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CalBoy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2007
7,849
37
Well put. But doesn't Apple want to be a part of EVERYONE'S digital lifestyle? Not just the people who own nice mansions and expensive cars?

I have neither, and I doubt most Mac users do. We all value different things when it comes to products. Some want good computers and others might want a German sedan.

If Apple wants more people into the OS X fold, they will need an Mini replacement... or at least keep them...

The Mini does need to be kept. It's a good entry level computer that does serve a good purpose.
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
#5 With regards to point 1 and 4, they are less likely to upgrade their OS to the latest version, which means that the cool new features in the OS take longer to propagate, it's going to take 5 years for developers to release Vista only software using it's cool features, however in 2 years (maybe less for open-source/freeware) you will see Leopard only software.
;).

I might want to correct that and say we will start seeing the Vista only software by April 2009 when mainstream support for XP is dropped. It was around the time mainstream support for windows 2000 was drop we start seeing XP only software and it was the same thing when it happen to ME, and 98. So based on that pattern it will be no different with XP.
Just figure I would correct that little error and it might happen even sooner given XP age. XP is a very old OS and is really showing it age right now.
 

walangij

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2007
396
0
MI
Apple are not going to enter the $500 PC market for several reasons.

#1 Cheap PC users don't buy any software (except for Office, possibly), so the only money to be made is up front, so software developers don't get extra sales.

#2 The margins on $500 PC's are very low as the market is extremely competitive, certainly not close to the 30% margins Apple is used to.

#3 The quality of $500 PC's is very low as they have to use lower end hardware, either Apple would look like a rip-off at the price point or they'd have to use the same hardware which is extremely unreliable, many cheap computers break after about 2 years or so.

#4 Many buyers of cheap computers don't understand technology as they aren't willing to spend more, so they are more likely to get viruses/spyware, yes you are shutting out poor computer geeks, but they'd probably build their own PC anyway as the specs are better.

#5 With regards to point 1 and 4, they are less likely to upgrade their OS to the latest version, which means that the cool new features in the OS take longer to propagate, it's going to take 5 years for developers to release Vista only software using it's cool features, however in 2 years (maybe less for open-source/freeware) you will see Leopard only software.

#6 you can get a $500 Mac, just buy a second hand one on eBay, it'll probably last longer than a $500 new PC anyhow, as it's been made of better quality materials.*

* Though a high quality (business) PC laptop would probably last even longer ;).

Great points and analysis in a simple form.
1. is spot on.
2. is correct, in all the tech industry, hardware sales have very very small profit margins on most items, but Apple has the capability to have their very nice margins in comparison.
3. I think while "low" in quality, the cheapest intel processors/ram/hard drives would do fine for a mac mini user. Sure the 500 dollar range for a low end mini would be nothing really, but BTO makes it satisfactory still. As we have all seen, competition drives down prices and like you have said the competition in the sub-standard computing arena is very very intense w/ companies even selling at a loss to buy market share.
4. Couldn't this be a selling point for a cheap mac and OSX? But then again, only if Apple wants to sell for less profit which likely they won't.
5. nice
6. a $500 mac on ebay is a good suggestion, but then again most of these buyers will want something NEW and not "old and used", even buying a new POS is better than a used mac for some :confused:
 

M3G4

macrumors regular
May 4, 2007
100
0
Kent, UK
To be fair, since the advent of OS X and iLife, Mac's have increased in their value for money. Since when has ANYTHING bundled with windows offered so much flexibility, compatibility and power, straight out of the box, that was included with the price of the OS/price of the computer?

People seem to overlook that iLife, whilst it may seem quite lacking when pitted against apple's higher-end software, is still an incredibly powerful set of tools. Windows never has, and probably never will, have anything comparable to Garageband or iPhoto. To get software that is intertwined and as powerful as what you get FREE with an apple mac on a PC would cost way into the $/£100's.

iLife was one of the things on the mac that left me in awe. I've never seen such awesome application integration - the ability to carry projects seamlessly between applications without a crash, or a problem anywhere along the way was something I could only dream of using my £750 dell workstation. Yes, the dell was nice and powerful, and given the right software could really kick some ass... but to be fair, for that ass to be kicked, a lot of notes needed to be chucked toward a till!

I think Apple has the right to be snobby when it's computers not only have the guarantee of quality hardware, but also an operating system that is easy to use, and an incredible productivity suite, that (sorry to be a cliché) "just works" as soon as you switch it on.
 

gkarris

macrumors G3
Original poster
Dec 31, 2004
8,301
1,061
"No escape from Reality...”
I think Apple has the right to be snobby when it's computers not only have the guarantee of quality hardware, but also an operating system that is easy to use, and an incredible productivity suite, that (sorry to be a cliché) "just works" as soon as you switch it on.

Funny, guy at church used his slightly older computer to edit a video and burn a DVD and it took him 2 very long evenings.

He then went over to his new audio editing machine to see if it was faster and, low and behold, none of the programs would run. He spent about $2,000 on this high-end audio PC...
 

-::ubermann::-

macrumors regular
Sep 9, 2006
213
0
When was the last time you spent $500 for a primary computer? Thought so. My point was that most people who look for $500 computers don't know much about computers, and Apple probably would be better for them, but they don't know why. They don't take the time to understand the range of products before them, so they just purchase what seems to be the best price.
before i got my laptop(macbook) i built a custom PC with 400dollars, for primary use, im poor, im student and i dont think i dont know about computers, oh and i have never got a virus under windows
you say people who buy 500dollars PC's are often ignorant about computers but so do many mac users,we have ignorants on both sides, have you seen apple's Mac vs PC TV commercials? they are just stupid, nothing else
your point is invalid
 

-::ubermann::-

macrumors regular
Sep 9, 2006
213
0
apple does not use low quality hardware? intelGMA 950? macbook's monitor? the combo drive? are good examples of low quality
when i have a very damaged disc my macbook usually isnt able to read them, but my custom pc's 30$ dvdRW can read it, how is that?
im not bashing macs(i still prefer them over some PC's) but some of you guys seem to be not only fans, but fanatics to apple which is not a good thing also
 

MacPossum

macrumors 6502
Jul 15, 2007
280
0
I for one like the... 'higher' prices on Apple computers. Not because I'm some millionaire or live in a mansion. Forgive me if you think of I'm being rude but the slightly more expensive prodcuts seem to keep the 'rift-raft' out of the bunch. I think this is one of the reasons why we don't see people creativing viruses for OS X. Apple offers a small line of computer products when compared to something like Dell, HP, Compaq, Toshiba, Sony, and the other computer companies.

Apple products seem to last longer than those other guys stuff. Think about it. Some people here are still using Mac's that are 4 or 5 years old and they're still running like they did on day one! There's always going to be complainers about this problem and that one with their electronics but Apple does a wonderful job of giving us top-of-the-line products.

Here's one vote for hoping Apple doesn't go down the cheap road, they don't need to.
 

netdog

macrumors 603
Feb 6, 2006
5,760
38
London
Let's see:

A $600 phone
New 20" Aluminum iMac, a $1200 all-in-one?
Getting rid of the Mini?
Their CHEAPEST laptop is $1099?

What's up? :(

I remember when this was the problem before back in the late 80's, so to combat it, Apple came out with the Mac Classic (first Mac under $1000!) the LC, and the IIsi...

Guess he works for Apple given all the inside information here :rolleyes:
 

aristobrat

macrumors G5
Oct 14, 2005
12,292
1,403
before i got my laptop(macbook) i built a custom PC with 400dollars, for primary use, im poor, im student and i dont think i dont know about computers, oh and i have never got a virus under windows
you say people who buy 500dollars PC's are often ignorant about computers but so do many mac users,we have ignorants on both sides, have you seen apple's Mac vs PC TV commercials? they are just stupid, nothing else
your point is invalid
A: "i built a custom PC with 400dollars"
B: "i have never got a virus under windows"

C: "i dont know about computers"

Speaking of invalid points, what you say in A+B directly contradict what you say in C. :confused:
 

CalBoy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2007
7,849
37
before i got my laptop(macbook) i built a custom PC with 400dollars, for primary use, im poor, im student and i dont think i dont know about computers, oh and i have never got a virus under windows
you say people who buy 500dollars PC's are often ignorant about computers but so do many mac users,we have ignorants on both sides, have you seen apple's Mac vs PC TV commercials? they are just stupid, nothing else
your point is invalid

I note you built that computer yourself. I was refering to those who attempt to purchase $500 computers, not build them. You're not the average computer-illiterate user.
 

gkarris

macrumors G3
Original poster
Dec 31, 2004
8,301
1,061
"No escape from Reality...”
Well, tomorrow we find out what Apple will do.

Will they keep the 17"?

How much for an entry level iMac?

Will they keep the Minis?

How much for an entry level Mac?

As far as the Minis, we may not find that out until October...
 

MacManTexas56

macrumors 68020
Apr 4, 2005
2,496
384
apple has always had this approach.........the price isn't the big issue for me. It's how these Hardcore mac zealots approach the price tags of apple. I don't mind paying $1500 for an all in one machine that no one else makes. I don't mind paying that premium bc no one else has come out with something like it. for instance....the mac mini that i use for my media center. The problem is apple charges a premium on stuff that doesn'tn require a premium....like a desktop or a laptop. Come on, charging $2200 for a mac pro with less specs than a brand new $800 dell? $500 will get you a darn good setup nowadays. Tech prices have gone way down while apple prices have either risen or stayed the same. I can get 2 24inch lcds, quad core desktop pc for around $1800....still $400 less than the cheapest mac pro that has LESS specs than the dell. try 2 23inch lcds and a mac pro....you're looking at $1800 in JUST the lcd's. It's all the same hardware, but the mac zealots won't come to that reality.....just bc dell has a badge on it doesn't mean they make their own crappy parts. It's all from the same companies........

$1,000 for a basic starter computer is pretty sad considering the price of current tech hardware. A lot of people aren't going to go for a $1,000 Apple when they could go for an HP or a Dell for less than half that cost. I have this view bc i have both PC and apple. I use to have a MB, MBP, and an iMac so it's not like i'm a dell fanboi by any means. Most of the apple users have one sided view and only see apple and won't come to the truth that they are REALLY overpaying for their hardware. OSX aside....bc that's gonna be the main argument......the hardware prices are out of control.
 

CalBoy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2007
7,849
37
apple has always had this approach.........the price isn't the big issue for me. It's how these Hardcore mac zealots approach the price tags of apple. I don't mind paying $1500 for an all in one machine that no one else makes. I don't mind paying that premium bc no one else has come out with something like it. for instance....the mac mini that i use for my media center. The problem is apple charges a premium on stuff that doesn'tn require a premium....like a desktop or a laptop. Come on, charging $2200 for a mac pro with less specs than a brand new $800 dell? $500 will get you a darn good setup nowadays. Tech prices have gone way down while apple prices have either risen or stayed the same. I can get 2 24inch lcds, quad core desktop pc for around $1800....still $400 less than the cheapest mac pro that has LESS specs than the dell. try 2 23inch lcds and a mac pro....you're looking at $1800 in JUST the lcd's. It's all the same hardware, but the mac zealots won't come to that reality.....just bc dell has a badge on it doesn't mean they make their own crappy parts. It's all from the same companies........

$1,000 for a basic starter computer is pretty sad considering the price of current tech hardware. A lot of people aren't going to go for a $1,000 Apple when they could go for an HP or a Dell for less than half that cost. I have this view bc i have both PC and apple. I use to have a MB, MBP, and an iMac so it's not like i'm a dell fanboi by any means. Most of the apple users have one sided view and only see apple and won't come to the truth that they are REALLY overpaying for their hardware. OSX aside....bc that's gonna be the main argument......the hardware prices are out of control.

Yes indeed, $500 will get you a decent computer these days, however, don't expect it to be a SR 2.2+GHZ with an LED backlit screen weighing only 5.3 lbs and being only an inch thick. When you compare equal specs with equal specs, you'll notice that Apple isn't far off (in fact, in some cases, it's a little cheaper, esspecially for us students:)). Now, I'm saying this from the notebook point of view, I don't really bother keeping track of desktop prices because desktops bore me a little:eek: What you need to keep in mind, is that while Apple may start at the $1,000 level while HP and Dell might start at the $500 level is that they are drastically different computers (again, notebook perspective). Apple chooses to not sell at the bargain basement level, as does IBM(Lenovo) and Sony. Having higher standards is not equal to being a snob.
 

gkarris

macrumors G3
Original poster
Dec 31, 2004
8,301
1,061
"No escape from Reality...”
Let's see:

A $600 phone
New 20" Aluminum iMac, a $1200 all-in-one?
Getting rid of the Mini?
Their CHEAPEST laptop is $1099?

What's up? :(

I remember when this was the problem before back in the late 80's, so to combat it, Apple came out with the Mac Classic (first Mac under $1000!) the LC, and the IIsi...

Called it...

Will we see a Mac with a lower price point? Will the Mini survive until the end of the day???
 

CalBoy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2007
7,849
37
Called it...

Will we see a Mac with a lower price point? Will the Mini survive until the end of the day???

Well it clearly did didn't it? Although not as much as I expected, but nonetheless, it continues to be an Apple product.
 

gkarris

macrumors G3
Original poster
Dec 31, 2004
8,301
1,061
"No escape from Reality...”
Well it clearly did didn't it? Although not as much as I expected, but nonetheless, it continues to be an Apple product.

Looks like the death of the 17" insured the life of the Mini.

The keyboards got upscaled as well. $49 for the basic keyboard. The old $29 is already sold out everywhere.
 

CalBoy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2007
7,849
37
The keyboards got upscaled as well. $49 for the basic keyboard. The old $29 is already sold out everywhere.

There's one thing I can agree with! The new keyboard is way overpriced. Basic components like keyboards are so cheap, so why does Apple feel the need to charge $50? Because it's premium. Just like how Microsoft charges a lot for its keyboards. Personally, I'm going to hunt down a good old $30 one and snatch it up.
 

kumbaya

macrumors regular
Jan 12, 2005
118
0
1000 bucks in 1980 is a heck of alot more than 1000 bucks today......

Interesting link

$1000 in 1980 is worth $2447 in 2006

Even more interesting:
$1199 (iMac) in 2006 was $490 in 1980
$599 (Mac Mini) in 2006 was $245 in 1980

So we're really only paying $490 for the iMac :p

*Using the Consumer Price Index measure of changing value of money...
 
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