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fs454

macrumors 68000
Dec 7, 2007
1,986
1,875
Los Angeles / Boston
That, my friend, is exactly my point. It's not Apple's fault that the machine's haven't leapt forward in power and utility and so justify Apple's (usual Rev A) pricing. But with that limitation, the price hike is just too much.

I think the slow down in processor improvements requires a re-think in the pricing model of new laptops. Their shelf life is going to elongate. A 7% improvement in processing justifies maintaining the old entry price, not a £350 price hike from £1,099 to £1449.

The new shape is clever. It's impressive, but it doesn't justify a price hike. They were already light, and thin.


And to add insult to injury the primary users / buyers of a 15" MBP would have been much more impressed with not having a notebook that's 12% thinner but instead allowing 32/64GB RAM configs and maybe even a GTX 1050/1060? Apple has been doing unthinkable things on the ARM side, you'd think they would be able to work some TDP magic and offer a mobile workstation that makes the others look fat without having to go smaller than the 2012-2015. The top end models would have 8-9 hour claimed battery life, and the base, lower end dDPU + 8 or 16GB of RAM models could boast 12-14 hour batteries if they had retained that 99.5wh pack across all 15" models.

I'd gladly pay any amount for that. Top me off at $5k, whatever.
[doublepost=1478286518][/doublepost]Also, what do we think is the reason on Intel's side? Is it purely lack of competition and greed? Or are we hitting a technical limitation of silicon?
 
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manhattanboy

macrumors 6502a
Jan 25, 2007
960
370
In ur GF's bed, Oh no he didn't!
I belive the same there is a pent up demand form the hardcore fans, and only one place to purchase; Apple`s online store. In the longterm I only see the MBP selling in lower numbers that the outgoing models; too expensive for the average consumer, too diluted for many professional users. All the "Pro" users I know who are in the marketed are far from impressed, with some being now more interested in Microsoft`s upcoming Surface Studio.

All Apple has produced this time around is a nice consumer notebook, albeit very expensive with the "Pro"emphasis solidly being one of Profit...

Pretty sure everything they do is geared towards Profit. Tim Cook would be out the door as CEO if he didn't do that.

Their mobile lineup is a cluster****. I don't understand the differentiation between the lines.

MacBook: Ultra-light, low-power, compact laptop.
MacBook Air: Light, low-power, compact laptop. Except tapered, has the only non-Retina display in the whole lineup, but is faster and with more ports??
MacBook Pro: Light, high-power, compact laptop. Adds 2" of screen on some models and a required TouchBar on some models. And new ports. But only half speed on one side of one model, and only half as many on the base model???

So:
The MacBook has a turd oddball-resolution display that's too small.
The MacBook Air has a turd display that's too old.
The MacBook Pro has a turd TouchBar you can't get rid of if you want a bigger display and turd pricing.

One of these lines should have been killed, 13" non-oddball resolution Retina should be the "lowest" display you can get, and the TouchBar should be an optional keyboard upgrade not a required add-on that's yet to prove its value.

The MacBook Air is discontinued by obsolescence. Maybe you missed that during Apple's recent presentation but they clearly stated no more MacBook Airs going forward. To me Apple's line-up could not be more straight forward and is exactly as they presented it:

Ultra-portability -> MacBook
High performance AND portability -> MacBook Pro

If anything this new laptop line-up makes a lot of sense through the lens of what they have done for the iPhones. A 13in (regular) and 15in (plus) model of their flagship [e.g. the regular iPhone equivalent] product and a smaller and cheaper version for the 12in MacBook [the iPhone SE equivalent].

There are two compromises for cost: those that cannot afford a MacBook can get an iPad Pro. Those that cannot afford the MacBrook Pro can get the one without the touchbar.
 

spacebro

Suspended
Oct 1, 2015
552
482
I feel like I get nickel and dimed for mac software. For instance, macos dropped support for my work vpn, it just stopped working one day. I can buy a 3rd party app that costs a bit of money and who knows how well it will work or how long it will be supported. Install cyberduck if you want to use remote file systems because apple wants to sell more icloud subscriptions or something. Install some clunky program that doesn't even work anymore if you want to be able to position a window to the left or right half of your screen. Tell me how premium the user experience is when you can only manually move/resize windows and everything gets jumbled up whenever you switch from external display to laptop. I swear I spend more time resizing my windows when I get to the coffee shop than it takes to walk to the coffee shop. The apple I knew had a premium user experience and didn't require a bunch of garbage apps installed.
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
Pretty sure everything they do is geared towards Profit. Tim Cook would be out the door as CEO if he didn't do that.

Tim Cook is doing a decent job for the stock holder, just which Apple`s focus was more customer centric. Right now I do feel that Apple is pushing the boundaries with it`s margin. Don't know about others to me some of Apple`s tactics just come off as cheap or pushing additional cost to it`s customers. Apple`s in house upgrades are a very good example, they are deliberately designed to build margin.

Obviously Apple is in business to make money, equally just how much money does Apple need and why does it feel the necessitation almost punish it customers in some instances. Some decisions come across as a blatant cash grabs and sheer greed, this I believe is where the pushback is centred. Anyway how Apple deals with it`s business is done to Apple, and for the most part we are all just interested observers.

Q-6
 
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Obi Wan Kenobi

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 9, 2011
509
345
London, UK
What people forget is that Apple is a hardware company. Did you guys forget that we get almost all of the software for free? Mac OS, iTunes, Mail, Safari, an office suite, etc etc. Remember the days we had to pay for OS upgrades every year? Or pay for email and cloud services (I do and have a .mac email address still!)? Or iLife? You have to pay for that one way or another. I think Apple is just building those fees into new hardware pricing.
No-one's forgotten that. All of those items were included in the last Rev A MacBook Pro release.

The simple point is that the technological advances do not justify the price hike of the hardware. Where the processor power is essentially maintained, and only incrementally increased, the price should remain the same or only have a marginal equivalent increase. So if the processor improves 7%, the price cannot increase by any more than 7% at most. But given that everyone else is using the same chips without such price hikes, the more reasonable approach would be to maintain the previous prices.

MacBook Pros would still be premium products, and still be high quality products. In that way Apple's market share would increase. The new pricing structure asks for too much extra money for too little extra performance.

Reducing the price of the dongles/adaptors is a tacit acknowledgement of the pricing error. The 'courageous' thing to do would be to adjust the prices of the MacBook Pros to better reflect the reality. As all of the touch-bar-MBPs have yet to ship, this would have been easy to do. As for the touch-bar-less-MBPs, customers could seek refunds if they wished, or returned them. It was (and is) still early enough to do that.

Apple has kept it's pricing strategy from the days of processor revolution, but the chips aren't revolutionary any more. This pricing level was a mistake.
 
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paaj

macrumors member
Oct 27, 2016
54
20
£ increases have the excuse of the weak GBP. I think dollar and euro prices are pretty similar but with intel not delivering the Iris 580 we are stuck with de dGPU version as standard.
 

Marco123

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2012
693
190
It's no wonder Apple want us all to move over to iPad and iPad Pro.
If we did then they can control prices and updates even more as they design the cpu.with intel they are stuck to whatever intel releases.
They also don't have the leverage they would like because the MacBook lines don't sell as much as dell etc.
 
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bxs

macrumors 65816
Oct 20, 2007
1,151
529
Seattle, WA
That, my friend, is exactly my point. It's not Apple's fault that the machine's haven't leapt forward in power and utility and so justify Apple's (usual Rev A) pricing. But with that limitation, the price hike is just too much.

I think the slow down in processor improvements requires a re-think in the pricing model of new laptops. Their shelf life is going to elongate. A 7% improvement in processing justifies maintaining the old entry price, not a £350 price hike from £1,099 to £1449.

The new shape is clever. It's impressive, but it doesn't justify a price hike. They were already light, and thin.

For me.... I bought a Late 2011 17-inch MacBookPro (2.5 GHz, 4core, 7200rpm spinner, 8GB RAM, Anti Glare screen, single TB-1 port) for around $3100. I'm finding the new 15-inch MBP with Retina display, 2.6GHz i7, 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD at $2399 to be 16% faster (single core) and a bargain for me. My only disappointment is the 15-inch display, but can live with this for the Retina feature.
 

Samuelsan2001

macrumors 604
Oct 24, 2013
7,729
2,153
There is currently a pent up demand for the new MacBook Pro, but once that is exhausted, the new MacBook Pro will be a tough sell.

Apple has already alienated the professionals by removing the ports and SDXC slot.

That means that Apple would have to sell even more of the new MBP to consumers and consumers are much more sensitive to prices than do professionals.
[doublepost=1478275545][/doublepost]

Err? What are some innovations Apple made to the Mac lately?



The new MacBook Pro doesn't warrant the price hikes since technology gets cheaper over time.

For example, I doubt that Intel hike up the price of Skylake so that it's more expensive than Haswell, assuming equivalent timeline.

What a touch bar, no one else has and may be the answer to touch screen hideousness (I hate them on a laptop that simple).

Or the complete set of thunderbolt 3 USB c connection where every port will do it all, again no one else has that.

Or the incredibly thin and light but still some of the most powerful laptops out there, with the best battery life/performance/portability balance you can buy.

That is all innovation.

Maybe not what YOU want but great innovation none the less.
 
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tivoboy

macrumors 601
May 15, 2005
4,052
853
posted in another thread a week ago, sorry if you've read it already:

I guess I'm one who doesn't find the pricing (not price) mostly reasonable.

nearly 4.5 years ago, 2012 the original rMBP I purchased was 2.6 i7 16GB ram, 256GB SSD with retina screen was 2279$..

With just CPI inflation of nearly 5.2% that price today would be 2400$. And, not coincidentally that is EXACTLY what the price of the NEW 15" touch bar rMPB is, with a 2.6 ghz processor and 16GB RAM and 256GB SSD.

Now, I know that everyone likes to think that the price of technology and electronics goes DOWN overtime, which it does relative to PERFORMANCE but for the most part the RETAIL price of technology does NOT go down. Companies are very loath to ever have the retail price of ANYTHING go down as it makes their overall revenue and profit picture looks WORSE year to year and that's bad for stock performance and optics. So, we get NEW and better and FASTER and lighter technology and we get new and better R&D in the shape of form factors and materials and battery life and features, etc. But we won't necessarily get lower prices product to product.

But, what we don't really get is LOWER prices and for the most part, with generations of system upgrades or major new product models, we should get a pass through of inflation and some R&D cost applied. Over the lifetime of a generation of mac models, we'll get performance upgrades and usually over 2-5 years we'll actually get price DECREASES, but we don't usually see a price INCREASE DURING a generation product as manufacturers don't like to try and push inflation adjustments onto the consumer so optically. They wait for a generational STEP to make the STEP UP in adjusted pricing for inflation. I'm fine with that.

So, while noone likes to pay MORE for something that what they used to - with the neglect of any calculation to the value of the new products features or performance - its just the way of the world. True with technology, computer equipment, cell phones, medical devices and equipment, AUTOMOBILES, air conditioners, pretty much anything that doesn't have a major commodity component that could be canabalized or optimized.

In the past 4.5 years, we've had DOMESTICALLY 5.2% inflation. Internationally, especially in China we've had MUCH HIGHER inflation and that WAGE inflation for manufacture is certainly a component of the necessary cost increases. New devices require new manufacturing techniques and processes. Lines must be changed, workers must be skilled up, these workers in china are up nearly 20% in the past five years, for wages. Inflation in China is up TWICE the USA domestic inflation amount. Many of these input costs for computer parts are sourced in Asia/China, and they have had more inflation that we domestically have had.

The changes to pricing for foreign markets is yet another factor, and in the case of the UK it is a necessary shift due to what is most certainly going to be a PROLONGED drop in the value of the british pound and a currency adjustment is warranted and necessary. This is due to brexit, no way around it. We had the same thing a few years back as the russian rouble was cratering and all pricing had to be adjusted - IN REAL TIME and during the year - no product cycle adjustments to try and hide it.

So, we may not like having to pay slightly more for the products we love and use DAILY, but for the most part I don't see this is "price gouging" and "trying to squeeze their loyal customers for every cent", but rather a necessary and JUSTIFIABLE price increase based solely on the cost of doing business and the rising price of EVERYTHING in a fortunately growing economy.
 

Obi Wan Kenobi

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 9, 2011
509
345
London, UK
@tivoboy You make a lot of good points. I freely concede the Brexit-pound-plummet was inevitably going to lead to a price adjustment in the UK, and a devastating one at that.

But in the UK inflation has been very low, less than 1% for some time now. I understand it to be the same in the US.

You say that R&D costs need to be passed on. I understand and accept that too, but where the developments are incrementally faster and smaller, they don't justify a large jump from the previous price point.

Please note, I don't suggest Apple are 'price-gouging' or 'trying to squeeze their loyal customers for every cent'. I think they've looked at what the charged for previous Rev A models, and used that as their price guide. You make the point yourself, that the price is remarkably close to the 2012 rMBP. My point is that instead of doing that they should have maintained the price points and thereby given value to their customers (who would have loved them for it).
 

wbrat

macrumors regular
Sep 18, 2014
219
200
I personally don't blame them for the price of a base model as we don't know how costly it was to develop new MBPs. But prices for upgrades (more RAM, more storage etc) should have been more reasonable. It is really annoying.

Don't you think that iMacs are suspiciously cheap when compared to MBPs? Or to those new LG monitors?
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Don't you think that iMacs are suspiciously cheap when compared to MBPs? Or to those new LG monitors?
No, my iMac cost me over 2k, so I don't think the iMac is suspiciously cheaper then the MBP.
 

Obi Wan Kenobi

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 9, 2011
509
345
London, UK
Don't you think that iMacs are suspiciously cheap when compared to MBPs? Or to those new LG monitors?

No, my iMac cost me over 2k, so I don't think the iMac is suspiciously cheaper then the MBP.

They are priced well at the moment as it has been a while since the last refresh. It'll be interesting to see the price points they use for the new models expected next year.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
They are priced well at the moment as it has been a while since the last refresh. It'll be interesting to see the price points they use for the new models expected next year.
Don't get me wrong, i love my iMac but its an expensive computer. I struggled to justify spending so much. Part of my reasoning is that I have a higher expectation that the iMac will last years longer then a laptop.
 
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tivoboy

macrumors 601
May 15, 2005
4,052
853
@tivoboy You make a lot of good points. I freely concede the Brexit-pound-plummet was inevitably going to lead to a price adjustment in the UK, and a devastating one at that.

But in the UK inflation has been very low, less than 1% for some time now. I understand it to be the same in the US.

technically in the UK, the inflation between 6/2012 and today has been higher than in the USA. Even if one takes it back to pre-brexit dates, it has been higher on a cumulative basis - which is the same basis I quoted above for USA inflation.

So, the inflationary impact on pricing in the UK is even more of a driver into the new retail pricing - but actually can't compete with the brexit impact on currency cross rates of the lb to the usd

And sorry about the 'price gouging' reference, that was from the other thread that I had originally commented on - and copied this text from. No offense.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,144
7,120
What people forget is that Apple is a hardware company. Did you guys forget that we get almost all of the software for free? Mac OS, iTunes, Mail, Safari, an office suite, etc etc. Remember the days we had to pay for OS upgrades every year? Or pay for email and cloud services (I do and have a .mac email address still!)? Or iLife? You have to pay for that one way or another. I think Apple is just building those fees into new hardware pricing.

Agreed. This is why I get Apple products. The software is very nice and most of it is free.
 

chrisrosemusic1

macrumors 6502a
Jan 31, 2012
696
21
Northamptonshire, England
What people forget is that Apple is a hardware company. Did you guys forget that we get almost all of the software for free? Mac OS, iTunes, Mail, Safari, an office suite, etc etc. Remember the days we had to pay for OS upgrades every year? Or pay for email and cloud services (I do and have a .mac email address still!)? Or iLife? You have to pay for that one way or another. I think Apple is just building those fees into new hardware pricing.

For the first time since this rallying began over the prices I think you've hit the nail on the head with this. You are right, the software bundled now is probably of £300-400 in value over 10 years ago when I bought my first MacBook and had to spend £80 here for iWork and so on.

I still think the pricing now is extremely high though, because we were getting this software with the £999 MacBooks of 4 years ago, but you do make me feel I can justify it more than I did yesterday.
 
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