Apple Files Official Motion to Vacate Court Order, Says FBI Seeks 'Dangerous Power'

[dk001]

OR we as a society accept that we will not give up certain liberties and designs just to make law enforcement easier. We can choose a path that says encryption will be permitted even given the consequences.

Just like guns means some people will get shot, freedom of speech means people will say mean things, etc etc. It would be great for politicians if you didn't have a right to speak negatively about them wouldn't it? Well it would be nice for law enforcement if you didn't have unbreakable encryption.

It is OK to say "NO, law enforcement, you will not have this power and we understand you will not have thiis option when intel is encrypted. Now go find another way."

Why does everyone need to find a compromise? Try this. . ."NO!" Go ahead, say it.

Don't disagree with you however I am looking at thinking outside the box. Get away from the "it's this or that" thinking and look for a solution that benefits all parties. Something different and not being considered. I personally have no clue what this could be. We as a society need a solution. Maybe it is the "just say no". Maybe it's not. Maybe, and hopefully, it is something different.
[doublepost=1456535735][/doublepost]

...

So it is a bit rich and incredibly hypocritical for these electronics giants to 'pretend' to be jumping on the privacy of it's users bandwagon on one hand, whilst they are making every penny they can get of all your personal data with the other hand. It's almost like they are protecting their business assets with this.

I guess that's capitalism for you?

If you look at the evolution of iOS and Android, you will see there has been a slow but continued expansion into the encryption / protection arena. User requests and the growth of black hat hacking has driven this. Encryption has been on the enterprise and government side for years and now has spilled over into the consumer world.
This confrontation has been coming for all nations. As two of the biggest "markets", it will not surprise me to see the US and China drive future direction.
I wouldn't call it pretend. Encryption will drive changes into the electronic giants financial design model. Yes, I am an iOS and Android user. Still, the majority of my data, communications, devices, and clouds are encrypted. The next phase in evolution is going to be very eye opening I suspect.
[doublepost=1456536271][/doublepost]

I am with Apple.

The federal government could have prevented THIS INCIDENT of terrorism by doing the most basic of work and preventing these people from entering the country. It's doubtful that this one company phone would have anything actionable on it anyway. I say this will be the true measure of Apple and its executive team. Are they willing to go to jail to protect our rights?

I hope so, because that would be the right and moral thing for them to do. I hope it never comes to that, but this will be the measure of the men (and women) of Apple.

We should not forget that there is a significant corporate item in this too. That fact that a government agency, under a court writ, can go to a company and tell them "you will build this for us because we have a court issued document that says you must" is mind numbingly scary. The scope of what could be is so open ended as just about anything could be demanded.

• Today: create a new iOS version that allows us to access the device via bypassing security
• Tomorrow: create a new iOS version that allows to access the device via bypassing security remotely
• Tomorrow +1: create a new iOS version that allows to access the device via bypassing security remotely and the user is unaware of this

Where does this end? I am sure many can think of even more outrageous requests.
This has far greater implications than "terrorism suspects".

 

[techwhiz]

You mean if my family or town is at risk from actionable intelligence? I would say crack into it, as would anyone on this board would as well.

Please don't speak for me. I do not agree.

 

[Tech198]

All i know it seems Apple is smarter than the FBI ... They think several moves ahead

 

[Analog Kid]

You mean if my family or town is at risk from actionable intelligence? I would say crack into it, as would anyone on this board would as well.

Most likely. Many people would be willing to unilaterally subvert most of the fundamental beliefs held by the other 300 million people in their society if it meant saving their one family.

That's why we need laws and limits. It doesn't matter what your personal situation is, we as a society believe this is the proper course of action. No exceptions.

So what it comes down to is: are we going to legislate out of fear of the ticking time bomb scenario that rarely if ever happens and affects 10's of people when it does, or are we going to legislate toward the security of millions?

 

[You are the One]

You mean if my family or town is at risk from actionable intelligence? I would say crack into it, as would anyone on this board would as well.

You and many more need to STOP and wake up. Fear has been programmed into your mind to the extent you no longer operate as a rational being.

STOP, relax, and listen to some blues.

 

[Tech198]

the law is the law, but we also have a right to privacy...

However if this was any a phone "other" than an iPhone, we'd have no problem getting the info would we ? but This is "Apple" ...

A company that does the encryption to all by default... we all have a different view... but if its done by the user instead.... it's a different kettle of fish...

Explain this?

 

[tentales]

I think it's not really technical aspects.

All you have to explain to people is ...

And my point was, that the media IS NOT doing a good enough job explaining it to people, because the difference between what's required to comply with the court order and what non-technical people THINK it is, is huge. This gap in understanding is what allows the opponents to blame Apple for siding with the terrorists.
[doublepost=1456576782][/doublepost]

...

also criminals rely on the security of the iPhone. There will be lots of incriminating information on iPhones everywhere that the FBI cannot access.

... you can watch an interview with Michael Hayden, former chief of NSA, who will explain to you why he had rather that the good guys be safe than the bad guys being unsafe.

Michael Hayden was on Bill Maher last night, mostly siding with Apple.

A different set of criminals would love to get their hands on the "backdoor version" of iOS if ever created.
You think identity theft is bad now ? What with Apple Pay and other financial info on all our iPhones.

Michael Hayden was also Director of the CIA and if he thinks it's better for the good guys to be safe, then I think the FBI should rethink their strategy here.

 

[JGRE]

If Apple is forced what, makes you think a third party won't either? This is the main point, if you create a precedent then it's all gone!

The FBI or US Justice Department have no control over what happening abroad, so if a programmer, on say the Cayman Islands (using the pirate bay for distribution), would create a encryption to fix this back-door, nobody will be able to prevent this.
[doublepost=1456609836][/doublepost]

And my point was, that the media IS NOT doing a good enough job explaining it to people,

The media doesn't give a f*ck about explanations, they just care about 'sensation' (the juicier the better) because this means viewers and money. If they have to nail Apple to the crucifix for this, they will do so, don't expect the truth from them.

 

[Tech198]

Media needs to fill in the gaps..

 

[Flight Plan]

You and many more need to STOP and wake up. Fear has been programmed into your mind to the extent you no longer operate as a rational being.

I don't know who's side you're really on in this argument. But I'm calling you out for naysaying the danger of this poisonous ideology that has as one of its central tenets a command to kill people who dont agree or convert.

And I won't reprint your graphic either, but I will say that the odds of being killed by terrorism may be very low as you say, but they rise exponentially when you are one of those being targeted today, whether it be at Ground Zero, Paris, Cologne, or San Bernardino.

But I repeat myself because this is critically important: we don't need to give up our rights out of fear (maybe this is what you were trying to say?). We just need to take the first step by not letting people with ill will into our country. We should go back to letting in only those who are not diseased and who have a skill that they can offer for the betterment and enrichment of America. That used to be the way. It should be again. And maybe we should also require people coming in to prove that they are not affilliated with a toxic ideology.

STOP, relax, and listen to some blues.

On this, you and I are in agreement!

 

[gnasher729]

We just need to take the first step by not letting people with ill will into our country. We should go back to letting in only those who are not diseased and who have a skill that they can offer for the betterment and enrichment of America.

There's an inscription on a plaque on the Statue of Liberty: "Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free".

 

[sir1963nz]

You mean if my family or town is at risk from actionable intelligence? I would say crack into it, as would anyone on this board would as well.

Don't worry, you are far more likely to be killed by these means than by terrorists
Shot by someone you know and trust
Killed in the motor vehicle accident
Killed by having your TV fall on you
Killed by a cow is more likely than by terrorism
Choking kills 2500 Americans each year
Being struck by lightening
Being shot by law enforcement

STOP being frighten by your own government, scared people make stupid decisions.
[doublepost=1456622007][/doublepost]

A court order can be made to access the data, it is the mechanism put in place to protect that data, it is Apple's fault if it wants to claim it lacks the key to access the data the court order is requesting. Whilst advertising the fact they are making more secure devices.... yes it is certainly a marketing opportunity the have exploited. Along with wanting to protect user privacy.



I read on a thread on one of the UK news articles covering this that it is covered under this in the UK:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/part/III

And the UK government is forceful on digital information being released:

http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2434...-facebook-user-accounts-in-first-half-of-2015

And just to add to this whole protection of your digital privacy argument...

It is interesting, Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin etc believes they have a right to 'own' your data and photographs ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...itions-why-you-dont-own-your-online-life.html ) and make money from that data, yet they do not feel they should allow security services and government access to that information. It's hypocrisy at its best, protect your business at the cost of privacy, then attempt to look good in public by protecting that data and privacy.

It's all about marketing and targeted advertising, in fact the mobile games industry when they started with freemium games quickly clicked on to just how much data they were collecting on their users and then started selling it, it's the main drive behind the 'freemium' games business model and they make millions of it, heres a top game developer telling you how it is, they basically OWN YOU:

http://toucharcade.com/2015/09/16/we-own-you-confessions-of-a-free-to-play-producer/

From what I've read Apple would use your data for targeted iAds but I believe they have got rid of that now? It seems to handle your data better though.

So it is a bit rich and incredibly hypocritical for these electronics giants to 'pretend' to be jumping on the privacy of it's users bandwagon on one hand, whilst they are making every penny they can get of all your personal data with the other hand. It's almost like they are protecting their business assets with this.

I guess that's capitalism for you?

Google makes money by selling your info to advertisers.
Apple makes money by selling you hardware.

 

[apolloa]

Google makes money by selling your info to advertisers.
Apple makes money by selling you hardware.

So does Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, freemium games, etc etc etc as I mentioned? Not sure what your point is as if it's to somehow discredit Google then it failed because they do what practically everyone else does, and I stated Apple handles your data better but they did use your information to target iAds at you so they were the same as everyone else before, and lets not forget that Apple gets 30% from every in app purchase, whilst the makers of those freemium apps are data mining the hell out of you.

 

[dk001]

well this gives the terrorist the upper hand and ties the hands of people who are actually trying to prevent future attacks in this country and others. I guess its ok to have all the privacy and not worry about future attacks. Its ok eventually Apple is going to have to give up because government has ways of getting what they want. sad but true.

So, how does his give them (the terrorist) the upper hand? I'm curious...
[doublepost=1456624653][/doublepost]

What if this isn't possible and you were forced to choose one or the other?

Because as technology stands now, that's the situation.

That may be a bit short sighted.
One or the other? There may be more options especially from a global perspective. There are some pretty smart people out there.

 

[You are the One]

I don't know who's side you're really on in this argument. But I'm calling you out for naysaying the danger of this poisonous ideology that has as one of its central tenets a command to kill people who dont agree or convert.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.

In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.

Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.

Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific technological elite.

It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system -- ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.

To understand the real threat to your society and country you have to look elsewhere, it's not the Talibans neither Daesh/ISIL (both of which are created and run by the CIA since long long time)

The people planning and executing attacks on civilians in the western society have been the same since the end of WW2. These extreme acts of terrorism are used to drive the ignorant (and very very afraid) sheep in the direction their psychopathic leaders want them to go.

Your country is occupied and run by political extremists holding dual citizenship, masquerading as Americans but actually with no other interest than your complete and total destruction. Basically it's a mob of organised crime.

They are running your everything, your Fed, your CNN, your military industrial complex, your Congress, your White House, your local academical institution, your intelligence services even you dear Facebook.

If you are looking for an ideology that is poisoning your society, look no further. Don't be afraid of the "muslim" patsies, be afraid of the people using them against you.

Put the light on them, expose them, charge them for their treasonous crimes and hang them.

That's how you get rid of terrorism.

In the mean time, have a look at this. If you want to cry, I fully understand you. USA has become an intellectual third world country.

 

[Krandor]

In the mean time, have a look at this. If you want to cry, I fully understand you. USA has become an intellectual third world country.

I always take those kind of videos with a grain of salt because you dint know how many people they interviewed to get the 3 or 4 that made the video.

 

[diegogaja]

Business telling government to go stuff it on matters of security. But watch out if a bakery fails to make a gay cake; there's fire and brimstone upon ye!!

of which the two have nothing to do with each other....
[doublepost=1456692898][/doublepost]

This is why I can't get down with either political party. The bakery shouldn't be forced to bake a gay wedding cake (but the rest of us should feel free to shame and boycott that business into bankruptcy), and Apple shouldn't be forced to create a new product at the government's command.

If Apple loses here, you could see the FBI conscripting more companies and even non-criminals to fight crime. Imagine if the FBI gets a court order forcing you to wear a wire because you happen to work with or know a suspect. We've already done away with forced conscription in the armed services and we should not accept forced conscription in law enforcement. The detectives should focus on doing their job, not enslaving others to do it for them.

I agree. I think people should be free to not serve black people either, there are other restaurants. Or let Mexicans go to the same schools our kids go, there are other schools. And if something goes down with North Korea, we should put all ethnic Koreans in 'safety camps' for their and our protection. Also, women really shouldn't be voting, I mean, what's the point, amirite?!?

If you haven't figured out yet...this is sarcasm.

America, thankfully, got rid of a persons right to discriminate a while ago...while you are free to believe and say whatever you want, the actions you take against others based on those beliefs matter, especially if it's a licensed business open to the public. Don't take a job that runs counter to your personal beliefs if you can't do it for everyone...as a licensed public business.

 

[You are the One]

I always take those kind of videos with a grain of salt because you dint know how many people they interviewed to get the 3 or 4 that made the video.

Agreed, everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Even so, it indicates that young people of today, not only in the US, are not exactly encouraged to follow and understand current events and especially not so from a perspective of critical thinking.

 

[hiddenmarkov]

So, how does his give them (the terrorist) the upper hand? I'm curious...
[doublepost=1456624653][/doublepost]

That may be a bit short sighted.
One or the other? There may be more options especially from a global perspective. There are some pretty smart people out there.

These people don't know some terrorists are trained in intel/counter intel. The government doesn't share this. Especially for some when its the US who taught them. The US never defines what advisors actually do when we send them. Training this stuff part of that. It may be only the basics...some of these people take the basics and expand. Too many associate the idiots who strap bombs on with being representative of what makes up these crews. Behind the bomber or the gunmen...are leaders/planners who thinks at higher levels.

They also forget they use burn phones. Like most smart people doing bad things do. Doing bad things...having your information in detail at the Verizon office kind of crimps the style of staying off the radar.


For high end stuff potentially there is sat com. Already spending money on fake papers (id's and stuff like that) and such...what's a few more dollars for a more permanent telecommunication system that used and setup right gives quite a bit of security. This already in place for many.

Some of their training sites....aren't in full bar range of a cell tower. Isolation...they tend to like it for some reason. You can't exactly go to a cell provider and say hate to be a burden but we need a cell tower addition to a region to make some calls from our secret evil base so stand one up please. And don't tell anyone what you see or hear out there. Okay, thanks for the great service, bye now.


Last 2 technologies brought up because ,well, they are a threat as well really. But oddly enough we don't see the DoJ or anyone else on legal crusades to hinder them.

 

[dk001]

These people don't know some terrorists are trained in intel/counter intel. The government doesn't share this. Especially for some when its the US who taught them. The US never defines what advisors actually do when we send them. Training this stuff part of that. It may be only the basics...some of these people take the basics and expand. Too many associate the idiots who strap bombs on with being representative of what makes up these crews. Behind the bomber or the gunmen...are leaders/planners who thinks at higher levels.

They also forget they use burn phones. Like most smart people doing bad things do. Doing bad things...having your information in detail at the Verizon office kind of crimps the style of staying off the radar.
...
Last 2 technologies brought up because ,well, they are a threat as well really. But oddly enough we don't see the DoJ or anyone else on legal crusades to hinder them.

I hear you and agree in part with most of it. Yours I see for a small part of it in comparison to the whole "terrorist" theatre. Yours is in response to an apparatus in which terror is one card.
However, it doesn't help answer the response @bobenhaus originally gave in answer to @techwiz.
Thanks though

 

[steve333]

Other than a couple of draft "WTH is that" items, I am not aware of anything to come from that august group in quite some time. Now getting all together to discuss... that's a potential path forward.
[doublepost=1456451919][/doublepost]

Why?
If my external hard drive attached to my MS Surface is encrypted is MS or the hard drive maker responsible for being able to get into my hard drive?
No.
So why should Apple?

Is Apple an American company? Should they care that the FBI needs to get information that helps protect this country? If there is a way to get into the phone Apple should do it.

 

[bradl]

Is Apple an American company? Should they care that the FBI needs to get information that helps protect this country? If there is a way to get into the phone Apple should do it.

Last I read, Apple was based in Ireland.

BL.

 

[hiddenmarkov]

Is Apple an American company? Should they care that the FBI needs to get information that helps protect this country? If there is a way to get into the phone Apple should do it.

They designed this to not be able to get into it......Not all security schemes are meant to have another way in. Think the issue here is too many have adopted and like the convenient oh I forgot my password. Please reset it Mr/Ms tech support person. Some schemes don't roll like that. They are one way/one time deals. I use a software on my MBP that does this. No password...no data unlock. even for me. No matter how much I write them the company cannot reset password. They aren't refusing to do this. they simple can't do it. Same with apple.

People say well others do it. When you weaken securlty for 1 planned hole....you don't know who else can use that hole. And rare is the chance its just this one hole. It usually makes many more possible to discover. Security algorithms go under strict and lengthy testing and verification. Once passed, that pass is only for that version of it. change code, underlying algorithm.....all bets are off. Is it secure? We don't know.

Example:

Here is how M$' implementation of Kerberos became unsecure. Kerberos in its pure original form is pretty damn good security. It took on the aspect as it were of its namesake Cerberos,the many headed mythical animal. and has very random heads at that.

When M$ implemented it, said its not M$-ey enough and added one small field specific to M$....this is what attackers keyed on. This one field gave the algorithm just a little bit of consistency it was not designed to have. It was this consistency that was attacked. Kerbcrack among others said hi. In very little time after initial release.

 

[dk001]

Is Apple an American company? Should they care that the FBI needs to get information that helps protect this country? If there is a way to get into the phone Apple should do it.

While I may agree that there "could be" information on that device, the method the FBI is attempting to use would allow legal precedent that gives the FBI the authority to demand the writ recipient "build whatever the FBI demands" as long as it is in the form of a legal warrant or writ. That is a serious erosion of our civil liberties.
This method the FBI is attempting is just wrong on so many levels.

 

[You are the One]

Some related stuff from the Intercept:

Apple Wins Major Court Victory Against FBI in a Case Similar to San Bernardino

Summoned to Capitol Hill, Apple Comes Armed With Questions for Congress

Eight Memorable Passages From Apple’s Fiery Response to the FBI