Apple is not going to stop starting at 8GB anytime soon. And that's good.

[arcite]

Here’s my take. The base 8GIG RAM variants of MacBooks are the cheap, low cost ‘aisle crasher’ product. It has all the latest tech….but with a small catch. But it’s CHEAP, maybe even below cost. Certainly, the profit margins for Apple are smaller on a $1600 laptop vs. A $2500-$3000 one! Simple math!

Now once you start upgrade, err…..’upselling’, that’s where the real profit for Apple is made. It’s like when you have a new car starting at $35K, but if you want heated seats, better stereo system, 4WD ect… now you have a $50K car. Pay up!

 

[memento mori]

I had a work-issued MBA M2 and 8GB of RAM is absolutely abysmal for my use cases, and I'm NOT a power-user in any way. I work as a corporate tax advisor, which means I'm always researching something and I have to have a lot of tabs open, I have multiple large pdf's open, a couple of web apps (Google sheets, docs, sometimes Workday, sometimes PowerBi etc.), Slack, Spotify etc.
So basically I'm doing on a computer things that office workers have been doing on their computers for decades, and the 8GB of RAM was a real bottleneck. My laptop would get bogged down, reload tabs, take a long time to switch between apps - a horrible experience, and I asked my company to replace it with a Windows laptop with 16GB of RAM, which was certainly an upgrade in terms of multitasking.

The fact that Apple released an expensive Pro laptop with the same amount of RAM as their phones just speaks volumes about how low they think of their customers IMO. A computer by itself is a multi-tasking tool with apps running in the background, having multiple instances of the same app running, and performing more demanding tasks in general.

This is another instance of overzealous pricing analysts and business developers getting in the way of decent user experience in an embarrassing fashion, the same way 16GB of base storage did for phones and tablets when every competitor was offering 64GB for a cheaper price, or offering a spinning hard drives in $1300 all-in-one, in 2020. It's why MacBooks have a reputation of being toys and glorified Facebook machines - because for the vast majority of people who buy the base configuration, you really can't do much more than browse a couple of tabs in a Web browser and maybe have one instance of a demanding app running.
What's even more sad that there are individuals acting against their self-interest by advocating for such actions on behalf of a corporation.

 

[SolarBear28]

I had a work-issued MBA M2 and 8GB of RAM is absolutely abysmal for my use cases, and I'm NOT a power-user in any way. I work as a corporate tax advisor, which means I'm always researching something and I have to have a lot of tabs open, I have multiple large pdf's open, a couple of web apps (Google sheets, docs, sometimes Workday, sometimes PowerBi etc.), Slack, Spotify etc.
So basically I'm doing on a computer things that office workers have been doing on their computers for decades, and the 8GB of RAM was a real bottleneck. My laptop would get bogged down, reload tabs, take a long time to switch between apps - a horrible experience, and I asked my company to replace it with a Windows laptop with 16GB of RAM, which was certainly an upgrade in terms of multitasking.

...for the vast majority of people who buy the base configuration, you really can't do much more than browse a couple of tabs in a Web browser and maybe have one instance of a demanding app running.
What's even more sad that there are individuals acting against their self-interest by advocating for such actions on behalf of a corporation.

I completely agree with this. The technical limitations of 8GB of RAM are clear. It's puzzling that many people are arguing on behalf of a company to extract the most money from people rather than on customers behalf for a better value product. And from what i can see, pretty much everyone saying that 8GB of RAM is enough for their needs are using Airs, Minis etc. and not a Macbook Pro.

 

[Tagbert]

I completely agree with this. The technical limitations of 8GB of RAM are clear. It's puzzling that many people are arguing on behalf of a company to extract the most money from people rather than on customers behalf for a better value product. And from what i can see, pretty much everyone saying that 8GB of RAM is enough for their needs are using Airs, Minis etc. and not a Macbook Pro.

I don’t think that it is “right” but I can see some of the reasons why Apple does it.

They have targets for sales and for margin on a product line. They do not budge on those targets. They plan for a specific mix of base model and upgraded sales to get the margins that they want. If they start the base models with higher specs, then they will sell fewer upgrades. It is likely that those upgrades are a big part of their margins and by having those they can accept the lower margins on the cheaper base models. In a sense, the upgraded models pay for the lower price of the base models. If they were to upgrade the base model, they would probably have to increase the price of those models in order to maintain their expected margins.

This 8GB spec for the base Macbook Pro is not a new situation, it is just in a new case, now. The previous MBP 13” also had an 8GB base RAM spec. Apple has said that it was the second most popular Mac in their lineup. It is clear that there is a market for a laptop that has “Pro” in the name but that doesn’t cost $2000. The people buying it are probably not expecting top tier performance, but they don’t feel comfortable with the “baby” Air and are willing to spend a little more to feel better about their purchase. Is it logical, not, but people’s buying decisions are often driven by emotions and customers perceptions of status. Apple understands that and has crafted the base models of their Pro like to satisfy that need. The 8GB models are not slow machines, they are just not as good as the models with more RAM.

To a lot of customers, “Pro” doesn’t mean a professional tool, just just means the nicer one. Kind of like “LX” models of Hondas were the nicer model than the “DX” or the “Sport”. Don’t get too hung up on that name.

Is this ideal? Is this how we all want this to work? Obviously not, but it is the messy reality of marketing and sales and how that relates to customers wants and needs.

 

[Dade Murphy]

8 gigs in you Mac, no problem. 8 gigs in your iPhone? Well, you’re a silly one, aren’t ya? Hahahaha

 

[jamesjingyi]

I think the thing I think is most annoying is just that you have to go to Apple (at least in the UK) to do your RAM upgrade, and that has to be online rather than in store. You can’t get it from say Amazon with that upgrade, meaning you don’t get the discounted prices, and the second hand market will be flooded with 8GB models as that’s all anyone has bought unless they went to Apple and custom configured one.

 

[h.gilbert]

Low RAM equals multiple page swaps leading to wear on the SSD. Thus shortening its lifespan to upgrade sooner as the SSD is not user replaceable.

If that was the case you'd probably see tons more threads on various internet forums and sites about users with SSD failure. Think of all the 8GB macbooks Apple has sold over the years. The fact that there isn't much reporting of SSD failure means writing to SSD for swap is probably not a big deal and your just pedalling a narrative that you've heard someone else mutter.

 

[Tagbert]

There are lots of videos showing how light of a workload already results in using the SSD storage for memory.

The SSDs are non-replaceable and their failure means a logic board failure (has to be replaced entirely). SSDs have a limited lifespan of write cycles.

None of this is even contestable. The only question is whether or not it causes a device failure ahead of the end of its useful life. 8GB non-upgradeable RAM starving the device at new in 2024, maybe the whole device will be simply too slow before the SSD fails. Could only take a couple of years anyways. How else is Apple going to convince people to hand over another $2K three years from now? They love nothing more than people who don't have a clue what's going on.

I suspect only Apple has the data on why logic boards fail, if anyone. When the board on my 2020 5k iMac 8GB failed, Apple didn't say why, they just replaced the whole thing. I since tossed in 32 GB for $75 so hopefully it'll be fine for the rest of the decade that it will be good for.

We are not contesting that swapping is happening. We are questioning the assumption that that leads to SSD failure. Of course it probably increases the wear on SSDs to some extent but it’s not clear that that leads inevitably to SSD failure in any kind of reasonable timeframe. Apple has been using 8GB as their base RAM for at least 9 years and we have not seen large cohorts of owners with Macs with dead SSDs.

 

[h.gilbert]

The only question is whether or not it causes a device failure ahead of the end of its useful life.

Well don't you think that's a very easy question to answer? How many millions of SSD equipped 8GB macbooks are used by people around the world? How often do you hear about SSD failure on this site, or Reddit, or wherever?

 

[Al Rukh]

Wow, you guys will find out inventive ways to rationalize every crappy Apple practice lol

With this train of thought, you might as well keep all the macs at 128gb/8gb ram because "the average user doesn't need it, everyone uses the cloud". C'mon, just pony up $100 for 256gb, $300 for 512gb, or $500 for 1tb and another $200/$400 for 16/32gb of ram to pay your power user tax.

EDIT: Your only job as a consumer should be to make sure you get the value you deserve for how much you're spending on a product. I'm sure you guys do this for everything else you buy, but turn a blind eye when it comes to Apple.

I don’t disagree. I would like to add: Your job as a consumer is to evaluate what you need from a machine, and draw up a budget of what you’re willing to pay for said need. Your job as a consumer does not involve in determining how much a product should cost for you or for the masses. It does not make the consumer smart, it makes them ignorant to how businesses are managed and where the logistic constraints are in a production and manufacturing standpoint.

 

[Peepo]

They should have made entry level MBP M3 come with 12GB instead of 8GB - this would probably solve most issues of 8GB not quite being enough, and still differentiate it from the higher M3 Pro models.

 

[EdwardC]

I was looking for a new machine and Micro Center had a ThinkPad T-14, 11th gen i5, 8GB RAM, 256 SSD for $549.00. Not the newest but nicely built. The cool part was I bought another 8GB stick for $28.00 and took about 10 minutes to install. I wish Apple was still this way like back in the old days.

 

[hans1972]

I completely agree with this. The technical limitations of 8GB of RAM are clear. It's puzzling that many people are arguing on behalf of a company to extract the most money from people rather than on customers behalf for a better value product. And from what i can see, pretty much everyone saying that 8GB of RAM is enough for their needs are using Airs, Minis etc. and not a Macbook Pro.

Because some of us are realistic about Apple's pricing.

In choosing between the base model to be

1) Cost X, comes with 8Gb of RAM

or

2) Cost X + $200, comes with 16Gb of RAM

We want 1) also to exist.

A lot of people here on MacRumors are arguing for "the base model should come with 16Gb of RAM" without mentioning the price.

For those who wants the base model to come with 16Gb of RAM they would be happy with

3) Cost X + $1000, comes with 16Gb of RAM

if we take what they say literally.

 

[SolarBear28]

3) Cost X + $1000, comes with 16Gb of RAM

if we take what they say literally.

Literally nobody would be happy with this and you know that.
The assumption that Apple couldn't offer or wouldn't make enough money with a base model at $1600 with 16GB is one that you and many other's are making, and its completely false.

 

[Abazigal]

Literally nobody would be happy with this and you know that.
The assumption that Apple couldn't offer or wouldn't make enough money with a base model at $1600 with 16GB is one that you and many other's are making, and its completely false.

Nobody is making that assumption.

This whole argument basically boils down to this:

Apple could very well offer a version of the M3 MBP with 16gb ram default at the same starting price while still making a profit. I don't think anything is denying that. Heck, Apple could make 24gb ram and 512gb storage the default and still make money.

What we are debating about is whether Apple should do so, and right now, it seems like the best argument that people can muster is "I want more ram but don't want to pay so much for an upgraded MacBook". It's not a wrong sentiment to have (who would want to pay more if they didn't have to), but it also feels disingenuous to attempt to conflate your own personal desires with that of every other potential Mac consumer in the world.

First and foremost, I maintain that 8gb ram and 256gb storage does indeed suffice for the vast majority of Apple's user base. Attempting to paint every single Macbook user as some professional who spends the bulk of their time in Lightroom or Photoshop or FCP is just misleading. Or that 8gb ram is somehow insufficient for running basic apps like mail, a couple of browser tabs and MS Office.

Pro users probably make up like a single-digit percentage of Apple's Mac user base, and that's what the "pro" offerings like the Mac Studio, and M3 max / pro laptops are for. They aren't cheap, and that's the point, that their price tag is meant to be commensurate with the value Apple believes they will bring to the end user.

TL;DR - Apple could offer a base model with 16gb ram. I just don't feel the current arguments as to why they should do so are particularly compelling.

 

[SolarBear28]

What we are debating about is whether Apple should do so, and right now, it seems like the best argument that people can muster is "I want more ram but don't want to pay so much for an upgraded MacBook". It's not a wrong sentiment to have (who would want to pay more if they didn't have to), but it also feels disingenuous to attempt to conflate your own personal desires with that of every other potential Mac consumer in the world.

Someone's desire for a less expensive or higher value product in no way negatively affects any other Mac customers... and no customer would be against it if they have their own interests in mind.

 

[Tagbert]

Literally nobody would be happy with this and you know that.
The assumption that Apple couldn't offer or wouldn't make enough money with a base model at $1600 with 16GB is one that you and many other's are making, and its completely false.

the thought is that Apple would still make almost the same profit on that base model with 16GB as it does now. The cost of the RAM is not significant. Where Apple would lose profit is in missing the upgrade price. They expect a certain number of people to spend more on an upgrade to 16GB of RAM. If you give that away, some or most of those people would not be spending that extra money and Apple would lose revenue. that is their calculation. They are not going to do anything that impacts their bottom line.

 

[Abazigal]

Someone's desire for a less expensive or higher value product in no way negatively affects any other Mac customers... and no customer would be against it if they have their own interests in mind.

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. All other things equal, I wouldn't say no to a discount on a Mac (or any other product that I am buying for that matter), and I still feel that the MBP is not unreasonably-priced for what it offers, or that its starting specs very likely suffice for the majority of Apple's user populace.

I disagree with this whole "Apple must lower the prices of their products or they are greedy scheming *beep* otherwise" rhetoric that has been going on both here and elsewhere.

 

[hans1972]

Literally nobody would be happy with this and you know that.
The assumption that Apple couldn't offer or wouldn't make enough money with a base model at $1600 with 16GB is one that you and many other's are making, and its completely false.

Yes, but most people here argue "Apple should include 16Gb RAM in the base model" which doesn't mentioning anything about price.

Statement 1: "Apple should include 16Gb of RAM in the base model"

Statement 2: "Apple should include 16Gb of RAM in the base mode without increasing the price"

These are two very different statements.

Statement 1 is satisfied if Apple increases the RAM to 16Gb and increases the price.

 

[hans1972]

The assumption that Apple couldn't offer or wouldn't make enough money with a base model at $1600 with 16GB is one that you and many other's are making, and its completely false.

I have never said Apple is incapable of offering 16Gb of RAM without increasing the price. They won't because they want to make more money. Apple will delay increasing it until it becomes troublesome for a large majority of potential buyers.

Who determines what is enough money? Apple, because they are selling the product! If they decide that they're not making enough money by including 16Gb of RAM in the base model, well, then they aren't making enough money.

Who determines if Apple products are too expensive? You, because you are potentially buying the product!

It's called division of labour: Apple determines how the product works and the price, you decide if you want to buy it.

 

[Chuckeee]

t's called division of labour: Apple determines how the product works and the price, you decide if you want to buy it.

Actually I would call it definition of value.

 

[Silvestru Hosszu]

I think the thing I think is most annoying is just that you have to go to Apple (at least in the UK) to do your RAM upgrade, and that has to be online rather than in store. You can’t get it from say Amazon with that upgrade, meaning you don’t get the discounted prices, and the second hand market will be flooded with 8GB models as that’s all anyone has bought unless they went to Apple and custom configured one.

This!
At least in Europe is not very expedient to shop for BTO. If you need a computer ASAP chances are that you have to settle on stock config.
The minimum Apple should do is to have a 16/512 M3 MBP as stock config. They have 8/1TB but not 16/512 which is at least a bit strange.

 

[daabido]

Apple has a time-honoured four-stage test when it comes to upgrading minimum specs;
1. Adequate
2. Inadequate
3. Embarrassing
4. Really, not yet?
5. Minor bump

Just ask anyone who bought an iMac before mid-2020 how much they love their spinning hard drive.

Apple also works on other principals as well;
1. Siri must at all times be a supreme embarrassment.
2. Funnel taxes away from supporting local countries where purchases are made to tax havens, just waiting for a US tax holiday, all while polishing their moral virtues at every turn.
3. Introduce new software products to great fanfare and then let them wither on the vine.
4. Bedazzle whatever environmental project they are currently trumpeting.
5. Equal to or higher than 40% gross profit on all products.
6. Build an army of apologists that despotic regimes would be proud of.
7. Support despotic regimes that target LGBTQIA+ people and at the same time pat themselves on the back for supporting that group. Wait... maybe that's Formula 1.

Anything else I forgot?

 

[steve09090]

Apple has a time-honoured four-stage test when it comes to upgrading minimum specs;
1. Adequate
2. Inadequate
3. Embarrassing
4. Really, not yet?
5. Minor bump

Just ask anyone who bought an iMac before mid-2020 how much they love their spinning hard drive.

Apple also works on other principals as well;
1. Siri must at all times be a supreme embarrassment.
2. Funnel taxes away from supporting local countries where purchases are made to tax havens, just waiting for a US tax holiday, all while polishing their moral virtues at every turn.
3. Introduce new software products to great fanfare and then let them wither on the vine.
4. Bedazzle whatever environmental project they are currently trumpeting.
5. Equal to or higher than 40% gross profit on all products.
6. Build an army of apologists that despotic regimes would be proud of.
7. Support despotic regimes that target LGBTQIA+ people and at the same time pat themselves on the back for supporting that group. Wait... maybe that's Formula 1.

Anything else I forgot?

Firstly, I support Apples stance Of starting M series at 8GB.

But your comments above are so far from the mark. Your last comment, whilst I see where you’re coming from as Tim Cook said, to be a part of the conversation, you need to be in the conversation. He actually said relating to a question about human rights abuses, "to be a part of the game you need to be in the game", but that’s the meaning.

Siri works fine most of the time, and considering I dont want it to decide what is on my Google search or YouTube feed, I’m happy with it.

Using the tax system the way it is set up. Wow, how horrendous. They pay every dollar they have to. They’d be stupid to pay more. But they also contribute to communities when they’re not required to.

Introducing software that is no longer supported. Every company does that (don’t start talking about Google, or you’ll get a word limit warning). Then of course there are companies that distribute apps, but to continue to get updates, you have to pay them again because they introduced version 2 or 3 etc (looking at you fantastical). Apple don’t charge for upgrades to software people have purchased. Ever. And occasionally software becomes redundant in its purpose, and usually there are better options.

I’ll grant you, they tout their good work when they do it. Bedazzle if you wish. They also changed the way all premium companies package their products with recyclable materials. That came from Apple. I can bedazzle their good actions too.

Not sure you know what there markup is. Link please?

Army of apologists? Straight up dumb comment. Or do you mean people who support what they do, versus haters? Huh?

Anything you forgot? Yeah you forgot to declare your position on Apples Vegan Leather.

Edit: your comment about F1 is also astray. The FIA (Mohammed ben Sulayem) tried to stop the drivers speaking out. It didn’t work.

 

[ArkSingularity]

This!
At least in Europe is not very expedient to shop for BTO. If you need a computer ASAP chances are that you have to settle on stock config.
The minimum Apple should do is to have a 16/512 M3 MBP as stock config. They have 8/1TB but not 16/512 which is at least a bit strange.

Yea, I've always thought that was strange too. You can often find the storage-upgraded models in stock, but the RAM-upgraded ones are often harder to find at retailers.

I suppose the situation will at least be a little better this time around if the $2000 11-core model is kept in stock (I'd be very surprised if the mainstream retailers ommitted it). Still pricier than the $1800 16GB 8-core model, but the M3 Pro probably a worthwhile upgrade for those who can afford it (granted, it commands quite a price tag, especially for those who have to consider VAT).