Apple Murdered "Shake" > Where is Phenomenon? 3D / Foundry?

[AppleFoundry]

What are the alternatives to Foundry (Nuke/Katana/Mari, etc.) on Mac?

Foundry are ditching Mac, like Apple disgracefully ditched "Shake"!

3D is going to explode in the near future, with VR/metaverse, Indie/home movie producers, etc.

These new high performance Macs are great and all but where is Phenomenon that was supposed to replace Shake?

What are the Mac alternatives to industry standard Nuke (that will no longer be supported on Mac ecosystem)?

Apple neglected 'pros', dumped amazing softwares like Shake (WHY DID YOU BUY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Neglected Logic Pro with serious bug that was left for years.

Now Apple is really changing? They realise the massive revolution coming? Extremely powerful machines?

 

[AppleFoundry]

Your favourite movies were likely made using Apple "Shake": Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc.

Can never watch those movies again without thinking about the clearly EVIL people behind this Apple decision. It is a disgrace how they can be so brutal/heartless (to the Shake developers, movie producers).

Extremely poor foresight, now there is a GAPING HOLE left in the Mac ecosystem...

Really disappointed to find all this out.

 

[deconstruct60]

What are the alternatives to Foundry (Nuke/Katana/Mari, etc.) on Mac?

Foundry are ditching Mac, like Apple disgracefully ditched "Shake"!

Errrrrrr, no. Foundry is keeping the software targets that are making substantive money. Apple did something different.

3D is going to explode in the near future, with VR/metaverse, Indie/home movie producers, etc.

These new high performance Macs are great and all but where is Phenomenon that was supposed to replace Shake?

Are you waiting for 'Godot' ?

End of Shake, Phenomenon in 2008?

With the news that Shake 4.1's release brought a $2500 price drop to the popular compositing application, most people seem to have missed a...

www.macrumors.com

If you have been waiting since 2009 then you have got major 'issues'.

The top uprated post on that thread has this clip.

"... Here's something that doesn't get taken into consideration enough when talking about Shake and Apple... The fact is that (whilst it is used on all the big VFX films) all the big VFX companies use the Linux version. All the Shake shots for King Kong and LOTR were done on Linux boxes. Most of these big FX houses have complex data piplines built round Linux scripts, and the OS X version of Shake just isn't an option. Also the Linux version is the one the big boys go with because it is faster... "

The standard Apple modus oprandi is that if they buy a mulitple platform software product they kill off the non Mac (or/and non iOS ) versions either rapidly or over time. (e.g, The darksky API is disappearing. ). [ although Shazam is a corner case. Probably the data mining of the songs matched has upside in Apple Music purchasing and advertising biz. Data mining the users is far less profitable for content creating apps. ].

Apple neglected 'pros', dumped amazing softwares like Shake (WHY DID YOU BUY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE)?

Why? In part, because Steve Jobs was 'full time' CEO of both Apple and Pixar in 2002. There were several projects that had overlap between those two companies that got green lights probably because they were more familar projects than necessarily 100% best thing for Apple.

At some point someone at Apple probably made a pitch on how they would herd the Linux Shake users onto a "better Unix than Linux" Mac OS X. That didn't work out so well even will deals to lower and/or expand licenses to jump to Mac OS X.

Compositing also made its way into more mainstream editors along the way. It is in part why Blackmagic Resolve also has Fusion. " Phenomenon " was supposed to be coupled to Motion. ( and Motion did get updates). Skills and code fragments made transitions.

Neglected Logic Pro with serious bug that was left for years.

Everything significant size has good older bugs that don't get fix. That is a bit of a reach.

Now Apple is really changing? They realise the massive revolution coming? Extremely powerful machines?

Apple is on the path were only Apple GPUs are suppose to matter. That is going to put them at odds with a number of heady duty 3D software packages. Especially where the unit volume and revenue model is for relatively low unit volumes (and high licensing fees. ) .


P.S. Given Apple's typical standard process of making software macOS only buying Foundry would be an extremely dubious way to spend money. If the company is walking away from macOS because it doesn't work ... Apple buying the software rights has a real good chance of really not changing that much. If it is "Apple can buy Foundry with petty cash money and just pass on return on investment" rationale. That doesn't make any sense. Apple has lots of money in part because they usually don't frivolously throw it away.

Apple also has very little interest in relatively low unit volume software. That isn't what they do.

 

[Mr.Blacky]

Why are you ranting about a software, which last release was over 12 years ago? 🤨

 

[AppleFoundry]

It may have been used on Linux but APPLE were the ones who bought it - and dumped it!

I am new to the 3D/VFX industry, a former Apple user, and now find out that the only option is Linux/Windows, despite these new expensive Macs - and it will likely be that way forever, since Apple dumped Shake.

The fact that 'pros' need Linux/Windows and there's never a realistic option on Mac is just another disgrace (clearly it has been possible, just elsewhere than Mac!).

Still after everything you've said, there is no alternative to the industry standard Nuke - which took over since the death of Shake (when Shake was actually "better" than Nuke).

Fusion is no where near as good as Nuke, plus Mari, plus Katana.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Voted no. I learned Modo when it was new and liked it but it has been surpassed.

Shake was a very flaky port from the Linux version and it was a bad idea to buy it.

Foundry's apps, some of which they themselves bought, are numerous and complex to maintain and keep updating. They have a lot of competition too.

There's no point buying this company.

 

[AppleFoundry]

Voted no. I learned Modo when it was new and liked it but it has been surpassed.

Shake was a very flaky port from the Linux version and it was a bad idea to buy it.

Foundry's apps, some of which they themselves bought, are numerous and complex to maintain and keep updating. They have a lot of competition too.

There's no point buying this company.

Fair enough. I haven't even voted myself, as I'm not sure it's a good thing anyway.

Regarding Modo, I'm not really interested in it either but Apple currently have no 3D software - where they have music, video editing, etc. - and 3D is clearly a major part of their future...

But I think Apple is happy with Blender being on Silicon, & Maya should be also, etc.

But I don't see solid competition for Nuke, & Katana & Mari, (CaraVR, etc.), are excellent & valuable assets to add.

Apple has some supposedly 'pro' software. 3D/XR/CGI movie making, game dev is the future.

Too complex for the most valuable company in the world to maintain? Really tho? Imagine the thinking of all these developers, that's why they aren't bothering with Mac anymore. It's all going to Linux...

When Apple releases their VR/AR/XR glasses, I wonder what software(s) they are going to provide to develop for it?

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Too complex for the most valuable company in the world to maintain? Really tho?

If they bought Foundry it wouldn't be cheap and then they have to keep paying the running costs which are very high. They can't just bring everyone to Cupertino. They are based in two cities in UK and also Austin, Texas.

When Apple releases their VR/AR/XR glasses, I wonder what software(s) they are going to provide to develop for it?

3D apps already export the .obj and other 3D formats that are compatible with current Xcode SDKs. Xcode covers everything for third party creative apps to work with. Developing for VR and AR is no different from working with an iPhone. It's just another display with another set of hardware sensors.

 

[MarkC426]

Nuke is embarrassingly overpriced.
Modo is on it's last legs.

When my Mac stopped supporting Shake, I moved to BM Fusion.
Fusion has been around since before Nuke (excluding Digital Domain in-house).

 

[Boil]

If Apple bought Foundry for the express purpose of creating an all-encompassing 3D / DCC software suite...?

 

[AppleFoundry]

Nuke is embarrassingly overpriced.
Modo is on it's last legs.

When my Mac stopped supporting Shake, I moved to BM Fusion.
Fusion has been around since before Nuke (excluding Digital Domain in-house).

Hmm, it's interesting but first thing I searched for "deep compositing" & Fusion doesn't have it?

Other thing was VR is supposedly better in Nuke?

Another thing all the courses are literally Nuke, Nuke, Nuke + Mari & Katana (+ Houdini, etc.). Fusion it's basically Skillshare & online tutorials...

 

[AppleFoundry]

If Apple bought Foundry for the express purpose of creating an all-encompassing 3D / DCC software suite...?

Heck why not? The Foundry prices would drop drastically. We're looking at a different future ahead. Apple could go all in and create something amazing / even better for the future. Imagine the resources they could put into it, in comparison. The market will clearly grow.

 

[jujoje]

There no real point to buying Foundry; I'm pretty sure that the code base for most of their apps is a bit of a mess, particularly on the Mac side (nuke dev lags on MacOS, Mari was cancelled and we're still waiting for the metal viewport the Foundry demo'd back in 2015). So in terms of buying the Foundry, there's no point (and I think most of the people who originally developed Mari/Nuke/Modo have left, so not much of an acquihire either).

There's definitely a space that Apple can, and should do something in (particularly for AR). A node based compositing and tracking system in conjunction with Final Cut would be pretty compelling, particularly if it heavily used ML for tracking, roto and colour correction. A lot of the pieces seem to be there; photogrammetry and lidar for camera projection, system wise usdz/abc/obj support and lens, and camera information via fc.

Hmm, it's interesting but first thing I searched for "deep compositing" & Fusion doesn't have it?

Fusion pretty much dropped the ball when the industry moved to exr; their support for multichannel exr was very late and very slow and, as far as I can tell, they never really support deep compositing.

 

[nickane]

1. The Foundry poached loads of Apple staff after Shake was killed off and revamped the UI to make Nuke more Shake-like for Nuke 5 (or was it 6?) IIRC. What was supposed to become Phenomenon supposedly became carved up into additional features for FCPX and Motion. This was all reported here at the time (c. 2009).

2. All the reasons Apple bought Shake and decided to kill it off mentioned are valid. But I think there was also an element to which Apple thought VFX was going to explode and desktop compositing would become more prevalent. The number of users has certainly exploded, but, if anything the userbase wanted more professional software than Shake, not less, whereas FCPX and other Apple pro apps pivoted more towards the semi-professional market around then. Note that the proliferation of YT content has meant that this is a massive and much less demanding market. Apple's decision to kill off Shake and focus on making FCPX and Motion more accessible has probably paid off, especially when you consider how many devs and CS reps a software like Shake would have needed working on it.

3. The Foundry is one of those VFX companies that will be passed around from VC to VC every few years. Its valuation is now insane. Investors see The Foundry's maintenance model, the lack of competition for Nuke and see a continual revenue stream increasing at a greater rate than inflation: basically the holy grail of investment products. You have to assume that eventually Nuke will move to a subscription model like everything else, but it's hard to see what will force the Foundry's hand on that point right now. Smoke/Flame is almost cheaper now, but it's certainly not winning market share off Nuke. I've never met a Fusion user outside of a web forum. Resolve is massive in studios but I've never heard of anywhere that uses Fusion for anything.

4. If m1pro and m1max macs sell enough, and they probably will, Nuke will eventually support them natively. I'm expecting it around mid-2023, but I honestly have no idea. Check here for updates: https://support.foundry.com/hc/en-u...acOS-Monterey-12-0-and-Apple-silicon-M1-chips Whether or not they support the neural cores with the new AI features in Nuke 13 onwards is another matter. It took aeons for Apple to convince GPU renderers to code for Metal.

5. A lot was said here and elsewhere about Apple buying pro apps and killing them off, but Logic (which was left to languish for long periods) and FCPX are still around. Shake was an anomaly. Apple was a hardware company that now predominantly sells consumer products. They still use software to sell hardware but they're only going to devote as much resources to an app as they expect it to yield in hardware sales. Shake just didn't sell many macs. FCP sold loads. FCPX probably didn't initially, but now does. I imagine investment in Logic wavered for long periods as Apple knows Pro Tool users are often using macs anyway.

 

[jujoje]

3 .... You have to assume that eventually Nuke will move to a subscription model like everything else, but it's hard to see what will force the Foundry's hand on that point right now. Smoke/Flame is almost cheaper now, but it's certainly not winning market share off Nuke. I've never met a Fusion user outside of a web forum.

Fusion was used a fair bit, particularly in TV and Commercials at the time. I think Nuke pretty much killed it in that market (I think it was even cheaper at the time). These days occasionally hear it being used by freelancers and small studios; people who can't justify the extortionate prices of Nuke/NukeX.

In terms of model, feel they'll eventually move to a cloud service with a subscription fee. They did try it a while back but not sure what came of it. Which kind of brings me on to

4. If m1pro and m1max macs sell enough, and they probably will, Nuke will eventually support them natively. I'm expecting it around mid-2023, but I honestly have no idea. Check here for updates: https://support.foundry.com/hc/en-u...acOS-Monterey-12-0-and-Apple-silicon-M1-chips Whether or not they support the neural cores with the new AI features in Nuke 13 onwards is another matter. It took aeons for Apple to convince GPU renderers to code for Metal.

Can't help but feel you're being very optimistic there; pretty much every version of a new feature the Foundry releases goes through two or three versions of being hot garbage before it becomes vaguely usable. The new AI features in Nuke are apparently in the flaming trashcan of brokenness at the moment. I'm sure it will work eventually. On the subject of brokenness, looks like the new hydra viewport in Nuke is entirely missing on macOS....

At the end of the day, as you say, Nuke really needs some competition; there's nothing that really comes close, despite how buggy Nuke has become over time. Probably the closest competitor is Blender, or Natron (although Natron was just…bad last time I checked). Kinda wish SideFX would update COPs (think the last time it was updated was the 90s), so at least there'd be some competition.

As mentioned originally, Apple has all the pieces (hell Preview now has a hydra viewport ), it's just whether they feel it's worth building an app themselves. Not entirely sure they will (and given how linux based VFX is how many people would use it if they did).

 

[AppleFoundry]

Thanks for all the great comments/info^!

I've come to the conclusion that Apple should indeed buy Foundry, as a starting base.

Like all of Apple's Pro products (Logic, FCPX) they have to be kept up to date with hardware developments. No worrying about what anyone else is doing, or whether they think it's worth it for them to update their software. There would be 3D/compositing software available right now for Mx, if Apple had their own software! - & surely that would sell a heck of a lot more new Macs?

Foundry is in a poor state it seems. So Apple could make many improvements. Revamp the business for the better.

Prices would be cheaper for everyone.

I don't see Apple starting from scratch. Although they buy a new company every few weeks.

But damn I love SideFX Houdini - I'd love to see them compete with Foundry also...

/Flame doesn't do Deep Compositing either.

 

[AppleFoundry]

I also believe Apple can sell way more than Foundry. The price being much cheaper, the showcase of what has been created in Nuke (& with Mari, Katana, CaraVR, etc.) is inspiring to everyone.

At an affordable price, like Logic Pro & FCPX, many more would be inspired to learn it, knowing that it is possible to create the movies they love, with their new high powered machines. Give the software some credit for all that it has created for us all.

And the fact that Shake/Apple employees helped build it, is also a sign(?) - for reincarnation...

 

[AppleFoundry]

.

 

[Boil]

Apple needs to buy all the macOS 3D / DCC softwares...

Foundry / SideFX / Maxon / Otoy / all the softwares...!

Then we sit back and wait a few years for the best 3D / DCC software suite EVAH...! ;^p

 

[AppleFoundry]

TBH it makes a lot of sense for all this very expensive software.

People can buy the "3D / DCC Suite" for a much cheaper price & spend their savings on Mac hardware instead.

The software is infinitely copyable so it's just a case of attracting new Mac users/buyers - which will definitely happen if they do!

People will literally be saving thousands on software (that is also expensive yearly fees) - and any current but "Mac is more expensive" arguments go out the window.

It's also a solid future plan - with the market set to explode...

 

[GunStrauss]

It's incredible that Apple can afford to make a car, but not afford to keep a reliable product line for professional users up to date and functional. It's due to self-inflicted damage to their platform that makes developers such as the Foundry not prioritise the platform. I was actually about to buy a Mac Pro (7.1), but I think I'll end up with a new Windows- and Linux-box.

 

[Boil]

It's incredible that Apple can afford to make a car, but not afford to keep a reliable product line for professional users up to date and functional. It's due to self-inflicted damage to their platform that makes developers such as the Foundry not prioritise the platform. I was actually about to buy a Mac Pro (7.1), but I think I'll end up with a new Windows- and Linux-box.

Rumor has one final Intel Mac Pro revision:

• new mobo
• Ice Lake Xeon CPUs
• faster ECC DDR4 RAM @ 3200MT/s
• W7000-series MPX GPUs
• PCIe Gen4

Could make a pretty sweet macOS / Windows / Linux triple-ripple-dipple boxen...?!? ;^p

I predict this is done as a press release right before WWDC 2022, because the focus there will be the new Apple silicon Mac Pro Cube...

 

[GunStrauss]

These CPU's were launched this summer.

A side note: Waiting for Apple hardware to realize certain projects has almost cost my career at times, and made me lose interest in my work. In essence we had no new professional tool for our most basic jobs for a decade. Thats more than 20% of most careers and 1/8th of most life times. It seems like they have no idea how their amateurish behaviour are affecting the livelihood of their customers. And now, why abolish OpenGL? According to Jobs, his goal with technology and Apple was to give people opportunities and enable them to do their best possible work. Now it's turned into a company sabotaging the lives and careers of it's users. It's a variation of the Stockholm syndrom still keeping us in the loop.

 

[aevan]

Foundry are ditching Mac, like Apple disgracefully ditched "Shake"!

Since when? What do you mean "they are ditching Mac"? I know they are testing the M1 version of Modo. Don't know about other apps, but I see no mention of them abandoning the Mac platform for any of their software, including Nuke.

 

[GunStrauss]

Since when? What do you mean "they are ditching Mac"? I know they are testing the M1 version of Modo. Don't know about other apps, but I see no mention of them abandoning the Mac platform for any of their software, including Nuke.

It seems like they are (understandably) selective about what apps to spend time on porting from OpenGL to Metal, understandably...

...not sure where the delusional thread-starter gets the 'ditching Mac' idea from though. Articles on The Foundery website clearly states that they are _not_ ditching macOS.