very hard time to believe they would replace their own dedicated API entirely just so some people could play more Windows games on Mac. A Proton-like compatibility layer on Mac would be a direct competitor to Metal discouraging developers from doing native ports.

It would also only create lots of confusion and extra work to maintain and support two different solutions on Apple devices and OSs. Apple would also lose the selling point of their ”ecosystem” with one game that can work on all devices, like in the case of Capcom. Imagine Capcom having to first port Resident Evil games to iPhone/iPad using Metal and then having to optimize their windows versions for Mac using a Proton-like solution. No way they would do double the work.

Apple is playing the long game as said in the article and this is just the beginning. Unfortunately every time there are such news people think Apple is aiming at making the Mac the new PC master race. They also have unrealistic expectations of every major title to be available on Mac while they talk about 1.5% user base on Steam. The news title here wasn’t used in the original article and is a reason for confusion. Apple is not aiming for ”high-end gaming” and those RTX 4090/4080 gamers. They’ve been aware of their shortcomings in this area and their first goal is just to improve things and create a better reputation. They also want to show the devs there is money in it by drawing them into the ecosystem of iPhone, iPad and Mac as we’ve seen with Capcom and the universal purchase system. Of course that will be profitable for Apple too.

Perhaps Apple is also trying to please the current Mac users and even make it easier for those switchers who are close to buy their first Mac to take the final step. Remember that you don’t buy a Mac for gaming but Mac users want to play games too without having to buy a gaming PC. So for now those groups are the targets and while it remains to see how successful Apple will be it’s something that will take some years to succeed. The effort just started last year with Metal 3 and Capcom. So there’s a long way ahead.

 

[djgamble]

It's never gonna happen, Apple.

You don't support DirectX 12.

You don't even support Vulkan. No, Metal is not the answer.

Why would game devs compile for the Mac? They are better off just compiling for Windows and Linux, which isn't a pain to do.

Agreed mate. The M3's a lot less crap than Apple's historic offerings from a gaming perspective. However it's absolute garbage saying:

- ARM is great for high-end gaming because it delivers a higher speed to energy ratio.

- Integrated graphics are easier to code for and cards are inherently clunky to code for.

- High-end games are fabulous on M3 Macs.

Heck let's talk open-source games and 'regular games' before we talk high-end games (most of which haven't even been ported to bloody Metal - WHY... just WHY would anybody bother optimising stuff for Metal in order to appease less than 1% of their target audience? Yeah nah).

There's various open-source games (and apps with graphics) that I simply can't compile on a Mac because I'd have to port them to Metal. Whereas with OpenGL I could just compile things outta the box. Vulkan? Same. Bloody hell Apple... it's one thing to sell us lolly water as being an enjoyable beverage but another to tell us it's healthier than fresh foods and exercise.

 

[AlexisV]

Too slow Apple. My 2015 iMac with the Radeon 395X ran modern games absolutely fine until recently when ATI deemed the GPU obsolete (the very definition of planned obsolescence - it's simply down to the drivers, not the hardware).
So I'll sell it and buy a 2020 iMac. Zero pennies for Apple.

 

[delsoul]

“Playing the long game” is business jargon for refusing to admit that one is currently unable to compete.

 

[JinxVi]

The system requirements on Steam for Mac and PC are just copy-and-paste from PoE 1 so it remains to see. The Mac Steam depot just say mac64 but it’s too early to see if it will be a native AS port or not.

I don't see why a new game should be compiled for Intel Macs? For good or for bad that era is over once and for all. And with Steam cutting support for 32-bit games, those old Macs aren't even good for retro gaming. And they are too expensive anyway.

 

[Homy]

I don't see why a new game should be compiled for Intel Macs? For good or for bad that era is over once and for all. And with Steam cutting support for 32-bit games, those old Macs aren't even good for retro gaming. And they are too expensive anyway.

Look at Paradox Interactive. Even their latest Mac games Star Trek: Infinite or Victoria 3 aren't native AS ports. They say the don't have a dedicated Mac team so it's either that or laziness. If it wasn't profitable they wouldn't port the games at all especially when 70% of Steam Mac user base now use AS.

 

[diamond.g]

Look at Paradox Interactive. Even their latest Mac games Star Trek: Infinite or Victoria 3 aren't native AS ports. They say the don't have a dedicated Mac team so it's either that or laziness. If it wasn't profitable they wouldn't port the games at all especially when 70% of Steam Mac user base now use AS.

Seems like not having a dedicated MAC team is why they haven’t done Cities Skyline 2 on macOS yet.

 

[Ethosik]

Heavy duty gamers isn’t and cannot be the target market. The target market are those who like to chill a bit with gaming on their Mac.

There is no way, even if they bought EA and Ubisoft (to the tune of a hundred billion or so) that they would have either the breadth or the back catalog of Windows or the consoles. The people who care about that will either choose a Windows box or supplement their Mac with a console. It’s the more average person that is the target - those who need a computer in any circumstance, and who are more likely to pick a Mac if there is a decent (not awesome) catalog of games for the platform.

This mirrors iOS. IPhones are not bought primarily for gaming, but it is still the largest grossing gaming platform in existance.

Yes agreed. There is no chance no matter what GPU Apple has. Unless Apple puts PS/2 ports back in. Heavy duty gamers still use this as USB has input lag.

 

[Ethosik]

Even if it was the best game in the world, how would this make the platform any more viable?

The Mac is too expensive to be bought for just one game. Platform exclusives work on consoles either because they steer purchasing decisions between two basically identical platforms (few exclusives aside, the games available on PlayStation or Xbox are more or less the same) or because the hardware is relatively inexpensive (buying a Switch to play Mario or Zelda doesn't break the bank).

But the Mac cannot compete with the PC or consoles on games library and a good exclusive or two wouldn't change that.

Making the Mac viable as a gaming platform, in my view, can only happen in one of two ways (or a combination thereof):

1) Closing the library gap through fully embracing a Proton-like solution and pushing hard on native ports however they can.

2) A paradigm change in gaming that wipes the slate clean and renders backward compatibility less of an issue. Mobile gaming might be one of those things, with the iPhone becoming everyone's Switch, or VR gaming, but frankly I don't think either is really likely to have such a massive impact in the foreseeable future.

Not only that but PS5, Xbox Series and Switch give 5+ years of life with still current games. I mean we just got done mostly with games releasing on PS4 still. Just because a PS4 can’t do 4K at 60fps doesn’t mean a PS4 “sucks” at gaming (which is what most of these threads turn into about Mac and gaming).

 

[jlc1978]

Not only that but PS5, Xbox Series and Switch give 5+ years of life with still current games. I mean we just got done mostly with games releasing on PS4 still. Just because a PS4 can’t do 4K at 60fps doesn’t mean a PS4 “sucks” at gaming (which is what most of these threads turn into about Mac and gaming).

That's typical of some "gamers." If it isn't the latest and greatest it sucks.

 

[ankitgu]

It's not about high end graphics. It's about the experience. You cannot sit there and tell me that 30 FPS in 2023 with dips into the 20s is an enjoyable experience when you have both subpar framerate and graphics. Zelda TOTK is an example of this.

I don't mind having graphics on low if the framerate is high. Multiplayer competitive games are an example of this: graphics are not the focus, you want consistently high framerate and the lowest input lag you can get.

The advantage for Nintendo is that:

a) they have too many fanboys that will excuse the company being behind the competition because of their first-party titles.

and

b) a significant part of their customers don't know better

It's mostly b) but a) is extremely vocal online, so Nintendo gets away with a lot of stuff.

Some of us wouldn't care. The Nintendo Wii is still fun because it's so different and caters to a casual gamers. The quality of graphics doesn't matter, but rather the gameplay itself.

 

[JinxVi]

Some of us wouldn't care. The Nintendo Wii is still fun because it's so different and caters to a casual gamers. The quality of graphics doesn't matter, but rather the gameplay itself.

You'll be most surprised to learn that gameplay and character animation are practically the same. Graphics are not just some eye candy sprayed on top of the underlying gameplay. The ways in which you can manipulate the animations dictates which kind of game mechanics you can implement into your game.

Better graphics make better games. We went from the most sophisticated jump & run sidescrollers to the first and worst 3D games ever (SNES ➞ N64). For decades Nintendo 3D animations were so poor that you couldn't built games which required any skilfulness from the player.

No wonder people still play Tetris as it clearly requires skill. For 3D games to require skill the graphics need to be way more sophisticated than what Nintendo ever achieved. Nintendo Wii games aren't casual, they are baby games.

 

[jlc1978]

No wonder people still play Tetris as it clearly requires skill.

Exactly. Tretris, and many arcade classics, show that it is game play that matters; not graphics. Graphics are just eye candy in many cases, and cannot overcome uninteresting game play.

 

[JinxVi]

Graphics are just eye candy in many cases, and cannot overcome uninteresting game play.

Graphics enable the gameplay. Tetris works because its graphics work. The falling blocks you've got to clear fit exactly into the graphical capabilities of the first Gameboy.

Compare the gameplay of Path of Exile 2 (2024) with Diablo 1 (1997). It's not just the same type of game with better graphics. The graphics in Diablo didn't allow to change the direction of an animation or for a large monster to push smaller monsters away or to dodge roll between the legs of an area boss. The gameplay is determined by what was graphically possible to be displayed on screen.

What's the appropriate Steve Jobs quote: "Design is not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."