Apple M1 VP9/AV1 decoding?

[KALLT]

Now that M2 is coming, will you guys be testing if M2 has AV1 hardware decoder?
Has there been any speculation if apple added AV1 decoder to M2 yet?

This question interests me too. Sadly, from what I found online so far there is no hardware-accelerated decoder in M2’s media engine.

Apple recently updated the macOS 13 developer APIs for Xcode 14 beta 2 and this appeared: kCMVideoCodecType_AV1. This indicates that Apple’s video decoders will support AV1, but I have not found any other information about it yet.

 

[nquinn]

Anyone run any power usage tests with 4k/60fps AV1 on M1 Pro?

I'm trying to find some on youtube, but I think I was still only seeing around 12-15w usage. I don't really care about 8k.

 

[Captain_Mac]

Hopefully support is just waiting on the software side and hardware support is already there for Apple Silicon (just as with HEVC a few years ago, when Apple added support with the High Sierra update).
That would make AS Macs much more future proof, as AV1 will be mainstream 5-10 years from now.

 

[EugW]

Hopefully support is just waiting on the software side and hardware support is already there for Apple Silicon (just as with HEVC a few years ago, when Apple added support with the High Sierra update).
That would make AS Macs much more future proof, as AV1 will be mainstream 5-10 years from now.

The difference with HEVC is we knew the hardware support was there. I actually waited years for HEVC hardware support before buying both a 2017 iMac and a 2017 MacBook. We didn’t get actual OS X support until later but we predicted it. In contrast, there is no way to tell with AV1 and Apple Silicon.

That said, I’m not as concerned with AV1 and Apple Silicon. Back in 2015 no consumer machine could play back 4K 10-bit HDR HEVC cleanly in software. In contrast, all Apple Silicon machines can playback 4K AV1 cleanly in software. Like some others here, I don’t care about 8K.

 

[Captain_Mac]

The difference with HEVC is we knew the hardware support was there. I actually waited years for HEVC hardware support before buying both a 2017 iMac and a 2017 MacBook. We didn’t get actual OS X support until later but we predicted it. In contrast, there is no way to tell with AV1 and Apple Silicon.

That said, I’m not as concerned with AV1 and Apple Silicon. Back in 2015 no consumer machine could play back 4K 10-bit HDR HEVC cleanly in software. In contrast, all Apple Silicon machines can playback 4K AV1 cleanly in software. Like some others here, I don’t care about 8K.

Well yes but software decoding could ruin the laptop’s excelent battery life.
I’m hoping hardware support is there and we just don’t know. Otherwise it would be disappointing…

 

[EugW]

Well yes but software decoding could ruin the laptop’s excelent battery life.
I’m hoping hardware support is there and we just don’t know. Otherwise it would be disappointing…

Full disclosure: I'm biased because I'm not buying another Mac laptop. My next purchase will be a Mac mini. Also, I don't watch much 4K YouTube, and otherwise for the time being, AV1 isn't really of much use to me.

In fact, I think I'll give my 2017 MacBook to my kid, and then go laptop-less going forward. Instead, I will purchase an iPad Pro or iPad Air with Magic Keyboard, but I'm waiting for OLED so I won't be buying that anytime soon anyway. 2024? Until then, I'll continue to use my 2017 iPad Pro with Smart Keyboard.

If you think you need AV1 in the near term, then yes, it matters for your buying choices, but you have no way of knowing right now. However, in my case, I just don't really care that much. AV1 is a very, very different situation for me than HEVC was. Back in 2016 I knew I'd need HEVC shortly. In 2022 for AV1, not so much. Somehow I'm not convinced that Apple is as gung ho about AV1 in the near term. For example, I just don't see Apple implementing AV1 video capture on its iPhones anytime soon.

 

[Captain_Mac]

Full disclosure: I'm biased because I'm not buying another Mac laptop. My next purchase will be a Mac mini. Also, I don't watch much 4K YouTube, and otherwise for the time being, AV1 isn't really of much use to me.

In fact, I think I'll give my 2017 MacBook to my kid, and then go laptop-less going forward. Instead, I will purchase an iPad Pro or iPad Air with Magic Keyboard, but I'm waiting for OLED so I won't be buying that anytime soon anyway. 2024? Until then, I'll continue to use my 2017 iPad Pro with Smart Keyboard.

If you think you need AV1 in the near term, then yes, it matters for your buying choices, but you have no way of knowing right now. However, in my case, I just don't really care that much. AV1 is a very, very different situation for me than HEVC was. Back in 2016 I knew I'd need HEVC shortly. In 2022 for AV1, not so much. Somehow I'm not convinced that Apple is as gung ho about AV1 in the near term. For example, I just don't see Apple implementing AV1 video capture on its iPhones anytime soon.

In my case it matters because I'm about to upgrade all my devices, Mac, iPhone and iPad. All of them are 5+ years old, Mid-2012 13' MBP, iPad 5th generation and iPhone 7. I like to make what I believe is a good investment and then use the devices for as long as possible, and they are on the end of the line in terms of software support. So I'm waiting for the iPhone 14 Pro, iPad Pro M2 and MacBook Pro 14' M2 Pro (yes I know, my wallet isn't liking the idea very much )
That's why it matters so much for me. In 5 years I see Youtube and Netflix wanting to change the preferred Codec to AV1 and of course hardware support would be really nice to have. Apple was one of the companies involved in creating AV1, and among other benefits, they don't have to pay for licensing to use the Codec as they have with H.264 and H.265.
Another thing in my mind is future software support from Apple. For example Sidecar was only made available for devices that supported hardware decoding for HEVC. And they tend to find some odd reasons to chop support from newer OS versions. So having AV1 support is kind of a guarantee that I'll get whatever features Apple brings to their OS's

 

[nquinn]

In fact, I think I'll give my 2017 MacBook to my kid, and then go laptop-less going forward. Instead, I will purchase an iPad Pro or iPad Air with Magic Keyboard, but I'm waiting for OLED so I won't be buying that anytime soon anyway. 2024? Until then, I'll continue to use my 2017 iPad Pro with Smart Keyboard.

I'd strongly consider selling that 2017 macbook before the keyboard fails and it is a $700 repair. Not to mention dropping of support from intel and macOS as well. It's just a ticking time bomb and will be worth nothing unless you specifically have an intel need.

Go get the $300 or whatever you can get for it and put it towards a cheap macbook m1 air on sale.

 

[EugW]

I'd strongly consider selling that 2017 macbook before the keyboard fails and it is a $700 repair. Not to mention dropping of support from intel and macOS as well. It's just a ticking time bomb and will be worth nothing unless you specifically have an intel need.

Go get the $300 or whatever you can get for it and put it towards a cheap macbook m1 air on sale.

Nah. I have no desire to spend $1000 or whatever on a new MacBook Air as I don't have much use for it. My kid can use the 2017 MacBook until it dies. (The Airs don't often go on sale here, probably because Amazon.ca doesn't sell them.)

Plus, it gets Ventura. That means it will have the very latest macOS until 2023, and then OS updates until 2025. Even if only lasts 2 years, that's not bad for say the $300 I gave up. And the fact that I don't have to deal with Kijiji idiots trying to sell it is a major bonus.

 

[Gelam]

This question interests me too. Sadly, from what I found online so far there is no hardware-accelerated decoder in M2’s media engine.

Apple recently updated the macOS 13 developer APIs for Xcode 14 beta 2 and this appeared: kCMVideoCodecType_AV1. This indicates that Apple’s video decoders will support AV1, but I have not found any other information about it yet.

Ah I saw that API too. Really hope M2 will have it!

 

[nquinn]

Nah. I have no desire to spend $1000 or whatever on a new MacBook Air as I don't have much use for it. My kid can use the 2017 MacBook until it dies. (The Airs don't often go on sale here, probably because Amazon.ca doesn't sell them.)

Plus, it gets Ventura. That means it will have the very latest macOS until 2023, and then OS updates until 2025. Even if only lasts 2 years, that's not bad for say the $300 I gave up. And the fact that I don't have to deal with Kijiji idiots trying to sell it is a major bonus.

Fair enough, def lucky it caught Ventura which helps justify it. Just try to have the kid always avoid food & wash hands when using it to keep that keyboard clean.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Fair enough, def lucky it caught Ventura which helps justify it. Just try to have the kid always avoid food & wash hands when using it to keep that keyboard clean.

These have worked well for me on MacBooks with the butterfly keys.

UPPERCASE Premium Keyboard Protector for MacBook 12"(UPP-PKBC-MB12)

Made with Premium Thermal plastic Polyurethane (not silicone), this keyboard cover provides unobstructed protection for your MacBook 12" keyboard against spills, dust and other contaminants.

www.amazon.com

 

[EugW]

Fair enough, def lucky it caught Ventura which helps justify it.

Not really lucky, as it was definitely expected to get Ventura.

BTW, I specifically waited for that model before buying, for three reasons:

1) Improved keyboard. The 2015 one sucked. The 2017 isn't exactly good, but it sucks less.
2) Faster performance. The 2015 one was noticeably slow. The 2017 one was adequate.
3) Hardware HEVC acceleration.

These have worked well for me on MacBooks with the butterfly keys.

UPPERCASE Premium Keyboard Protector for MacBook 12"(UPP-PKBC-MB12)

Made with Premium Thermal plastic Polyurethane (not silicone), this keyboard cover provides unobstructed protection for your MacBook 12" keyboard against spills, dust and other contaminants.

www.amazon.com

I've always disliked those types of things, but it might be good for the kid. Thanks, I will look into those again.

 

[nquinn]

These have worked well for me on MacBooks with the butterfly keys.

UPPERCASE Premium Keyboard Protector for MacBook 12"(UPP-PKBC-MB12)

Made with Premium Thermal plastic Polyurethane (not silicone), this keyboard cover provides unobstructed protection for your MacBook 12" keyboard against spills, dust and other contaminants.

www.amazon.com

Could be OK while in use but i'd never have that on and then close the screen. Way too tight of tolerances.

 

[nquinn]

Not really lucky, as it was definitely expected to get Ventura.

BTW, I specifically waited for that model before buying, for three reasons:

1) Improved keyboard. The 2015 one sucked. The 2017 isn't exactly good, but it sucks less.
2) Faster performance. The 2015 one was noticeably slow. The 2017 one was adequate.
3) Hardware HEVC acceleration.


I've always disliked those types of things, but it might be good for the kid. Thanks, I will look into those again.

Ya, on intel HEVC/VP9 decode was a BIG deal otherwise those machines ran really hot with simple video playback.
I personally loved the 2015 keyboard and hated the butterfly 2016-2018 but that's personal preference. It definitely was more reliable - that's not really debatable.

I'm somewhat relieved that M1 / M1 Pro actually handles VP9 and AV1 playback with minimal heat/fans/power draw despite not having true hardware decode. Not sure how they manage it! Was super hesitant and pissed when they came out and didn't announce that support.

 

[mr_roboto]

I'm somewhat relieved that M1 / M1 Pro actually handles VP9 and AV1 playback with minimal heat/fans/power draw despite not having true hardware decode. Not sure how they manage it! Was super hesitant and pissed when they came out and didn't announce that support.

M1 cpu cores, and the SoC as a whole, are profoundly more energy efficient than the Intel silicon they replaced. Software decode doesn't hurt as much when a 1-thread load translates to about 5 watts instead of 25 or more.

The other thing is that "hardware" decoders often do a bunch of the work on one or more embedded CPU cores with customized ISAs tailored to video decoding. Sometimes that makes it's possible to support a new codec by updating firmware. I dunno if Apple's decoders are flexible in that way, or whether they've done it in this case, but it is a possibility.

 

[galad]

That's now how it works. Unless there is already an hardware av1 decoder in the SoC, you can't simply "update the firmware", the hardware is not that flexible.
And it makes no sense to decode AV1 in software when there is a HEVC version of the video available, unless you really want Netflix and friends to save a bunch money on bandwidth. Because probably they will use a lower bitrate to get the same quality target as the HEVC or H264 version instead of improving the quality. So in the end less costs for them, more heat and energy costs for you.

Anyway, there are good chances M2 has already got an hardware av1 decoder, it's just not hooked up, and if not M2 then the next SoC will have one.

 

[nquinn]

That's now how it works. Unless there is already an hardware av1 decoder in the SoC, you can't simply "update the firmware", the hardware is not that flexible.
And it makes no sense to decode AV1 in software when there is a HEVC version of the video available, unless you really want Netflix and friends to save a bunch money on bandwidth. Because probably they will use a lower bitrate to get the same quality target as the HEVC or H264 version instead of improving the quality. So in the end less costs for them, more heat and energy costs for you.

Anyway, there are good chances M2 has already got an hardware av1 decoder, it's just not hooked up, and if not M2 then the next SoC will have one.

Right, AV1 for home laptop users doesn't matter much because of better bandwidth (unlimited or high limits). If it meant higher quality (rather than file size savings) at the same resolution it could be nice though. Of course providers are probably looking for bandwidth savings though and not an increase in quality.

AV1 seems most useful to me for cellular streaming devices that could maybe save another 25% of file size streaming at the same resolution. I'm so sick and tired of these tiny cellular plan limits. WAY faster speeds and yet they still want to give you 5gb per person per month.

 

[EugW]

Right, AV1 for home laptop users doesn't matter much because of better bandwidth (unlimited or high limits). If it meant higher quality (rather than file size savings) at the same resolution it could be nice though. Of course providers are probably looking for bandwidth savings though and not an increase in quality.

AV1 seems most useful to me for cellular streaming devices that could maybe save another 25% of file size streaming at the same resolution. I'm so sick and tired of these tiny cellular plan limits. WAY faster speeds and yet they still want to give you 5gb per person per month.

Ah I see where you are coming from now.

I typically don't stream full length shows/movies off my iPhone (on the iPhone or tethered), but I have 25 GB anyway, which becomes unlimited after 25 GB but at a lower bitrate. And even if I did, it wouldn't matter - at least for the time being - because they're not AV1. BTW, IIRC, Netflix AV1 isn't even HDR AFAIK in 2022, so IMO there's not much point to it for the end user.

 

[Gelam]

Not really lucky, as it was definitely expected to get Ventura.

BTW, I specifically waited for that model before buying, for three reasons:

1) Improved keyboard. The 2015 one sucked. The 2017 isn't exactly good, but it sucks less.
2) Faster performance. The 2015 one was noticeably slow. The 2017 one was adequate.
3) Hardware HEVC acceleration.


I've always disliked those types of things, but it might be good for the kid. Thanks, I will look into those again.

I use those keyboard protector like a religion. I want to keep the keyboard as pristine as new.
For some reason apple keyboards always smoothen out and become shiny without the protector.

 

[nquinn]

I use those keyboard protector like a religion. I want to keep the keyboard as pristine as new.
For some reason apple keyboards always smoothen out and become shiny without the protector.

Read up about people closing their lids with the protector on though. It can damage screen. Suggest you remove it before closing.

Even apple gives guidance on this:

Using a camera cover, palm rest, or keyboard cover on a Mac notebook - Apple Support

If you use a camera cover, palm rest cover, or keyboard cover with your Mac notebook, remove the cover before closing your display to prevent damage to your display.

support.apple.com

 

[Gelam]

Read up about people closing their lids with the protector on though. It can damage screen. Suggest you remove it before closing.

Even apple gives guidance on this:

Using a camera cover, palm rest, or keyboard cover on a Mac notebook - Apple Support

If you use a camera cover, palm rest cover, or keyboard cover with your Mac notebook, remove the cover before closing your display to prevent damage to your display.

support.apple.com

I have used MacBooks with the keyboard protector always on even when closing for almost 10 years. None of the screen have become damaged yet. Maybe because I use the Moshi one which is ultra thin.

But I notice sometimes it leaves stains on the display and can be wiped out. So it is good advice to remove before closing when can yes.

 

[nquinn]

I have used MacBooks with the keyboard protector always on even when closing for almost 10 years. None of the screen have become damaged yet. Maybe because I use the Moshi one which is ultra thin.

But I notice sometimes it leaves stains on the display and can be wiped out. So it is good advice to remove before closing when can yes.

If you close carefully might not be too bad. I'm guessing it could get worse if you start carrying around the laptop and your hand pinches it closed more tightly/etc.

 

[Gelam]

If you close carefully might not be too bad. I'm guessing it could get worse if you start carrying around the laptop and your hand pinches it closed more tightly/etc.

I will be careful and baby the laptop

 

[Piipperi]

Do we still have any information about do M1-chips have AV1 hardware decoding? What about the new A16?
Sure, Apple may not have yet added the support for it in their native applications like Safari, however, do we have any idea if the hardware is there for it?

For example, for a long ass time Intel has had VP9 decoding and encoding but it took years for Apple to give us drivers that support HW VP9 on Intel platform (fun fact: they still don't have, and will never on AMD hardware according to a response I got to a Feedback I sent them).

It seems strange for Apple to not have AV1 HW decoding in 2022 chips like the A16, considering Intel has had it since 11th Gen (2021) and AMD has had it since Navi 21 (2020)