Apple not the only one down…

[Realityck]

The Mac's are all pretty good but the market for buying computers as a whole has dramatically shifted since COVID and lock downs, the economy has dramatically shifted and a lot of people just don't have extra money like they used to do buying a new Mac or iphone or iPad is a lot harder specially at the price points Apple is selling.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Are you limiting that circumstances to people that had jobs eliminated because of larger companies poor planing on their part after hiring a lot last year? (amazon, google)

Seems like a major assumption you've applied to everyone's buying power since covid to support that. Depending on where you live has a lot more to do with that. Local economy, not using the latest tech.

 

[Technerd108]

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Are you limiting that circumstances to people that had jobs eliminated because of larger companies poor planing on their part after hiring a lot last year? (amazon, google)

Seems like a major assumption you've applied to everyone's buying power since covid to support that. Depending on where you live has a lot more to do with that. Local economy, not using the latest tech.

I am not making assumptions. Buying power across the globe has plummeted. If you read any news articles a lot are mentioning looming recession including Chase CEO.

Inflation is worldwide. Buying power is down across the board. People are paying more for basic supplies which leads to less discretionary spending. It is basic economics.

Sure the ultra rich are not only doing fine but better than ever. Most of the economy is not made of the ultra rich.

Wages have stagnated and not keeping up with inflation according to major news articles. At least hiring is not down yet.

But groceries are up, gas prices are up or at least not down to pre COVID prices, car prices for new cars are up, used car prices are up, interest rates are way up, home prices are still high even with high interest rates even though they have adjusted a little bit from the crazy prices not so long ago. Rent prices in non rent controlled areas are way up. Name any area of the economy where prices are stable or going down???

So wages are steady, but everything costs more which puts a squeeze on the money people have to buy big ticket items and big ticket item cost is up.

I don't know where you live but if you haven't experienced what I am talking about then you must have a lot of money to throw around which is not indicative of most of the population that would be buying a new iPhone, Mac, or iPad.

You can do Google searches to find plenty of articles on any of the points I have made. Plus you can just get some groceries, check your mortgage interest rate, but some gas, try to buy a new or used car and you will understand first hand what I am saying.

It has nothing to do with local economy unless of course you live in a rich local economy that inflation doesn't affect like Beverly Hills, Santa Monica, Bel Air, etc.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Are you limiting that circumstances to people that had jobs eliminated because of larger companies poor planing on their part after hiring a lot last year? (amazon, google)

Seems like a major assumption you've applied to everyone's buying power since covid to support that. Depending on where you live has a lot more to do with that. Local economy, not using the latest tech.

Are you completely unaware there is a cost of living crisis right now and has been since May last year where inflation has soared due to high gas and energy prices? People aren’t indulging in Macs and high end devices like they used to because every essential product like food and fuel has gone through the roof. The chap above has explained it much better than I can, but I am astonished whenever I read someone online oblivious to how huge sectors of our society are struggling to live, let alone spend on luxury purchases.

 

[Realityck]

I am not making assumptions. Buying power across the globe has plummeted. If you read any news articles a lot are mentioning looming recession including Chase CEO.

Inflation is worldwide. Buying power is down across the board. People are paying more for basic supplies which leads to less discretionary spending. It is basic economics.

Sure the ultra rich are not only doing fine but better than ever. Most of the economy is not made of the ultra rich.

Wages have stagnated and not keeping up with inflation according to major news articles. At least hiring is not down yet.

But groceries are up, gas prices are up or at least not down to pre COVID prices, car prices for new cars are up, used car prices are up, interest rates are way up, home prices are still high even with high interest rates even though they have adjusted a little bit from the crazy prices not so long ago.

So wages are steady, but everything costs more which puts a squeeze on the money people have to buy big ticket items and big ticket item cost is up.

I don't know where you live but if you haven't experienced what I am talking about then you must have a lot of money to throw around which is not indicative of most of the population that would be buying a new iPhone, Mac, or iPad.

You can do Google searches to find plenty of articles on any of the points I have made. Plus you can just get some groceries, check your mortgage interest rate, but some gas, try to buy a new or used car and you will understand first hand what I am saying.

It has nothing to do with local economy unless of course you live in a rich local economy that inflation doesn't affect like Beverly Hills, Santa Monica, Bel Air, etc.

Still a lot of assumptions.

Buying power is very dependent on where you live. In one part of the states a dozen eggs is $1.99, another is $6.99. It's the same for gas prices. Also assuming that you are well off to avoid buying power issues is another mistake. Lots of people know how to manage their money and to spend appropriately. If you go out all the time and wonder why you're living from pay check to paycheck, yeah things to add up. The price of Apple devices is up there, still you a number of options that most use, which is foremost buy something a bit older, not the latest. Thats how it works for people that buy phones 14 vs iPhones 13 vs iPhones 12 in this marketplace. Living in the states is not all about being rich but more about managing your money in an environment that doesn't push you out of it.

 

[Realityck]

Are you completely unaware there is a cost of living crisis right now and has been since May last year where inflation has soared due to high gas and energy prices? People aren’t indulging in Macs and high end devices like they used to because every essential product like food and fuel has gone through the roof. The chap above has explained it much better than I can, but I am astonished whenever I read someone online oblivious to how huge sectors of our society are struggling to live, let alone spend on luxury purchases.

I don't live in UK, but I have friends there that we talk, so it's a different world compared to the states. Power bills, everything has gotten expensive comparable. As you say through the roof. But yes it is really different over here than where you are. I can't begin to say if I could tolerate what you are encountering as well. If there is one thing you well know its the game of Apple pricing, this so called if something costs $1000 USD they try to sell if close to 1000 GBP. Yes it's bad when it's actually 1.00 US Dollar = 0.79649782 British Pounds.

 

[Technerd108]

Still a lot of assumptions.

Buying power is very dependent on where you live. In one part of the states a dozen eggs is $1.99, another is $6.99. It's the same for gas prices. Also assuming that you are well off to avoid buying power issues is another mistake. Lots of people know how to manage their money and to spend appropriately. If you go out all the time and wonder why you're living from pay check to paycheck, yeah things to add up. The price of Apple devices is up there, still you a number of options that most use, which is foremost buy something a bit older, not the latest. Thats how it works for people that buy phones 14 vs iPhones 13 vs iPhones 12 in this marketplace. Living in the states is not all about being rich but more about managing your money in an environment that doesn't push you out of it.

I think your response shows a very myopic view and is rather out of touch with reality.

One local economy doesn't drive worldwide sales numbers. General trends in the economy have a much larger impact than small areas where prices may not yet reflect national and international trends.

Budgeting is one thing but most people didn't budget for everything across the board to increase in cost.

A lot of people, I would say the majority live paycheck to paycheck. Frankly I find your comment rather arrogant and elitist in attitude like inflation impacts on people who don't have large savings is related to them not budgeting properly.

Everything is up. Period. There is no debate. If live in a protected bubble then good for you.

There are also a lot of people on fixed incomes who have been deeply adversely affected by the rapid rise in inflation which has been sustained and not temporary.

 

[Warped9]

I noticed they moved this thread to a more suitable forum, which is fine because I wasn’t sure where to post it initially.

 

[JustAnExpat]

The prices of foldable phones are crazy, and even the prices of flagship phones are getting beyond whats reasonable. I can just about part with 1000 euros if the phone will last six years, but thats already a lot. A MacBook Air used to cost the same, and that lasts me ten years. No way that I’m going to pay 1700 euros for a phone.

I can totally foresee a case in the future where I end up switching to a Samsung A-series phone to get a phone with a decent camera and avoid paying 1300+ euros for an iPhone Pro. It all depends on how long that Samsung is going to get supported.

Flagship phones is the most advance phone a company makes. https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/flagship-product

Samsung Galaxy phones are the flagship phones.
Samsung A-series are the "normal phones"

Apple iPhone Pro Max phones are the flagship phones.
Apple iPhone [insert number here] are the "normal phones".

 

[Technerd108]

Flagship phones is the most advance phone a company makes. https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/flagship-product

Samsung Galaxy phones are the flagship phones.
Samsung A-series are the "normal phones"

Apple iPhone Pro Max phones are the flagship phones.
Apple iPhone [insert number here] are the "normal phones".

No you are wrong. iPhone has always been a premium device. The iPhone SE is the normal phone similar to a Samsung a series phone except the a series phone is much better.

iPhone 14 is supposed to be a flagship level device and iPhone regular series 13, 14, etc are the base level of premium flagship phones like a s23 vs s23 ultra.

The problem is that Apple now uses a year old chip in the regular iPhone 14 while the regular s23 doesn't.

A flagship phone is a series of the most advanced phone a company makes like s23, s23 plus and s23 ultra. Similarly the iPhone 14, iPhone 14 Max, iPhone 14 Pro and Pro Max are all iPhone 14 series.

However this year is the first year a regular iPhone has a year old chip meaning there isn't much difference between the iphone 13 and 14. Since Apple still sells the iPhone 13 it is odd anyone would buy the iPhone 14.

If people want the most bang for their buck they will get a Pixel 7 or 7a or and s23 or a54. iPhone doesn't have anything that compares feature wise in this category. Most people like things like 90hz or above displays and don't want to pay $800 or $900 for a phone with a mediocre camera, 60hz display, a notch, and old processor.

 

[Warped9]

There is no way on God’s Earth I will use Android. Not happening.

 

[AL2TEACH]

Maybe Apple hasn't lost their way but they have certainly gone in some wrong directions and dropped the ball. They are not innovating but following. They have segmented to death every product line they have with all the Pro BS instead of just delivering the best in each product category it seems they try to squeeze out as much profit as possible and hold back as many features on purpose for no other reason than to get people to buy up.

All of this starts to piss people off. Jobs is turning in his grave.

I personally would love to see the end of "Pro" phones and tablets. It is ridiculous. Return to offering a simple product line with the best of everything and just charge for the larger size. Get rid of the "air" on MacBook and just have a MacBook and a MacBook Pro. Stop holding back features like Promotion just to push people into a higher cost bracket.

I could go on and on.

There are many reasons for Apples poor sales performance but I think a lot more of it is self inflicted rather than just the economic market factors. More people are going to get fed up if they don't change some of the things I mentioned.

There will always be the die hard Apple fanatics who will empty their pockets gleefully but the rest of us will only take so much.

I state in several forums that Apple needs to stop scamming the customers. You state it so much more eloquently. 😂 tears of joy for your posts.

 

[Technerd108]

There is no way on God’s Earth I will use Android. Not happening.

No one said you had to.

No tech or tech company is perfect and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

It is just the way Apple fans seem to be d over backwards to accept the clearly unacceptable by Apple.

I will call it as I see it no matter if it is Android, iOS, Linux, MacOS, or Windows and the associated hardware that goes with them. You are only as good as the last product you made.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I don't live in UK, but I have friends there that we talk, so it's a different world compared to the states. Power bills, everything has gotten expensive comparable. As you say through the roof. But yes it is really different over here than where you are. I can't begin to say if I could tolerate what you are encountering as well. If there is one thing you well know its the game of Apple pricing, this so called if something costs $1000 USD they try to sell if close to 1000 GBP. Yes it's bad when it's actually 1.00 US Dollar = 0.79649782 British Pounds.

It goes some way to seeing why the tech industry as a whole is seeing a downturn in sales though would you agree? The rest of Europe is also seeing higher costs due to inflation and the US is far enough away from the current conflict to be less affected.

I won’t be buying any current Apple products at the new increased prices and the whole thing has encouraged me to buy a previous years device and save money. These costs are still comparable with what a current device costs in the US, but it’s more reasonable in our market. Devices are also being kept longer and I’m noticing in my circles that people are using older models whether they could afford newer or not. It’s killing the desire to upgrade at the moment and rumours suggest prices are going up again this year.

 

[v0lume4]

There will always be the die hard Apple fanatics who will empty their pockets gleefully but the rest of us will only take so much.

Regrading Apple’s increasingly more aggressive pricing and nickel-and-dining strategies:

”Pigs get fed, hogs get killed,” as my dad always says.

 

[Warped9]

No you are wrong. iPhone has always been a premium device.

A flagship item and a premium item can be two distinctly different things. Yes, the iPhone has always been a premium device, including the SE. But the moment Apple introduced their Pro tier those became Apple’s flagship phones.

In today’s market practically any phone costing $500-$600 and up is going to be a premium device as far as phones are concerned, particularly considering how the vast majority of people use their phones.

Tablets are much the same. Samsung and other companies offer tablets priced below Apple’s mainstream iPad (currently 9th gen). Compared to those the regular iPad is considered a premium device, but it also offers more value, more bang-for-the-buck than it’s lower and equivalently priced competitors. If the 10th Gen iPad were priced better it would be more appealing. Same with the Mini which is absurdly priced. Air and Pro tiers are definitely premium items for most people, but the Pro line are definitely Apple’s flagship tablets.

The MacBook Pros are certainly Apple’s flagship laptops even though the MacBook Air is far more popular and far more attractively priced. But all Apple computers, desktop and laptop, are premium devices. I’d say most people people looking for a laptop are looking at devices priced about 30-50 percent less than a MacBook Air.

Perception also plays into it. A general perception of many is that Apple devices are premium and costly items. But Airpods are right in the hunt with Bose and other equivalent headphones. Regular Apple Earpods are cheap especially compared to what they were many years ago. And even the M1 MacBook Air, in today’s market, doesn’t look outrageously priced considering what you get. Setting aside whatever OS one might prefer the M1 MacBook Air is better than anything else priced below or equivalent to it, even when considering it’s two years old.

 

[I7guy]

Samsung doesn't just produce phones and computers but the big drop for them is not on the s23 series for example but their semiconductor business.

They produce and chips, ram, ssds, and processors and that is a big part of their business. These product segments have dropped with the economy.

Because people are buying less and chips, ram, sad are at the bottom of the food chain?

This is a completely different situation than Apple. You can claim that Apple is perfect but the reality is Apple has dropped the ball with software stability and hardware features while costing a premium price.

No it’s not perfect but they haven’t dropped the ball.

When you pay a lot people demand more.

I can easily give some examples. iOS 16 was a buggy mess when it dropped and there are several issues yet to be resolved.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/is-ios-16-and-the-iphone-14-launch-the-worst-ever-not-so-fast.2361027/

iPhones are copying Android features that have existed on Android phones for years instead of designing unique industry leading features they did in the past.

No. Apple innovates on features. 3D Touch, Apple Pay, Face ID are good examples.

The pill hole punch cut out is a terrible design and copies in a bad way the hole punch cutout that has existed on numerous Android phones for years as just one example.

Isn’t this what people wanted. Notch be gone? Now that’s it’s gone there’s this idiocy about copying android even though dynamic island is awesome.

Take a look at the iPhone 14 series. It is a mess. It used to be no matter what iPhone you bought you got the latest and greatest features and the only big difference was the screen size.

No it’s not.

Not so anymore. The iPhone 14 is almost exactly the same as the iPhone 13 with the same chip!

As the 4s was the same as the 4. The 8 was the same as the 7, etc. I can justify why the current generation is the same as the previous generation except for ?

The iPhone 14 max is $100 less than the Pro but it doesn't have the same camera system, it has a year old chip, it doesn't have Pro Motion or the ugly pill hole cut out that is supposedly cool. So you pay almost the same and all you get is a bigger screen. Who would buy that?

Sounds like get less, pay less. Good marketing strategy by apple.

Then if you actually want a decent phone you have to shell out $1k or more and you still don't even get a decent telephoto lens or real fast charging.

The base model iPhone 14 is a decent phone. If you want to end features, expect to pay top end prices.

The Mac's are all pretty good but the market for buying computers as a whole has dramatically shifted since COVID and lock downs, the economy has dramatically shifted and a lot of people just don't have extra money like they used to do buying a new Mac or iphone or iPad is a lot harder specially at the price points Apple is selling.

Taken as a whole. Lack of true hardware and software innovation, a lack of stability on iOS, a lack of pro features on Pro iPads, and cost is all a recipe for disaster.

Except the financials don’t bore this out.

Also in terms of privacy and advertising Apple almost introduced a back door into all of their OS with CSAM scanning which is a huge violation of trust,

I didn’t find that as other services already scan.

trying to put more ads and services is also a problem.

Well they are not trying, they are doing. And true I am not happy about it, but that’s how she goes.

Maybe Apple hasn't lost their way but they have certainly gone in some wrong directions and dropped the ball.

No they haven’t.

They are not innovating but following.

No they aren’t.

They have segmented to death every product line they have with all the Pro BS instead of just delivering the best in each product category it seems they try to squeeze out as much profit as possible and hold back as many features on purpose for no other reason than to get people to buy up.

More choices, this is 2023 not 2007.

All of this starts to piss people off.

Not it’s not.

Jobs is turning in his grave.

No he’s not.

I personally would love to see the end of "Pro" phones and tablets. It is ridiculous. Return to offering a simple product line with the best of everything and just charge for the larger size. Get rid of the "air" on MacBook and just have a MacBook and a MacBook Pro. Stop holding back features like Promotion just to push people into a higher cost bracket.

I could go on and on.

Sure, and for every point there’s a counterpoint. Pick your opinion.

There are many reasons for Apples poor sales performance

You call the last few warnings call poor?

but I think a lot more of it is self inflicted rather than just the economic market factors. More people are going to get fed up if they don't change some of the things I mentioned.

Maybe. Maybe not.

There will always be the die hard Apple fanatics who will empty their pockets gleefully but the rest of us will only take so much.

Sure and apple knows this. Vote with your $$$ if you are not happy.

 

[Technerd108]

Because people are buying less and chips, ram, sad are at the bottom of the food chain?

No it’s not perfect but they haven’t dropped the ball.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/is-ios-16-and-the-iphone-14-launch-the-worst-ever-not-so-fast.2361027/

No. Apple innovates on features. 3D Touch, Apple Pay, Face ID are good examples.

Isn’t this what people wanted. Notch be gone? Now that’s it’s gone there’s this idiocy about copying android even though dynamic island is awesome.

No it’s not.

As the 4s was the same as the 4. The 8 was the same as the 7, etc. I can justify why the current generation is the same as the previous generation except for ?

Sounds like get less, pay less. Good marketing strategy by apple.

The base model iPhone 14 is a decent phone. If you want to end features, expect to pay top end prices.

Except the financials don’t bore this out.

I didn’t find that as other services already scan.

Well they are not trying, they are doing. And true I am not happy about it, but that’s how she goes.

No they haven’t.

No they aren’t.

More choices, this is 2023 not 2007.

Not it’s not.

No he’s not.

Sure, and for every point there’s a counterpoint. Pick your opinion.

You call the last few warnings call poor?

Maybe. Maybe not.

Sure and apple knows this. Vote with your $$$ if you are not happy.

The "innovations" you mentioned are not new and I was referring to new innovations. What has Apple innovated on in the past couple releases?

Yes, people wanted the notch to be gone but not replaced with a worse design pill hole cutout. Then to hide the fact Apple said they would never use a hole punch cutout because their sensor system is too big they created dynamic island. It is laughable.

The notch looks aesthetically better than the pill cutout. Let me ask this, besides dynamic island what do you gain from the pill cut out over a notch? It doesn't give you any real screen real estate. A few pixels maybe?

Innovation would have been using a completely under display sensor system with a tiny hole punch just for the selfie camera. That would have been cool. Just the fact that someone made a thread to refute what many critics have said about the iPhone 14 release says something in itself.

The rest of your comments are rather petty one line attempts to argue by disagreement without anything to back up your opinion. Anyone can just say, "no it doesn't" and the rest of them but it doesn't make for a very good argument on your part.

You haven't really countered anything I have said other than to disagree. Which is fine but shows that you don't really have a good argument just that you don't agree.

It is like me saying that the sky is a bluish hue with tones of pink highlights in the sunset and you saying, " no it's not". Lol

If you don't understand the psychology behind product segmentation then probably best not to comment. It isn't more choices it is a way to push the customer to buy the highest price product in the line or they will be missing features that they want.

The base model iPhone 14 is a decent phone for someone who likes to pay for an iPhone 14 and get an iPhone 13.

When has pay less, get less every been good marketing? Ever? Why would any competitor cost less and give more and aggressively market those facts if what you said was true?

I have already voted with my money and I know a lot of other people who have loved Apple products for years who are doing the same thing.

The thing is most of us still have hope things will change because we have always liked Apple back when Apple did think different. But we have noticed a change we really don't like. So we voice out criticism along with changing our buying habits in hope Apple will change. We don't just say that's the way it goes. Nothing we can do.

You may think I am some Windows die hard or Android fanatic but that couldn't be further from the truth. I like Apple products but just because I like Apple doesn't mean that I burry my head in the sand when they make bad decisions and act like everything they do is good. Without pushing back Apple will never know when it screws up and will be it's own worst enemy. But keep drinking the Apple coolaid that they can do no wrong and everything they do is smart.😉

 

[I7guy]

The "innovations" you mentioned are not new and I was referring to new innovations. What has Apple innovated on in the past couple releases?

Yes, people wanted the notch to be gone but not replaced with a worse design pill hole cutout. Then to hide the fact Apple said they would never use a hole punch cutout because their sensor system is too big they created dynamic island. It is laughable.

Like it or not dynamic island is an innovation. You’re welcome to laugh at it, but it’s being carried over to the iPhone 15. Which imo, is going to be a runaway seller.

The notch looks aesthetically better than the pill cutout. Let me ask this, besides dynamic island what do you gain from the pill cut out over a notch? It doesn't give you any real screen real estate. A few pixels maybe?

It’s the start of reduction of the hardware required for face is and the camera.

Innovation would have been using a completely under display sensor system with a tiny hole punch just for the selfie camera. That would have been cool.

Sure that would be great if anybody has really done it with 100% success.

The rest of your comments are rather petty one line attempts to argue by disagreement without anything to back up your opinion. Anyone can just say, "no it doesn't" and the rest of them but it doesn't make for a very good argument on your part.

You offer absolutely no information other than some generalized opinions which is why it’s easy to counter each and every one of them.

You haven't really countered anything I have said other than to disagree. Which is fine but shows that you don't really have a good argument just that you don't agree.

Your argument is weak also.

It is like me saying that the sky is a bluish hue with tones of pink highlights in the sunset and you saying, " no it's not". Lol

If you don't understand the psychology behind product segmentation then probably best not to comment.

From the past few earnings call segmentation is a success it appears. Car manufacturers have been doing it for years and somehow people figure out how to buy cars. It’s the MR “experts” that dont understand.

It isn't more choices it is a way to push the customer to buy the highest price product in the line or they will be missing features that they want.

The base model iPhone 14 is a decent phone for someone who likes to pay for an iPhone 14 and get an iPhone 13.

When has pay less, get less every been good marketing? Ever?

it gets sales that otherwise would go to the competitors.

Why would any competitor cost less and give more and aggressively market those facts if what you said was true?

I have already voted with my money and I know a lot of other people who have loved Apple products for years who are doing the same thing.

Great. You should vote with your $$$. Apple doesn’t care (imo). They expect churn, lost customers and new customers.

The thing is most of us still have hope things will change because we have always liked Apple back when Apple did think different. But we have noticed a change we really don't like. So we voice out criticism along with changing our buying habits in hope Apple will change. We don't just say that's the way it goes. Nothing we can do.

You’re welcome to voice your criticism, but when it’s done in an anonymous internet site, expect replies. Apple in the future may or may not change to your liking. Who knows?

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Isn’t this what people wanted. Notch be gone? Now that’s it’s gone there’s this idiocy about copying android even though dynamic island is awesome.

People did want the notch gone but the notch is now an in-screen pill shaped notch that gets bigger depending on fancy animations. It’s still there, just marketed differently. If I had to choose I’d have the notch from the 13 series as it is a bit smaller and less intrusive in my opinion.

 

[Technerd108]

Like it or not dynamic island is an innovation. You’re welcome to laugh at it, but it’s being carried over to the iPhone 15. Which imo, is going to be a runaway seller.

It’s the start of reduction of the hardware required for face is and the camera.

Sure that would be great if anybody has really done it with 100% success.

You offer absolutely no information other than some generalized opinions which is why it’s easy to counter each and every one of them.

Your argument is weak also.


From the past few earnings call segmentation is a success it appears. Car manufacturers have been doing it for years and somehow people figure out how to buy cars. It’s the MR “experts” that dont understand.

it gets sales that otherwise would go to the competitors.

Great. You should vote with your $$$. Apple doesn’t care (imo). They expect churn, lost customers and new customers.

You’re welcome to voice your criticism, but when it’s done in an anonymous internet site, expect replies. Apple in the future may or may not change to your liking. Who knows?

"Great. You should vote with your $$$. Apple doesn’t care (imo). They expect churn, lost customers and new customers"

Then why did you say I should vote with my dollars if it is pointless? You kind of contradict yourself?

"Like it or not dynamic island is an innovation. You’re welcome to laugh at it, but it’s being carried over to the iPhone 15. Which imo, is going to be a runaway seller."

No dynamic island is not innovation, it is a stop gap measure until they get better tech. And just because it is going to be on the iPhone 15 doesn't mean that will be a feature that influence sales, rather the new 3nm processor, USB c finally, will be better reasons people will upgrade. It will sell well but higher pricing and a poor economy might put a damper on sales.

"You offer absolutely no information other than some generalized opinions which is why it’s easy to counter each and every one of them.
Your argument is weak also."

Last time I checked Macrumors was a forum internet site where people share opinions not scientific review and analysis. Lol I have given solid reasoning for all of my opinions not one line disagreements. You are not countering my opinions just disagreeing with them. There is a difference.

"From the past few earnings call segmentation is a success it appears. Car manufacturers have been doing it for years and somehow people figure out how to buy cars. It’s the MR “experts” that dont understand"

I didn't say that market segmentation was unique to Apple or that it didn't drive more profit their way. I said it was antithetical to the way Jobs created Apple products except in a few niche cases. He simplified the product lines but gave more features and charged accordingly. I think that is a much better strategy than nickel and dime your customers to squeeze every last dollar out of them and have a product just to hit every price point. It cheapens and degrades the overall product line in my opinion. And cars are not a good analogy.

"You’re welcome to voice your criticism, but when it’s done in an anonymous internet site, expect replies. Apple in the future may or may not change to your liking. Who knows?"

I don't mind when someone disagrees and has a solid reason and argument as to why I am wrong. I might change my mind and agree. What bothers me is an argument that is done just to have a counter point without any real meaningful reasoning behind. Someone has an opinion and just wants everyone to regurgitate their opinion or that other person is wrong.

Apple will do what makes them the most money. I can like it or not but I can certainly voice my opinion either way.

 

[Technerd108]

People did want the notch gone but the notch is now an in-screen pill shaped notch that gets bigger depending on fancy animations. It’s still there, just marketed differently. If I had to choose I’d have the notch from the 13 series as it is a bit smaller and less intrusive in my opinion.

Totally agree. They should have just reduced the size of the notch on the 14 like they did on the 13 from the 12, instead of the pill shaped cutout. Then once they get the tech right introduced a completely under display sensor that would have been really impressive.

 

[I7guy]

"Great. You should vote with your $$$. Apple doesn’t care (imo). They expect churn, lost customers and new customers"

Then why did you say I should vote with my dollars if it is pointless? You kind of contradict yourself?

"Like it or not dynamic island is an innovation. You’re welcome to laugh at it, but it’s being carried over to the iPhone 15. Which imo, is going to be a runaway seller."

No dynamic island is not innovation, it is a stop gap measure until they get better tech. And just because it is going to be on the iPhone 15 doesn't mean that will be a feature that influence sales, rather the new 3nm processor, USB c finally, will be better reasons people will upgrade. It will sell well but higher pricing and a poor economy might put a damper on sales.

"You offer absolutely no information other than some generalized opinions which is why it’s easy to counter each and every one of them.
Your argument is weak also."

Last time I checked Macrumors was a forum internet site where people share opinions not scientific review and analysis. Lol I have given solid reasoning for all of my opinions not one line disagreements. You are not countering my opinions just disagreeing with them. There is a difference.

"From the past few earnings call segmentation is a success it appears. Car manufacturers have been doing it for years and somehow people figure out how to buy cars. It’s the MR “experts” that dont understand"

I didn't say that market segmentation was unique to Apple or that it didn't drive more profit their way. I said it was antithetical to the way Jobs created Apple products except in a few niche cases. He simplified the product lines but gave more features and charged accordingly. I think that is a much better strategy than nickel and dime your customers to squeeze every last dollar out of them and have a product just to hit every price point. It cheapens and degrades the overall product line in my opinion. And cars are not a good analogy.

"You’re welcome to voice your criticism, but when it’s done in an anonymous internet site, expect replies. Apple in the future may or may not change to your liking. Who knows?"

I don't mind when someone disagrees and has a solid reason and argument as to why I am wrong. I might change my mind and agree. What bothers me is an argument that is done just to have a counter point without any real meaningful reasoning behind. Someone has an opinion and just wants everyone to regurgitate their opinion or that other person is wrong.

Apple will do what makes them the most money. I can like it or not but I can certainly voice my opinion either way.

Nobody is abridging your rights in these forums, but imo, your original discussion points lack specifity and are vague generalized criticisms. Other points I disagree with and of course the ad-hom regarding “segmentation”. “If you don't understand the psychology behind product segmentation then probably best not to comment.”

Innovation is a personal and sliding scale / to wit our different views on dynamic island. And I definitely welcome a factual debate, but this is an opinion based debate.

And finally Jobs is dead and while you may not like the way Tim Cook is running the company, many do. And of course the myriad of opinions around that.

 

[Technerd108]

Nobody is abridging your rights in these forums, but imo, your original discussion points lack specifity and are vague generalized criticisms. Other points I disagree with and of course the ad-hom regarding “segmentation”.

Innovation is a personal and sliding scale / to wit our different views on dynamic island. And I definitely welcome a factual debate, but this is an opinion based debate.

And finally Jobs is dead and while you may not like the way Tim Cook is running the company, many do. And of course the myriad of opinions around that.

I don't think I was vague but we can agree to disagree.

What facts do you want? I asked you what value do you get from a hardware and aesthetic perspective from a pill hole cut out vs a notch and you didn't answer? What other debate can you have other than opinions on a forum? Unless we are talking about specific specs like processor, type of ram, etc it is all just opinion?

Yes I do understand the founder of the company is dead but it doesn't mean we should just piss all over his legacy. Shouldn't Cook try to drive the company at least to some degree on Job's values rather than just simply profit. But Tim Cook is a very smart man and has done very well maximizing profits beyond what Jobs ever could. Whether that is good for Apple as a company is an open question.

Apple has become so successful because it was based on an alternative set of ideas to mainstream "PC's" of the day. It has always had a counter philosophy on the products they offered and introduced true innovations not just the same product with a different OS. iPod, iPad, iTunes, and much more were all wildly disruptive technology that transformed the market. You might be excited for solid state buttons or dynamic island but it is not on the same level of innovation that made Apple, Apple.

But this is just one person's personal opinion and as you already pointed out has no bearing whatsoever as to what Apple will do and is not even a blip on the radar in terms of customers or profits. But I don't think I am the only one. Maybe I am just too old and remember too much. None of it matters anyway because at the end of the day both what you said and what I said are just opinions. The only difference is the reasoning behind our opinions and that is self evident in what we both wrote.

 

[I7guy]

I don't think I was vague but we can agree to disagree.

Seems to me some of what was said has been internet talking points that have been around a while.

What facts do you want? I asked you what value do you get from a hardware and aesthetic perspective from a pill hole cut out vs a notch and you didn't answer?

I think dynamic island is a cool concept.

What other debate can you have other than opinions on a forum? Unless we are talking about specific specs like processor, type of ram, etc it is all just opinion?

Agreed.

Yes I do understand the founder of the company is dead but it doesn't mean we should just piss all over his legacy.

I’m sure you have your rational of why you believe “we are posing all over his legacy”. But Steve turned over the reigns to Tim. What does pissing over his legacy mean?

Shouldn't Cook try to drive the company at least to some degree on Job's values rather than just simply profit. But Tim Cook is a very smart man and has done very well maximizing profits beyond what Jobs ever could. Whether that is good for Apple as a company is an open question.

Cook as I see it is driving apple on Jobs’ values at the core of it as well as a company that has matured. Tim maximized profits by giving the largest segment of people the products and services they want; seemingly alienating a core group of fanatics. Of course the big question is if Jobs had lived could he drive apple successfully in changing times. We can only speculate.

Apple has become so successful because it was based on an alternative set of ideas to mainstream "PC's" of the day. It has always had a counter philosophy on the products they offered and introduced true innovations not just the same product with a different OS. iPod, iPad, iTunes, and much more were all wildly disruptive technology that transformed the market. You might be excited for solid state buttons or dynamic island but it is not on the same level of innovation that made Apple, Apple.

IPhone and iOS related services are apples cash cow. Tim has done an exceedingly good job, imo, of building these out, going all apple silicon, Apple TV+. Seems like a healthy dose of innovation to me.

But this is just one person's personal opinion and as you already pointed out has no bearing whatsoever as to what Apple will do and is not even a blip on the radar in terms of customers or profits. But I don't think I am the only one. Maybe I am just too old and remember too much. None of it matters anyway because at the end of the day both what you said and what I said are just opinions. The only difference is the reasoning behind our opinions and that is self evident in what we both wrote.

I agree, there are points and counter-points for both sides.

 

[Abazigal]

The "innovations" you mentioned are not new and I was referring to new innovations. What has Apple innovated on in the past couple releases?

Here's my unpopular take - we need to start looking beyond products innovations in a vacuum when it comes to evaluating these companies. In my opinion, innovation should not be solely confined to technology, but business model as well.

To use an example, take the first iPhone. None of the technologies used in the first iPhone were invented by Apple themselves, but Apple learnt how to package everything into a compelling product that made people willing to pay a premium for it. Likewise, Henry Ford did not invent the automobile, but he figured out how to manufacture it cheaply at scale and make it accessible to the masses.

Other examples of innovation that comes to mind: Apple designed their own ARM chips to enable the unique user experience in their computers that could not be had using processors sold by other vendors. AirPods solved the issue of pairing and latency in bluetooth. Apple Pay helped make payment transactions safer (and it's a combination of hardware, software and services), and it's telling that Apple would spend 5 years working on this, while Google tried and failed thrice in getting key stakeholders to adopt it. Today, Apple continues to work tirelessly behind the scenes to get more banks to support it, and even gets to earn a small cut from every Apple Pay transaction.

The latest LLM craze is another example of invention vs innovation. Someone came up with awesome technology in a lab, but the real innovation will come in the form of packaging it in a form factor that does not suck to use, making it accessible to the masses, and building a successful business model out of it.

This is what Apple does best. They figure out go-to-market, and they do this better than any other company in the world. Apple excels at the product - combining often existing technologies in new and innovative ways to develop a product that loads of people want. That's not an easy thing - if it were, every tech company would be another Apple - and those tech companies that Apple bought would've been titans in their own right.