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Salaryman Ryan

macrumors regular
Dec 28, 2015
116
92
Yes, all was perfect with Steve. Like these......

The Lisa
The Cube
Ping
iPhone 4 (this phone actually became unusable when held).

The first Macbook Air that Steve pulled out of the envelope was pretty much terrible from a performance and value perspective. Also remember all the issues that one had? Yikes. Good thing Apple improved it so much it became the gold standard of ultra portables...at least in its heyday.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
Its funny how different people can see things differently. In my opinion, the new MBPs is the most visionary product Apple has released in the last half of decade and 100% in spirit of Steve Jobs.
 

inhalexhale1

macrumors 65816
Jul 17, 2011
1,101
745
PA
Really good point. I don't want to slam the touch bar...it's just not for me, it fails to impress. It's in light of the lack of any significant progress that the touch bar seems to be the Apple Watch embedded in the Mac. Just a kitch-y thing, really. Perceptually less purposeful and more gimmicky.

I'm hoping it has utility like Native Intruments hardware (Audio production). Stock, the most useful and popular controls are mapped to knobs/faders/etc. Customizable. I'm hoping the touch bar has the same utility, for a variety of apps. One thing I like about NI is you can explore and find settings you never knew about through presets. Maybe the touch bar will let developers do stuff like this.
 

Swampthing

Suspended
Mar 5, 2004
651
575
iPhone 4 (this phone actually became unusable when held).

No it didn’t. The signal dropped when you held in a tight gorilla grip covering the outside antenna. “Look, I’m completely covering the antenna and it doesn’t get a signal!!! WOW Apple really messed up!!!” Just like you did here, this has continuously been misrepresented.

In other news, eggs break if you drop them. Water pours if you tip over a full glass. android lovers spend more time on Macrumors than any android board...
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,138
7,112
I agree in a sense...but on the other hand, the macbook itself isn't actually a bad laptop. USB C really is the future. Touchbar with touch id is neat. The keyboard sucks though as does the price.

So i'm a bit conflicted. Like its not horrible but...meh

Price is no way of an issue. My 2013 rMBP was more expensive than my 2016 MacBook Pro.
[doublepost=1506688033][/doublepost]
Really good point. I don't want to slam the touch bar...it's just not for me, it fails to impress. It's in light of the lack of any significant progress that the touch bar seems to be the Apple Watch embedded in the Mac. Just a kitch-y thing, really. Perceptually less purposeful and more gimmicky.

I have used the touch bar more in the last few months than I have used the function keys in years. I probably feel the same way you do when I look at touch screen laptops. They are absolutely useless. I actually find the touch bar a much better idea than a full touch screen.
 

Hater

macrumors 6502a
Sep 20, 2017
898
885
Edinburgh, Scotland
Its funny how different people can see things differently. In my opinion, the new MBPs is the most visionary product Apple has released in the last half of decade and 100% in spirit of Steve Jobs.

Complete disagreement, a "Pro" laptop that has everything soldered, a touchbar that you need custom macros to use like the F keys and you can't even run decent storage. It's not a Pro laptop at all, go look at the PowerBook line and compare. The MBP line officially lost its way once the Retina came out.
 

tkermit

macrumors 68040
Feb 20, 2004
3,586
2,921
The MBP line officially lost its way once the Retina came out.

It is sad what we've lost in genuinely useful functionality over the years. A lot of the little touches that made you smile at the thoughtfulness of the designers have been lost. At the same time new MacBook Pros have
become more expensive than ever. All gone:

- Sleep light / Power indicator
- Battery Level Indicator
- Magsafe
- Charging Light
- Display (coating) that doesn't develop stains
- IR receiver
- Removable battery
- Upgradable RAM
- Upgradable Storage
- Room for optibay / second hard drive
- Keyboard with sensible amount of key travel
- Full-size USB-A ports (still in use *everywhere*)
- SD-card slot
- Ethernet
- Optical Digital-Audio out
- Optical Digital-Audio in

There may be actually more that I can't think of right now. And it gets worse with every iteration.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,138
7,112
Complete disagreement, a "Pro" laptop that has everything soldered, a touchbar that you need custom macros to use like the F keys and you can't even run decent storage. It's not a Pro laptop at all, go look at the PowerBook line and compare. The MBP line officially lost its way once the Retina came out.

Soldered argument needs to stop. Professional does not always mean computer enthusiast. I get my systems to perform work, not to open them up and play around inside the system. If it becomes an issue and I need a more powerful system later, I will buy a replacement. I will not open up my computer that I depend on paying for my bills and food and work on it myself. I would get a new one which will have new hardware warranty.

Can't even run decent storage? What does this mean? I can connect any of my external hard drives, or my Drobo to my 2016 Macbook Pro. USB-C is just a connector type. I got several USB-A and USB-B to USB-C cables from MonoPrice at $2.99 each.

Single use ports are dead. I find them absolutely irritating. These USB-C ports can be used for anything from video, to data, to power.
 
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aevan

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2015
4,532
7,227
Serbia
Complete disagreement, a "Pro" laptop that has everything soldered, a touchbar that you need custom macros to use like the F keys and you can't even run decent storage. It's not a Pro laptop at all, go look at the PowerBook line and compare. The MBP line officially lost its way once the Retina came out.

Because Steve Jobs was all about unsoldered, self-repairable products.... Yeah, right.

Pro is a relative term - what's 'pro' to your needs may be wrong for mine, and vice versa.
 
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Hater

macrumors 6502a
Sep 20, 2017
898
885
Edinburgh, Scotland
Soldered argument needs to stop. Professional does not always mean computer enthusiast. I get my systems to perform work, not to open them up and play around inside the system. If it becomes an issue and I need a more powerful system later, I will buy a replacement. I will not open up my computer that I depend on paying for my bills and food and work on it myself. I would get a new one which will have new hardware warranty.

Can't even run decent storage? What does this mean? I can connect any of my external hard drives, or my Drobo to my 2016 Macbook Pro. USB-C is just a connector type. I got several USB-A and USB-B to USB-C cables from MonoPrice at $2.99 each.

Single use ports are dead. I find them absolutely irritating. These USB-C ports can be used for anything from video, to data, to power.

Yeah, that's great and all if you're a single entity at home doing whatever, but if you're working in the commercial sector you have a support contract. You know why soldered boards are the devil? Because when something fails, you can't replace something and keep on going, the entire system needs to be replaced. This creates a problem in your workflows, makes everything less redundant and is all in all a terrible idea for any kind of commercial/enterprise system.

Storage, onboard storage. We run scratch drives. All professional media suites do. We can't always run batch jobs off the network, especially not for the smaller jobs when the batch processing systems are off rendering something large.

These are Pro machines, not MacBook Airs for diddling around making cute icons in Illustrator or whatever.
[doublepost=1506692015][/doublepost]
Because Steve Jobs was all about unsoldered, self-repairable products.... Yeah, right.

Pro is a relative term - what's 'pro' to your needs may be wrong for mine, and vice versa.

Steve was into whatever market would make him money, like any businessman is. The rise of the POWER architecture and the gains in throughput meant that design business was Apple's main focus all through the turn of the century, that even resulted in really robust and easy to service designs culminating in the X-Serve and G5 PowerMac.

The switch to Intel killed any gains to be had by POWER, the success of the iPod and eventually the iPhone put Apple into peoples homes rather than studios, and hence the Pro line has been slowly watered down into the mundane crap that it is today, Pro grade gear for the Professional Facebooker.
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
Love them or hate them, these are EXACTLY the Macbooks Steve's Apple would've made, right down to the price. He would've presented them better, that's all. If you don't see it, you're projecting your wishes into a (wrong) fantasy of a man who is no longer with us.

Its funny how different people can see things differently. In my opinion, the new MBPs is the most visionary product Apple has released in the last half of decade and 100% in spirit of Steve Jobs.

We've certainly seen our fair share of differences, however your both on the money. New MBP is exactly what Steve Jobs would have presented and released, maybe not the Touch Bar the rest I believe would stand. I even remember Steve Jobs openly stating, that as soon as he could remove dGPU's from portable Mac's he would as he saw them as little more than a necessary evil (likely technically & business).

Lets be straight, the new MBP has some issues, as has many of it's predecessors, Apple's approach is different and that has also been the big draw, being frequently the inverse of the PC OEMs. Apple's "locked down, locked in" approach is quintessentially Steve Jobs, with him always vehemently against the users hands in the case so to speak.

On the flip it's infuriating for some of us as the new MBP is now too compromised for our needs. It would be great if Apple did bring a larger more flexible MPB to market, equally I don't see that happening as the user base simply doesn't exist, not is it a growing market for Apple. Professional's will if opportunity allows always pick the best hardware for the job, be it Apple, PC OEM, or Linux.

Apple has changed, and Apple had to change no doubts about that, especially with the runaway success of the iPhone. As to whether we all like that change is another matter. Apple has to answer to it's shareholders and is certainly delivering. I don't personally care for the way Apple presents itself today, however one cannot discount the success of the company under the current management.

The Mac remains to be significant business, equally very far from Apple's priority with IOS devices, services and highly likely upcoming devices being ahead of the line. IMHO Apple's current limited resurgence with the Mac was due to the extremely negative and to some extents protective stance regarding the Mac amongst the tech press. I suspect that Apple's view of personal computing is very different to ours, equally as Apple has found the legacy the Mac is not easily buried quite so soon :)

Q-6
 
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TonyK

macrumors 65816
May 24, 2009
1,032
148
Steve Jobs embraced the future. NeXT did away with 3.5 disk drives and that carried over to Apple when Jobs returned. Get rid of the old. Drag the user base kicking and screaming into the future. Lose some customers if need be but keep pushing forward.

No, I'm not an original Apple fanboy. Not even close. Until 2008 I was a solid Windows user but then Microsoft stumbled again, as they had so many times before. Being forced to upgrade both hardware and software it came to me a platform change might be welcomed at home. My wife was already using a Mac and that meant I had to be in both Windows and Mac.

Nine years later here we are. I'm not a fan of the touch bar and when buying my new laptop, went with a 2015 purchased new from B&H. In a year or two, if I were making the decision, it would likely go different because the ecosystem for USB-C has grown where 4 and 5 months ago people were still waiting for docking stations to ship.

Not sure how the new phones leave me feeling. The iPhone 8 is more to my liking than iPhone X but we'll see when the X is actually delivered. :)
 

PhoneI

macrumors 68000
Mar 7, 2008
1,629
619
No it didn’t. The signal dropped when you held in a tight gorilla grip covering the outside antenna. “Look, I’m completely covering the antenna and it doesn’t get a signal!!! WOW Apple really messed up!!!” Just like you did here, this has continuously been misrepresented.

In other news, eggs break if you drop them. Water pours if you tip over a full glass. android lovers spend more time on Macrumors than any android board...

Um, the CEO of the company called a press conference and told the world he was giving away free bumper cases to everyone. That aint normal stuff.
 

PBz

macrumors 68030
Nov 3, 2005
2,616
1,577
SoCal
Y’all know I’ve had my issues with 2016/2017 MBP...mainly keyboard. I’ve officially gone back to 2015 model for foreseeable future. Absolutely no faith in reliability of 2016/2017 MBPs.
 
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burgman

macrumors 68030
Sep 24, 2013
2,797
2,383
There would be heads rolling for the team that came up with these new macbook pro's in apples HQ if steve was there.
Hint, you never met upper Apple management, you never met Steve Jobs, so stop spinning fantasy dreams about what your mental Steve would do the real world.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
Y’all know I’ve had my issues with 2016/2017 MBP...mainly keyboard. I’ve officially gone back to 2015 model for foreseeable future. Absolutely no faith in reliability of 2016/2017 MBPs.

Tried both the 13" & 15" from 16/17 all had inconsistent keyboards, all went back. IMHO fundamentally the design is flawed, and brought to market for the wrong reasons thinner versus an enhanced typing experience. 28 months with Apple's Retina MacBook and have grown to loath the typing experience; initially I liked the click, however as time passes it simply "gets old" bottom line it's a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist.

The MacBook's replacement is an equally thin & light, yet the keyboard is significantly better having reasonable travel and good feedback to the user. Truthfully it's simply ludicrous that the keyboard is such an issue in 2017, it's like a $3K notebook with a $2 keyboard, how Apple's execs fail to see this is beyond me, other companies are getting it right...

Only Apple knows the accurate failure rate, equally the forums were frequently active regarding the MBP thermals and dGPU, since the new design has been released they are all lit up with keyboard issues. Bottom line it's a poor keyboard, badly executed, if these extremely short throw keyboards were of benefit to the typing experience professorial typists would be using them as opposed to mechanical keyboards, they are not, and for good reason.

Apple needs to stop believing it's own BS, get back to producing hardware that people actually want and enjoy, that can also deliver in the face of the competition. Previously the Mac was a very unified product across all lines, today it's all over the place...

Q-6
 

bopajuice

Suspended
Mar 22, 2016
1,571
4,348
Dark side of the moon
Not an easy read for the Apple fanboys. Both articles bring up some very good points. It seems to boil down to Jobs being a creative CEO, who listened to his employees, and Cook being an executive who listens to other executives and managers to decide where Apple will go. No vision. Just corporate BS. Profits will continue for a time, and then the company will become stale. Sorry, but eventually Apple will run out of gimmicks instead of listening to their employees who were partly responsible for the success of Apple under Steve Jobs in the first place.
 

aevan

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2015
4,532
7,227
Serbia
We've certainly see our fair share of differences, however your both on the money. New MBP is exactly what Steve Jobs would have presented and released, maybe not the Touch Bar the rest I believe would stand. I even remember Steve Jobs openly stating, that as soon as he could remove dGPU's from portable Mac's he would as he saw them as little more than a necessary evil (likely technically & business).

Lets be straight, the new MBP has some issues, as has many of it's predecessors, Apple's approach is different and that has also been the big draw, being frequently the inverse of the PC OEMs. Apple's "locked down, locked in" approach is quintessentially Steve Jobs, with him always vehemently against the users hands in the case so to speak.

On the flip it's infuriating for some of us as the new MBP is now too compromised for our needs. It would be great if Apple did bring a larger more flexible MPB to market, equally I don't see that happening as the user base simply doesn't exist, not is it a growing market for Apple. Professional's will if opportunity allows always pick the best hardware for the job, be it Apple, PC OEM, or Linux.

Apple has changed, and Apple had to change no doubts about that, especially with the runaway success of the iPhone. As to whether we all like that change is another matter. Apple has to answer to it's shareholders and is certainly delivering. I don't personally care for the way Apple presets itself today, however one cannot discount the success of the company under the current management.

The Mac remains to be significant business, equally very far from Apple's priority with IOS devices, services and highly likely upcoming devices being ahead of the line. IMHO Apple's current limited resurgence with the Mac was due to the extremely negative and to some extents protective stance regarding the Mac amongst the tech press. I suspect that Apple's view of personal computing is very different to ours, equally as Apple has found the legacy the Mac is not easily buried quite so soon :)

Q-6

Great comment, thanks for writing this. It was a pleasure to read.
[doublepost=1506771980][/doublepost]
Not an easy read for the Apple fanboys. Both articles bring up some very good points. It seems to boil down to Jobs being a creative CEO, who listened to his employees, and Cook being an executive who listens to other executives and managers to decide where Apple will go. No vision.

Thinking of Cook as a CEO with no vision is extremely narrowminded. As @Queen6 said - you don’t have to like their decisions, and they may or may not be wrong - but they are clearly the result of a very focused and strong vision - of what Apple considers modern computing and life augmenting technology.

Everyone who claims Apple of today doesn’t have vision is either someone looking for clicks, or someone who confuses personal taste and wishes with the direction of a big company.

And, I feel the need to emphasize this, this doesn’t mean their decisions are right or that you are somehow wrong for not liking them. It’s not about fanboys or critics. It’s objectively wrong to claim Cook and Apple don’t have a very thought-out vision.
 
Last edited:
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bopajuice

Suspended
Mar 22, 2016
1,571
4,348
Dark side of the moon
Great comment, thanks for writing this. It was a pleasure to read.
[doublepost=1506771980][/doublepost]

Thinking of Cook as a CEO with no vision is extremely narrowminded. As @Queen6 said - you don’t have to like their decisions, and they may or may not be wrong - but they are clearly the result of a very focused and strong vision - of what Apple considers modern computing and life augmenting technology.

Everyone who claims Apple of today doesn’t have vision is either someone looking for clicks, or someone who confuses personal taste and wishes with the direction of a big company.

And, I feel the need to emphasize this, this doesn’t mean their decisions are right or that you are somehow wrong for not liking them. It’s not about fanboys or critics. It’s objectively wrong to claim Cook and Apple don’t have a very thought-out vision.

Exactly the opposite of narrow-minded. I base my opinion on comments from the people who were there. I base my comments after reading stories of former Apple employees who left the company. They are the ones who said Cook is a CEO first and foremost, has made lots of money, but the culture at Apple has changed from open discussions of ideas under Steve Jobs, to keep your head down and your mouth shut and do your job under Cook. Whether it's true or not I have no idea. Just my opinion.
 

smallcoffee

macrumors 68000
Oct 15, 2014
1,667
2,208
North America
This whole cult of "What Would Steve Do?" is very annoying and tiresome. This forum, and in particular this subforum, freak out over the tiniest little change as though there are a bunch of people sitting around a room saying "hmm how can we ruin Steve Job's Apple now that he can't stop us".

The TouchBar is fine. The problem is that people here don't like any change. The keyboard is actually superior, and the move to USB-C is the right move. But alas, it's change, so you all don't like it. You're scared that Apple will ruin the best laptop series in history and so any change to that is treated with hostility.

The MacBook Pro was stagnating. Same design, same look, same crappy keyboard, same trackpad size, same color, for like 5 years.

It's important to realize that over time design will change. Even if it's not a great change, sales will tell the company which way to go. Apple absolutely reads these forums for feedback and to see what people say about their products. But you guys/gals need to calm down with the rhetoric and spend more time talking about features, accessories, and how to do new and cool things with your MacBook Pro. Spend less time having flamewars about the stupid keyboard and Touch Bar.
 
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tkermit

macrumors 68040
Feb 20, 2004
3,586
2,921
The MacBook Pro was stagnating. Same design, same look, same crappy keyboard, same trackpad size, same color, for like 5 years.
No offense, but...what the hell are you talking about? Who ever complained about the previous keyboard? I only ever heard people raving about it. And what was the issue with the previous trackpad size? Seemed pretty close to perfect to me, certainly never led to any erroneous, accidental touches in my case and large enough to comfortably perform all of the supported gestures.
 
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smallcoffee

macrumors 68000
Oct 15, 2014
1,667
2,208
North America
No offense, but...what the hell are you talking about? Who ever complained about the previous keyboard? I only ever heard people raving about it. And what was the issue with the previous trackpad size? Seemed pretty close to perfect to me, certainly never led to any erroneous, accidental touches in my case and large enough to comfortably perform all of the supported gestures.

I'm not going to get into a debate about it here. I use both a 2015 and 2016 every day.
 
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